If I can't have a VW TDI - I'm going full electric

freeman

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Location
OK
TDI
2003 JSW, 2009 Jetta sedan, to 2013 Passat SEL
Remember the E-tron only gets $4502 tax credit instead of the full $7500 like the Volt. I looked at electric costs where I live and pay 5-6 cents/Kwh at night so cost $1 to charge fully for the day. The Volt also uses the gas motor only as a generator (it has a bigger battery pack to get the full credit) so the electric motor is doing all the work moving the car so hopefully may be more reliable.
 
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k1xv

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Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Location
southern Vermont
TDI
09 TDI sedan, sold back 12/16. Present cars 2013 BMW X5 diesel, 2015 Corvette convertible
What fuel is being used to charge your car if the mix on the grid is 1/3 nuclear, 1/3 coal, and 1/3 natural gas? The answer is not 1/3 of each.

Electric utilities load their generation plants based on economic dispatch. The cheapest fuel plants run first until fully loaded, then the next cheapest fuel, and so on. So the fuel of the plant loaded up to charge your car depends on what is the marginal fuel used in the hour(s) you decide to charge your car. During off peak night hours, when most people would expect to charge at home, the fuel might be coal. But if you went to a charging station at 2 pm on a weekday, an on peak period for the utility, it might be a more expensive fuel. Perhaps natural gas.

Which fuel is cheapest these days is getting blurred. Natural gas is so cheap, and the plants which use it so efficient, that some natural gas fired plants are cheaper to run, per kwhr produced, than coal fired plants.
 

kuklaki

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Nov 7, 2015
Location
Georgia
TDI
2011 Audi A3 S-line//Non-TDI: 2016 Audi e-tron
Can I ask what you purchased for. E Tron is high on my list but not sure I can afford it.
MSRP was $43,875. Premium plus with the Bang &Olufsen. After negotiation it was $33, 875 plus tax, etc. That is not including the tax credit. I put $5k down and once I do the buyback I'll refi with another $5k so my final payment will be the same as I was paying on my used A3 TDI.
 

soccerpeople

Active member
Joined
Nov 6, 2015
Location
L.A.
TDI
2010 TDI Manual
I would also point out that as more people put solar on their roof and generate their own electricity, having an electric car makes even more sense. The technology is improving fast, and costs are going down, not up.
 

chadbag

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Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Location
Utah
TDI
2x 2013 JSW (1 manual BOUGHT BACK 12/20/16, 1 DSG BOUGHT BACK 1/14/17), Audi A3 e-tron gas-plugin-hybrid, gas Volvo V60
MSRP was $43,875. Premium plus with the Bang &Olufsen. After negotiation it was $33, 875 plus tax, etc. That is not including the tax credit. I put $5k down and once I do the buyback I'll refi with another $5k so my final payment will be the same as I was paying on my used A3 TDI.

That is a good deal. Better than I got. I got a Premium Plus with Technology and B&O and a couple stupid things like the box. The MSRP was $47540 IIRC and I got it for $39409 (15% plus $1k). Plus the tinted windows, which I did not know were on the car and weren't listed online, but were a dealer added item in the side bar, weren't part of the email negotiations, so I got that for $0. Add in the $4502 federal (and for my state another $1000) in tax credits it brings it down to $33907. (And with *my* current mix of driving, if it stays like this for the next 7-10 years, at the current price of gas, I estimate a $4k-$6k savings for fuel over the lifetime of the car compared to a pure ICE engine car. The bulk of my driving I can do in EV mode :).

I did not lease, but bought as I figure I will drive it 7-10 years. By then, EV technology might be such that a pure EV car makes sense for a primary car replacement. If I had leased for say 3 years, I'd have to then go again and lease another 3, and then again another 3 to get where I would be and the puny EV range suits 75% of my driving anyway (and I hope to keep it that way). I don't want to keep eating the first three years of depreciation on a car over and over.

The wife will drive the Volvo V60, which will be the primary family car as it carries more. With 2 kids we fit in the e-tron but you can't carry a ton of stuff for a whole family. I will miss the JSW in that regard but the Volvo comes close. Giving up 2x JSW in terms of size and convenience of carrying cr*p will be hard.
 

chadbag

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2x 2013 JSW (1 manual BOUGHT BACK 12/20/16, 1 DSG BOUGHT BACK 1/14/17), Audi A3 e-tron gas-plugin-hybrid, gas Volvo V60
I would also point out that as more people put solar on their roof and generate their own electricity, having an electric car makes even more sense. The technology is improving fast, and costs are going down, not up.
My uncle bought his Leaf (as a commuter, not primary family car) for that very reason. He installed a big solar array on his house so he basically powers his house plus the Leaf with it.

I plan on installing solar on my house when we build in the next few years (knock on wood).
 

ZippyNH

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Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
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2015 JETTA TDI SE
Co powered cars....gives new meaning to "rolling coal", that and all the areas destroyed for battery production....no choice comes without drawbacks and unintended consequences.....
Just saying, choose carefully. The politics of trying to get you to pick one fuel vs another has lots to do with this conversation...
Just like we are finding out that ethanol fueled cars cause more total co2 pollution than Dino fueled cars....it's all political....it's very hard to make a good honest choice cause all the data is skewed.
But few facts....battery technology still is pretty bad... improving...
But they are heavy....
Ever hear folks say take heavy stuff out of your trunk to improve mpg?!
The heavy weight if batteries reduce efficiency....the WATTS per mile used....sure...the CAR might be efficient, but the amount of power and best losses at the powerplant I'd not calculated...so the car gets a good number that's better than it should be, based on many assumptions....
Sure get solar panels to charge.... made with very toxic chemicals...imported from halfway round the world...
 

turbobrick240

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Nov 18, 2014
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maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
No need to dump on pv panels. They are environmentally friendly. Every single manufactured product we consume has associated environmental impacts. PV panels manufacturing impacts are far more than offset by the clean energy they produce over their lifetime.
 

coolbreeze

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Location
Troutman NC
TDI
2015 Golf TDI SE DSG - 2016 Tig SE for the wifey
MSRP was $43,875. Premium plus with the Bang &Olufsen. After negotiation it was $33, 875 plus tax, etc. That is not including the tax credit. I put $5k down and once I do the buyback I'll refi with another $5k so my final payment will be the same as I was paying on my used A3 TDI.
Was that a 2015 or 16? The 16's on the sites are looking like 45,865 MSRP.
 

chadbag

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Location
Utah
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2x 2013 JSW (1 manual BOUGHT BACK 12/20/16, 1 DSG BOUGHT BACK 1/14/17), Audi A3 e-tron gas-plugin-hybrid, gas Volvo V60
Was that a 2015 or 16? The 16's on the sites are looking like 45,865 MSRP.
2016 was the first MY in the US I believe. They did not generally become available until January of this year.
 

freeman

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Location
OK
TDI
2003 JSW, 2009 Jetta sedan, to 2013 Passat SEL
I got the Volt at a Small dealership in Oklahoma - though they have 300 cars on the lot and sell a lot through the Internet. They have a Volt LT listed at $28,900 (may be able to get more off that). Same sort of deal with hail damage but looked good. With rebate (make sure never titled as has more miles on it) would drop to $21,400. That would probably be close to used Gen 1 models. A dealership in OKC was talking about $3000 off mrsp so there should be some dealers willing to deal some.

http://www.williamscp.com/VehicleDetails/used-2017-Chevrolet-Volt-5dr_HB_LT-Stigler-OK/2796669353

I dealt with Jarret and Brandon.
 
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MrSprdSheet

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Location
East Coast
TDI
'09 JSW TDI
I would also point out that as more people put solar on their roof and generate their own electricity, having an electric car makes even more sense. The technology is improving fast, and costs are going down, not up.
We aren't dumping on solar panels, if we think this through. The average U.S. dwelling uses 30kwh/day. A commute long enough to economically justify an EV, say 20 miles out of L.A. will go through another 10-15kwh/day. So, ~45kwh average.

You need the panels and the batteries, to first store the energy and then lose ~10%. So, 50kwh is a reasonable need. Technology hasn't moved that fast with output from each ~3X5 foot panel (250-300watts). The challenge is roof space and paying for an Energy Storage Solution that can transfer watts from one battery to another (assuming you don't work nights). A 15kwh ESS, and maybe 40 solar panels of roof-space, and in CA maybe one can pull it off. Currently, I'd guess $55,000 might buy that setup (and I think I'm being generous, to cost out $1/watt solar after subsidy, and a $5k ESS).

There are a lot worse places than southern CA to try this, like most with less sun and more cold or heat.
 

bizzle

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May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
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2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
A 20 mile commute is closer to 8Kwh than 10-15, you won't need a battery system, and 16 panels cost me $15K before incentives (less than $8K after) that generates 25KWh per day and is more than enough to power my house and charge the eGolf after my wife's 40 mile commute.
 

bhtooefr

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Location
Newark, OH
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None
If you're charging at night, though, and want to avoid using coal/gas/nuke electrons to power your car, you'll need battery storage.

Otherwise, you're merely offsetting the non-renewable electron usage during the day.
 

MrSprdSheet

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Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Location
East Coast
TDI
'09 JSW TDI
Co powered cars....gives new meaning to "rolling coal", that and all the areas destroyed for battery production...
You don't think you're being just a little over the top?

You can do this yourself, at http://tinyurl.com/zwhvvfr. Use the filter button to select state. New Hampshire 2015:
coal 4.6%
nuke 47%
nat gas 30%
hydro 7%
biomass, oil, wind, solar make up an irrelevant remainder.

"Coal Cars"?

The CO2 from that mix, in contrast:
At 3 miles per kwh,
Straight Coal = 2,000lb/MWh, or 2lbs/kwh, or 2lbs/3 miles = .66lb/mile
At 4.6% of NH's mix, .66lb(.046)=.03lb/mile
Add natural gas, at 1lb/kwh = 30%(.33)= .1lb/mile, add together - .13lb/mile

20lbs/gallon, for petrol if we leave out exploration & production, the ~6kwh per gallon refining, and other stuff doing gas cars a favor. At 50 miles per gallon, you're still 20lb/50miles = .40lb/mile CO2

If you want to dig further, Zippy, the Congressional Research Service adds back upstream CO2 to gasoline to get closer to 32-36lbs/gallon, almost doubling again a car's CO2 output. Its a bigger gain than the ~10% electric losses EIA keeps track of, across our electric grid.
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42537.pdf (the link studies differences between light/sweet and heavy crude sources, like tar sands).

With the U.S. electric sector finishing its first year where coal dropped from half, to below a third of the national mix, it is getting really hard to indulge "coal cars". Because its so cheap, and EPA loves it, natural gas is taking over. Actually, that little NH exercise tells the story. More CO2 comes from natural gas, than coal, these days in the northeast. Time to shut off more nukes :confused:
 
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bizzle

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May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
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2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
If you're charging at night, though, and want to avoid using coal/gas/nuke electrons to power your car, you'll need battery storage.

Otherwise, you're merely offsetting the non-renewable electron usage during the day.
This is not true.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
2018 Tesla Model 3: 217,000 miles
I got the Volt at a Small dealership in Oklahoma - though they have 300 cars on the lot and sell a lot through the Internet. They have a Volt LT listed at $28,900 (may be able to get more off that). Same sort of deal with hail damage but looked good. With rebate (make sure never titled as has more miles on it) would drop to $21,400. That would probably be close to used Gen 1 models. A dealership in OKC was talking about $3000 off mrsp so there should be some dealers willing to deal some.

http://www.williamscp.com/VehicleDetails/used-2017-Chevrolet-Volt-5dr_HB_LT-Stigler-OK/2796669353

I dealt with Jarret and Brandon.
That car is listed as "used," so the federal tax credit probably doesn't apply.
 

saggii

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Apr 24, 2016
Location
Texas
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No longer - Jetta(s), A6
On another topic, there were very nice cpo deals to be had on Tesla a couple weeks ago. They do this kind of "incognito" sales every once in a while so those who are interested should definately look out for those.
 

MrSprdSheet

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Location
East Coast
TDI
'09 JSW TDI
A 20 mile commute is closer to 8Kwh than 10-15, you won't need a battery system, and 16 panels cost me $15K before incentives (less than $8K after) that generates 25KWh per day and is more than enough to power my house and charge the eGolf after my wife's 40 mile commute.
The eGolf doesn't deliver 5 miles per kwh (40 miles/8kwh). Actually, VW and Porsche's battery size, to range specs, are among the worst. Something like 14 miles for the Cayenne PHEV, with a 10+ kwh battery (~1.4). You'll do better. I'm sure. I try to be reasonable, when comparing pollution per mile specs at 3 miles per kwh. Weather is also on your side. But unless on a mission, without speed, heat or A/C, I think 5 are inflated. Some have gotten much worse ( http://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/e-golf). The eGolf 116MPGe score indicates ~3.9.

If you don't need a battery system, where are you? I ask because SCE and the public utilities of So Cal use more coal/NG than the north. No ESS, well, than you're using that supply.
 
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VeeDubTDI

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Jul 2, 2000
Location
La Conner, WA
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2018 Tesla Model 3: 217,000 miles
The eGolf doesn't deliver 5 miles per kwh (40 miles/8kwh). Actually, VW and Porsche's battery size, to range specs, are among the worst. Something like 14 miles for the Cayenne PHEV, with a 10+ kwh battery (~1.4). You'll do better. I'm sure. Weather is also on your side. But unless on a mission, without speed, heat or A/C, I think 5 are inflated. Some have gotten much worse ( http://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/e-golf). The 116MPGe score indicates ~3.9.
If you don't need a battery system, where are you? I ask because SCE and the public utilities of So Cal use more coal/NG than the north. No ESS, well, than your using that supply.
The Cayenne is a 4WD behemoth. It isn't fair to compare its energy consumption to an e-Golf or any other small car.

The Tesla Model X with optional 22" wheels struggles to get 2.5 mi/kWh. The Cayenne, with its additional engine and transmission losses, does even worse.
 

rfortson

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Aug 24, 2011
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Houston (Clear Lake)
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2012 Jetta Surfwagen TDI
On another topic, there were very nice cpo deals to be had on Tesla a couple weeks ago. They do this kind of "incognito" sales every once in a while so those who are interested should definately look out for those.
I noticed those, too. The prices look okay, but you have to remember that you're not getting that $7500 credit.
 

MrSprdSheet

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Location
East Coast
TDI
'09 JSW TDI
I noticed those, too. The prices look okay, but you have to remember that you're not getting that $7500 credit.
It was about Inventory, not CPO cars, which are eligible for the full $7,500 tax-credit. Tesla had always given discounts (mileage/age) for pre-owned cars (CPO). They do the same for "Inventory" cars (never titled, eligible for -7.5k). They also have discounted P85, and P??D cars as those new vehicles were superseded by better features/power. What they hadn't done in the past, was heavily discount one option, the $8,500 "75kwh upgrade".

It's weird. Tesla re-introduced a "60", in early summer, that actually had a 75kwh battery that was software limited. Then there was the "75" with the same 75kwh, for $8,500 more. The keystrokes to make a 60, a 75, is what the news of the quarter amounts to. They charged $1-2k to toggle up the ability to achieve those additional miles. Their costs for the battery were already sunk, so it's a little more understandable why they'd offer the discount to create more sales. Still, some are pretty p/o'd, Musk says he didn't know, blah, blah. No discounts for $5k AWD, and you had to take the $3k AP option (well worth it in most areas). So, everyone was still at least in the $70k's, after "discounts".
 

saggii

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Apr 24, 2016
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Texas
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No longer - Jetta(s), A6
I guess the reason for weird pricing (sometimes) is that they are their own dealership so they have to change the pricing based on supply and demand in order to make money.

We shall see how they do pricing on Model 3. I have a deposit on 1 and it would be interesting to see how they are pricing it.
I honestly don't have high hopes because first they are a new company and lacks manufacturing experience as other car makers (hopefully with new gigafactory will give them some edge); Secondly they have yet to make money to be able to make more cars( read - Model Y).
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
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Location
Newark, OH
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The discounts were ones done against policy, and the policy is that everyone gets the same price (with the exception of things like the $1000 off coupon for referrals, which everyone could get).
 
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