I still suck at driving a manual transmission

[JB05]

Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Ol'Rattler]

This thread really validates why we are all here. You might think I post because I am A humanitarian and am hell bent on helping people. Not even close.

The real reason I post is because it helps me understand technical things from other peoples perspectives which causes me to better understand my own assumptions of technical things.

So ya, If we can help the OP get were he needs to be, the educational value to all of us is really immense..............

 

[Cgiroux]

How much of the clutch do you guys cover with your foot? I mean, do you cover the clutch pedal entirely, or do you partially cover it with your toes? I think I am more comfortable with the former. I don't know if one way is politically correct or if it is personal preference.

You say you park on a crowned road and roll backwards when starting out. Sounds to me like you haven't yet figured out the engage/release point on your clutch and are spending way too much time between the floorboard and catch point (you are dragging the clutch out). Same thing will happen if you rest your foot on the clutch pedal.
Like many others have already said, practice in a flat parking lot. Taught my daughter to get smooth starts in just a few minutes and she has almost zero coordination (typical teenager). Try it, no throttle needed - complete stop with foot off the throttle, clutch all the way to the floor for the first start. Ease the clutch slowly, a millimeter at at time until you feel the clutch engage the pressure plate (should feel the vibration in your left foot), as soon as you feel that put the clutch back on the floor. Repeat a couple times. After a couple three attempts you should not have moved. Now try it again and let the clutch come up a little more until you start rolling forward, soon as you start moving put the clutch on the floor and let the car roll to a stop. Repeat a couple three times and you should now know the engagement point pretty well.
The only time my foot stays on the clutch pedal is from start out to the shift to second (usually because that is a quick shift) every other time my foot comes completely off the pedal.
Keep practicing, you'll get it.

 

[AVEngineer]

I like to use the ball of my foot to press the clutch in. Seat position is also important so when you depress the clutch pedal all the way you knee still has a slight bend in it and is not locked straight.

Learning to drive a manual is not easy but once you get the hang of it, it becomes fun and shifting is second nature like many have said here already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[JSWTDI09]

How much of the clutch do you guys cover with your foot? I mean, do you cover the clutch pedal entirely, or do you partially cover it with your toes? I think I am more comfortable with the former. I don't know if one way is politically correct or if it is personal preference.

How you place your foot on the pedal is completely unimportant. Use whatever part of your foot works best for you. This is actually somewhat dependent on the type and size shoe you wear. What is important is to practice enough so that your foot/leg "knows" exactly where the engagement point is for your clutch. With practice you will master that "magic spot" and all of a sudden, you know how to drive a manual transmission. Shifting gears is not the hard part, the hard part is starting from a stop. However, practice makes perfect. Taking a ride with someone who is adept at manuals might help with the finer points, but your real problem now is better solved with practice. Find an empty, flat parking lot and practice starting without touching the throttle. This will teach you the engagement point. Then all you have to do is to learn to coordinate your left and right foot together to give the car a little "gas" as your left foot reaches that engagement point. You are on the right track, just keep it up.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[CrazyWJ242]

same height as most of the guys here around 5'6"... the wife is shorter with longer legs, she sits higher up and closer than i feel comfortable engauging the clutch... feels too far away for me... you should have it set for a fast reaction time... and be able to stomp it in as well as the brakes to the floor without hesistation...

if your sitting in the gangster lean forget that and sit up proper till you get comfortable driving it without damaging it...

so the clutch, just think of it this way, the longer you have your foot on the clutch pedal and on the accelerator, the more harm you are doing... it should be one or the other...

as others have said here, you can often get going without touching the accelerator... i can only think of a handful of times i've actually started off reving it up... and they have all been on rather steep hills

my suggestion is to try to reverse your habit, try this...
let your foot off the clutch about half way with your foot still on the brake... when you start to feel it get grumpy thats where its ready to roll... slowly take your foot off the brake... this will save your clutch by not making it spin any faster than it has to...

if you screw up and dump the clutch with the foot hard on the brake it should stall out... if you just dump the brake, well you'll have a rough start without it taking off like a racecar anyways...

 

[MKT]

How much of the clutch do you guys cover with your foot? I mean, do you cover the clutch pedal entirely, or do you partially cover it with your toes? I think I am more comfortable with the former. I don't know if one way is politically correct or if it is personal preference.

I also use the ball of the foot for clutch and brake. The entire foot for the throttle. No toe action.

 

[pitviper33]

OP. Good luck. Keep trying. You'll get it.

My best advice is to find somebody that's truly good at this and learn from him or her in your own car. You had one offer for that in this thread already. Take it. Or find someone else. I understand the allure of learning in the stress-free, risk-to-car-free environment of internet forums. But the fact is to truly evaluate and critique your technique, any of us would need to be in the car to see it, hear it, and feel it first hand. After you do that, come back here and tell us all what helped.

And for what it's worth, I have no idea what all these people are talking about with the comments about TDIs being easy to drive. I've owned a lot of automobiles. At the moment we have 5. And 100% of them have always been manual transmission equipped. Our brand new VW TDI is the hardest thing to drive I've ever owned. It has terrible idle torque and stalls incredibly easily. Everything else we drive, from 60hp to 300hp, is stalled less frequently than that TDI. I don't mean that to be discouraging. You'll definitely get it. And once you do, you'll be pretty capable to drive just about anything with synchros.

 

[MontrealTDI]

It has terrible low end torque

That is funny because TDI's are known for their low end torque, I heartily disagree. If you lift the clutch to the friction point in first, it starts to roll for me. Easiest way to learn. Once you know where the friction point is in first, every other gear is a no-brainer.

 

[pitviper33]

That is funny because TDI's are known for their low end torque, I heartily disagree. If you lift the clutch to the friction point in first, it starts to roll for me.

Well yeah, but EVERY car does that.

edit: Also "low end" can mean different things. I should have said "idle torque". I'll go back and change that for correctness.

 

[Cgiroux]

How is being in neutral different than having the clutch pedal in? If I shift into neutral, can I let the clutch pedal out as fast as I'd like?

How would I be 'burning' the clutch if I am in gear and have the clutch pedal in? If the clutch pedal is in, the clutch is disengaged, right? So how is that causing wear to the clutch?

 

[ghohouston]

Best of luck to you buddy, just remember, you cant give up, you WILL get the hang of it of youre not discouraged. The first manual I ever drove was a 6 speed 6.0 powerstroke flatbed, and probably stalled it at every stop. And to be honest, the next few manuals I drove were the same story. I know for me, after I figured out the basic concept, just going out and driving on the road around other drivers is what really got me to figure it out. That and of course having seen others drive manuals throughout life helped. I think having an instructor is a great idea

 

[ghohouston]

How is being in neutral different than having the clutch pedal in? If I shift into neutral, can I let the clutch pedal out as fast as I'd like?
How would I be 'burning' the clutch if I am in gear and have the clutch pedal in? If the clutch pedal is in, the clutch is disengaged, right? So how is that causing wear to the clutch?

Throw out bearing

 

[localnet]

CG,

I remember my first experience with a manual, an old, not that old at the time, 3 on the tree Chevy pick up. I think I was around 16 and working as a porter at a car dealership... I figured it out pretty quick, thought it was pretty cool at the time...

One thing I have learned after 23 years of driving manual transmissions in diesel trucks, Peterbilt, Freightliner, etc... Is to drive by feel, be one with the motor and transmission and ignore the gauges. Sounds silly, but for me at least it works along with a handful of guys that I have taught how to drive these trucks over the years.

Listen to your motor, feel the clutch, let the mechanics of these components do the job they were intended to do. You are the one in control, your are the surgeon with the scalpel, the artist with the brush... Sounds silly, but you need to be one with the vehicle, that is the true joy of driving a stick, at least in my book.

 

[GCBUG00]

How is being in neutral different than having the clutch pedal in? If I shift into neutral, can I let the clutch pedal out as fast as I'd like?
How would I be 'burning' the clutch if I am in gear and have the clutch pedal in? If the clutch pedal is in, the clutch is disengaged, right? So how is that causing wear to the clutch?

Trans in N you can let the pedal come up quickly, but I make sure it is in N.
Burning the clutch if the pedal is IN? I'll say NO you are not burning the clutch. It is released with the pedal down the disc is floating on the input shaft and not being driven, not being touched by flywheel or pressure plate casting.
Release bearing turns continuously with engine rotation. That is a fact for this series of vehicles and for argument lets say all modern cars and p/u trucks.
True clutch freeplay went out roughly in the mid 80's with a few stragglers.
The hydraulic release system applies a preload to the bearing, it turns with the engine. With your foot on the pedal what you are changing is the force applied to the release bearing. About 1/2 way down, release load has peaked and drops off slightly at the floorboard.
I think it is safe to say there are 3 things that truly kill a clutch and cause premature failure:
1. Heat
2. Heat
3. Heat
What caused the heat can vary a bit, your foot reduces the clampload as you have your foot on the pedal engaging the clutch, normal wear, any contamination from a leak somewhere, hotrod driving. Loaning your car to someone that says they know how to drive a manual. Normal engine ambient heat is not the source of the clutch killing heat. A clutch MUST be able to survive in a hot environment. But your skills or lack of can change it from ambient to over 1600 deg F and actually start to make the casting surfaces "plastic" and smear.
Keeping the clutch running as cool as possible with a nice controlled brief FRICTION ZONE during engagement at right about engine idle speed will help alot.
CGiroux, good luck on mastering the fun interactive aspect of a manual.
Gary

 

[FlyTDI Guy]

Yes, that's another aspect of 'good' clutch driving. Don't sit there with your foot down (disengaged) for any longer than necessary. If you're going to be at a light for a minute, slip it into neutral and let the clutch up. Stop-n-go traffic is the worst because you can't reasonably do that. In this scenario, it's the throwout bearing that's the concern, not the disc. They are the least expensive component in the clutch package and it's a real shame when you have to remove the whole works at your cost for the sake of just a few dollar part. They are not known to be fragile of fail excessively but they are a bearing and only receive lubrication from the factory. They are expected to live on that for their entire life. Sometimes they don't. Any wear you can save them along the way is a good thing. I used to own MG's and they had a carbon bearing, not ball. I can't count how many people were faced with removing the engine to replace a $20 part because they 'rode' the clutch. Then you are faced with clutch condition... if it's already at +50% wear, you might as well replace it also. The cost of labor for a clutch job is a big incentive to adopt best practices when driving a manual transmission.

 

[GCBUG00]

I used to own MG's and they had a carbon bearing, not ball. I can't count how many people were faced with removing the engine to replace a $20 part because they 'rode' the clutch.

FlyTDI Guy,
Oh no, you gonna try to explain the carbon block bearing less clutch release bearing? Wait, let me get the popcorn, this will get some huh, what the heck comments.
Seen 'em never driven or serviced a carbon block release bearing. But the early Beetles has some similarities but did have a bearing element (at least the ones I saw) and contact ring.
Back to our regular program.
Keep your foot off of the clutch pedal unless you are actively using it.
Gary

 

[FlyTDI Guy]

Haha, nah... the OP has already gotten an overabundance of advice. If anything, I'd encourage him to try and search out some animated gif diagrams of how a clutch works so he could see just what's going on in there. I don't know what a clutch replacement might cost on an '11 but I'm sure it was significant. Coordination isn't a natural gift for everyone and some just have to work harder at it. I've heard the new CR's are easier to stall. There are other posts here about people having problems with it too. He just needs to practice as much as necessary and try to avoid any more damage in the process. Through reading all this, one might get the impression that manuals are fragile and finicky. Quite the opposite actually. They are very reliable and pretty robust but there are limits and a lot of that responsibility lies with the owner knowing good from bad and not abusing them.

 

[MKT]

The newer CRs are easier to stall because, as I understand, the computer won't let the engine drop below 600-700 rpms to prevent lugging. I test drove a manny Jetta and stalled pulling back into the lot, I was starting to slow and about the time I decided to downshift the computer shut the engine down. I guess lugging the engine can cause the DPF to soot up quickly.

 

[CopaMundial]

I guess lugging the engine can cause the DPF to soot up quickly.

Every time a TDI drops below 800rpm a baby seal dies.
I thought everyone knew that, I mean it's just basic science.

 

[jessabug]

Like many others have already said, practice in a flat parking lot. Taught my daughter to get smooth starts in just a few minutes and she has almost zero coordination (typical teenager). Try it, no throttle needed - complete stop with foot off the throttle, clutch all the way to the floor for the first start. Ease the clutch slowly, a millimeter at at time until you feel the clutch engage the pressure plate (should feel the vibration in your left foot), as soon as you feel that put the clutch back on the floor. Repeat a couple times. After a couple three attempts you should not have moved. Now try it again and let the clutch come up a little more until you start rolling forward, soon as you start moving put the clutch on the floor and let the car roll to a stop. Repeat a couple three times and you should now know the engagement point pretty well.

This. This. This.

This is how I learned. I learned in a 2.0 Beetle, but same basic principle. Started out learning in a flat parking lot. We had a community college near by so that's where I learned. Nice big, empty parking lot so I could get the basics of starting but also get going and shift into second gear. Started simply by learning how to start moving in 1st. As soon as I moved, stopped the car and did it again. Over and over until I started learning the engagement point. Then started moving and shifting into second. It only took a few hours of it. It wasn't until I really understood the engagement point that I even tried starting the car on a hill. But our driveway had a hill at the top, so my dad parked the car there and had me stop and start there. I only used the e-brake a few times. I never use it now and barely roll back. We lived in a really great area to learn manual. After I got the general hang of it, I drove the service roads next to the highway over and over and over. Stops and starts, 45mph speed limit so I could shift into all gears, and a few miles.

It took me a few weeks to really get proficient at it. I was driving to work a month later on busy local streets and I would stall out a decent bit on my way home in traffic. Probably once a day for a week or so. And that is certainly frustrating. But it really has become second nature. Do I still stall out cars? Yup. 8 years of driving a manual and it still happens.

Having a good teacher really helps. Its very hard to explain over the internet though. My dad started teaching me to drive, and then my boyfriend took over. They both were great. They had different methods, but I learned. I wouldn't want to learn on my own. You need to find a friend or something that can really sit with you and work with you over a period of days, rather than just taking a class.

Don't be afraid of stalling. It will happen. You will also learn the feel of the car about to stall and be able to save it.

Good luck!

 

[T100TDI]

I'm in no way perfect at driving one. I drove one a few years when first learning how to drive. I hadn't stalled in a long time and then went out to Colorado. That's humbling after being out in Iowa. Such a change.

 

[ezshift5]

Every time a TDI drops below 800rpm a baby seal dies.

I like you donation idea (This is a VERY helpful site). Looks like w/o PayPal no donation, right?

I reckon you baby seal analogy would be parallel to tree hugger bleeding? Otherwise, I don't get it (It's happened before)


ez (thinking about PayPal as a guest - - - donating IS a good idea!)

 

[kjclow]

Any suggestions on shifting technique to improve mileage? aka shifting RPMs, etc. I've yet to break 40mpg on my 2011 Golf wagon TDi and I am trying to find out why.

Best mileage I've found for a TDI is to shift at peak torque or around 1700 rpm. This is not the best for the turbo or probably the dpf because you're also right at the lugging point.

This. This. This.

This is how I learned. I learned in a 2.0 Beetle, but same basic principle. Started out learning in a flat parking lot. We had a community college near by so that's where I learned. Nice big, empty parking lot so I could get the basics of starting but also get going and shift into second gear. Started simply by learning how to start moving in 1st. As soon as I moved, stopped the car and did it again. Over and over until I started learning the engagement point. Then started moving and shifting into second. It only took a few hours of it. It wasn't until I really understood the engagement point that I even tried starting the car on a hill. But our driveway had a hill at the top, so my dad parked the car there and had me stop and start there. I only used the e-brake a few times. I never use it now and barely roll back. We lived in a really great area to learn manual. After I got the general hang of it, I drove the service roads next to the highway over and over and over. Stops and starts, 45mph speed limit so I could shift into all gears, and a few miles.

It took me a few weeks to really get proficient at it. I was driving to work a month later on busy local streets and I would stall out a decent bit on my way home in traffic. Probably once a day for a week or so. And that is certainly frustrating. But it really has become second nature. Do I still stall out cars? Yup. 8 years of driving a manual and it still happens.

Having a good teacher really helps. Its very hard to explain over the internet though. My dad started teaching me to drive, and then my boyfriend took over. They both were great. They had different methods, but I learned. I wouldn't want to learn on my own. You need to find a friend or something that can really sit with you and work with you over a period of days, rather than just taking a class.

Don't be afraid of stalling. It will happen. You will also learn the feel of the car about to stall and be able to save it.

Good luck!

This is how I taught both girls to drive a stick. With the oldest, there was a lot of subdivisions going in around us so after the parking lot, we went to the new neighborhoods. All streets were in with traffic signs but no cars or people. It also turned out to be a great place to try stopping and starting on a hill. This proved to be tricky in the beetle since I could not tell if she was in third or first from the passanger's seat. The youngest was picking it up but won't drive on the street. I was teaching her in my GMC canyon and her legs are too short to fully engage the clutch. She got the basic idea but not comfortable enough to drive on the street. No other manuals at home now, so she'll have to wait for us to replace a car.

OP, you really only have two choices. Stick with it, I'm sure you'll figure it out. You just have to stop doubting yourself. Or trade it in on a DSG.

 

[localnet]

The newer CRs are easier to stall because, as I understand, the computer won't let the engine drop below 600-700 rpms to prevent lugging. I test drove a manny Jetta and stalled pulling back into the lot, I was starting to slow and about the time I decided to downshift the computer shut the engine down. I guess lugging the engine can cause the DPF to soot up quickly.

Thanks for clearing that up, and here I thought it was me! She did that to me three times, real embarrassing to say the least. Now I just ride the clutch a bit and give her fuel, which I do not like to do, as I can see the clutch not lasting like I am used to. Like never having to replace "used to".

 

[Phantomofheat]

I park on a somewhat crowned road and I don't believe I can move forward with only the clutch. Instead I roll backwards. So I need to give it a little gas first (maybe 1K RPM?) but again, I linger.

I still think that playing around with my seat distance might help at all.

I need to also practice downshifting because I notice my right turns are excessively wide. =/ I'm on my way to work, going straight, I've just shifted into 3rd gear and then a couple seconds later comes a sharp right turn on a very slight hill into a parking lot. To be fair it is a small entrance, but I am partially in the way of the left side where a car would exit from.

If you are rolling back what you need to do is practice on a very slight hill or flat ground will work.

Place the car in neutral let off the brake so it will start to roll back, now press the brake in just enough to hold its place and no more. Clutch in and selector in first now ease the clutch out till you feel the car start to squat down that is the friction point. If you let the clutch out a little more the engine should over come the brakes and move forward. At that time you can let off the brake and you will be moving forward. At this time you can ease the clutch out the rest of the way as slowly add fuel, as you practice you will get the hang of how fast you can ease the clutch out.


Now for the 1-2 shift this was the hardest for me to do smoothly. The only thing that I can say is wait for the RPM to drop before releasing the clutch. On my 02 if I shift at 2500 in to 2nd the RPM will be at 1000 and it seems like it takes an extra half a second or so to slow down the revs compared to all other gears.

If you feel embarrassed having a jerky shift with people in the car or the wife keeps saying "See this is why I don't want a stick" then just rev the car in first to 3000 and skip to 3rd.

Down shifting is fun and you will get the hang of it by blipping the throttle with the clutch in to rais the rpm about 1000. So if you are in 4th at 2000 and want to go to third you would clutch in shift into 3rd and then tap the throttle so the rpm is at 3000 and let the clutch out smoothly.

You can practice that easily on the hw with little to no traffic just get to 50-60 mph shift to neutral let the rpm drop to idle now tap the throttle so you hit the rpm that you were at to maintain the selected speed. After doing that try doing it and slowly releasing the clutch to put it back in gear.

Last never bother down shifting to 1st unless under or almost at 5mph, just use second.

 

[rotarykid]

If you are rolling back what you need to do is practice on a very slight hill or flat ground will work.
Place the car in neutral let off the brake so it will start to roll back, now press the brake in just enough to hold its place and no more. Clutch in and selector in first now ease the clutch out till you feel the car start to squat down that is the friction point. If you let the clutch out a little more the engine should over come the brakes and move forward. At that time you can let off the brake and you will be moving forward. At this time you can ease the clutch out the rest of the way as slowly add fuel, as you practice you will get the hang of how fast you can ease the clutch out.
Now for the 1-2 shift this was the hardest for me to do smoothly. The only thing that I can say is wait for the RPM to drop before releasing the clutch. On my 02 if I shift at 2500 in to 2nd the RPM will be at 1000 and it seems like it takes an extra half a second or so to slow down the revs compared to all other gears.
If you feel embarrassed having a jerky shift with people in the car or the wife keeps saying "See this is why I don't want a stick" then just rev the car in first to 3000 and skip to 3rd.
Down shifting is fun and you will get the hang of it by blipping the throttle with the clutch in to rais the rpm about 1000. So if you are in 4th at 2000 and want to go to third you would clutch in shift into 3rd and then tap the throttle so the rpm is at 3000 and let the clutch out smoothly.
You can practice that easily on the hw with little to no traffic just get to 50-60 mph shift to neutral let the rpm drop to idle now tap the throttle so you hit the rpm that you were at to maintain the selected speed. After doing that try doing it and slowly releasing the clutch to put it back in gear.
Last never bother down shifting to 1st unless under or almost at 5mph, just use second.

Good post! One of the reasons no automatic will ever be as efficient as a manual in the hands of a well trained driver is our brains, we can pick & choose what gears are needed so not using the ones not needed for a given situation. Something that to date no ECU can match, and I believe it never will..........

You can pick and choose the gears that needed to get up to speed you desire. Once that speed is reached you then get into the highest gear available skipping the gears not needed. All automatics are sequential shifters, even our beloved & beguiled DSGs, that wastes fuel in many situations.

I have years of hardly ever using 4th on most 5 speeds, 1st to just get moving, then maybe second for a little bit or skipping it all together some times then to 3rd to get up to speed then 5th to roll on.......

The only time I use 4th or 5th in a 6 spd is on a hard acceleration to get up to speed quickly like is needed sometimes to merge into higher speed traffic up a grade to get on a freeway.

I have years of very good mpgs clocked on city only or mixed tanks in all types of vehicles gas & diesel in manual & automatic versions. On city only & mixed most of the time in just about anything I can get higher mpgs compared to higher speed constant highway travel. The highest mpgs for me are on lower speed loops, below 65-70 most of the time. In my maximum clocked tanks in 1Z, ALH, & PDs there is a lot 30-35, 40-45 and some 60-70. I have topped 60 mpgs several times in all but the PDs, high 50s just under 59 maximum in the PDs. I have broken 55 a few times in a PD DSG but that took a lot of effort, above what I am comfortable with in weather that allowed me to forgo ac use (spring & fall on summer fuel HSD).

 

[MichaelB]

Why is it that when ever it comes up on these forums we get a blast of manual transmissions are better and those who drive are smarter. Maybe I just like a car that shifts it's self and don't need another lecture about how smart the stick shift guys are and how stupid and lazy those who drive an autobox are. After all the DSG was designed for racing. Are all the current race car drivers stupid and lazy?

 

[pitviper33]

Why is it that when ever it comes up on these forums we get a blast of manual transmissions are better and those who drive are smarter. Maybe I just like a car that shifts it's self and don't need another lecture about how smart the stick shift guys are and how stupid and lazy those who drive an autobox are. After all the DSG was designed for racing. Are all the current race car drivers stupid and lazy?

Whew! Are you sure you're in the right thread? Nobody here is making any claims about correlations between driver intelligence and transmission choice. Regardless, I hope you enjoy your automatic [race car] transmission.

 

[40X40]

Why is it that when ever it comes up on these forums we get a blast of manual transmissions are better and those who drive are smarter. Maybe I just like a car that shifts it's self and don't need another lecture about how smart the stick shift guys are and how stupid and lazy those who drive an autobox are. After all the DSG was designed for racing. Are all the current race car drivers stupid and lazy?

Driving a manual is a matter of competence, not stupidity or laziness. You either can do it, or you cannot. Some can do it better than others and some cannot do it at all.

No Big Deal.

Bill