Hydrogen fuel cell electric cars

nwdiver

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You'll know a manufacturer is serious about fuel cells when they make one with a plug... it's already a BEV... there's no reason to not add a charger so you can make it ~50 miles without using H2. Then you could still charge at home and only refill with H2 for longer trips.

Adding a plug would also make FCEVs far more viable until there's more refueling locations.
The Mirai was a joke. Its true purpose was to serve as FUD to hold off the demise of ICE. A lot of Mirai drivers had to go ~30 miles or more to refuel...
 

meerschm

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The guy who wrote the article does assume some battery for regen braking.

plug-in would not seem out of the question.

he also sees a mix, BEV, fuel cells....

will be an interesting 20 years or so.

part of the challenge is H2 sources other than reformed nat gas. no real long term reason distributed solar could not be used for H2 generation. all a matter of costs.
 

gulfcoastguy

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That might work out if you are in certain parts of California and never drive more than 200 miles from those parts. Electric plugs are already everywhere even if public chargers are a bit scarce.
 

theprimer

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Although I like the idea of hydrogen fuel cells powering cars, I have to say that it doesn't look too feasible. Tesla on the other hand are really blazing a trail with those lithion ion batteries. I'd put my money on those if I had to.
 

VeeDubTDI

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I don't see hydrogen being a solution to anything in the near future. It's too energy-intensive to produce and there is essentially zero fueling infrastructure. Sure you can add infrastructure, but hydrogen fueling stations are incredibly expensive.

It makes far more sense, in my opinion, to develop battery electric vehicles. Car charging infrastructure is cheap and readily available, and expanding the grid and making it smarter are attainable goals in the near future. BEVs can and will be an integral part of a smart national electrical grid - hydrogen, not so much.

The only situation where I can see hydrogen making more sense than BEVs is if it's determined that battery production is unsustainable and producing and storing hydrogen is a more practical alternative.
 

meerschm

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I do not see it as an either/or choice.


the point is, that for some applications, H2 tanks and fuel cells may make sense as an alternative to ever-larger batteries.

yes, there currently is no infrastructure, and the production of H2 is mostly from Natural gas, and is not very efficient, but that is today.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Why not just burn the natural gas either directly in an ICE or use it to generate power to the grid? Natural gas to H2 is probably one of the least efficient ways of generating forward propulsion.

Or - natural gas microturbine range extender with a moderately sized battery pack (as opposed to a giant battery pack) in something like OTR trucks, trash trucks and large delivery vehicles.
 

bhtooefr

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And electrolysis is horrifically inefficient, and methane is more efficiently used in a giant ICE to generate electricity than used to produce hydrogen for a fuel cell (not much more efficient, but...)

The reason why Nikola Motor is using hydrogen instead of natural gas is for noise reasons, microturbines are loud. (And, they're using a natural gas microturbine in markets where hydrogen infrastructure isn't available.) I'm wondering if a spark-ignited piston ICE running on natural gas might work better, though...
 

meerschm

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http://energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-processes

Discusses a couple options.

when the alternative is dumping excess capacity, electrolysis makes more sense.

Potential for synergy with renewable energy power generation
Hydrogen production via electrolysis may offer opportunities for synergy with variable power generation, which is characteristic of some renewable energy technologies. For example, though the cost of wind power has continued to drop, the inherent variability of wind is an impediment to the effective use of wind power. Hydrogen fuel and electric power generation could be integrated at a wind farm, allowing flexibility to shift production to best match resource availability with system operational needs and market factors. Also, in times of excess electricity production from wind farms, instead of curtailing the electricity as is commonly done, it is possible to use this excess electricity to produce hydrogen through electrolysis.
 
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VeeDubTDI

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That would be a good use of the electrolysis process, but I have to wonder if that is more efficient than a smart grid charging a bunch of conventional battery banks, BEVs, and heat storage banks during those same times of surplus renewable energy generation (all while utilizing existing electrical infrastructure).

Building hydrogen generators to essentially absorb surplus generation doesn't seem particularly sustainable.

Sorry, not trying to be a hydrogen poo-pooer, just thinking that the investment might be better-made elsewhere like upgrading and modernizing what we already have.
 

Powder Hound

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Not only all the above, but what many people fail to mention, or don't understand, is that hydrogen storage is problematic at best. You can't store hydrogen for any real length of time because the molecules are so small they run out of the tank walls in between the molecules of the tank wall itself. Metal tank walls? Meh... not only will the hydrogen leak out, but then it embrittles the wall.

So you are faced with the losses to generate the hydrogen, then the losses to transport and store it before it runs out. In the entire cycle of things, hydrogen by itself is notoriously inefficient in the parts of all the process before it even gets a chance to generate energy that you can use. Better to use all that extra wind energy to feed in coal and water and come out with liquid hydrocarbon fuel and oxygen as the end products.

And no, I don't have the process to do it. But it makes more sense than to run around with tanks of highly volatile H2 gas running around on the streets.

PH
 

El Dobro

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I find it very easy to store electricity at home. :D
 

Powder Hound

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Yeah, right now, batteries are about the best we have after liquid fuels.

The real advantages a liquid fuel has is that you only carry the fuel. The oxidizer you need to complete the combustion event to generate energy you pick up in the air along the way; essentially it is free. And the environment also has the ability to absorb the combustion products produced, which are also expelled along the way. You don't have to carry them with you.

In a battery, the energy density is much more limited and you have to carry the box with you all the way. You can refill it a very large number of times, but in essence it is the same box that you start with. Still heavy. Relatively short range on the travel distance before recharge, too.

Fuel cells offer an increase in efficiency, but a number of problems still need to be worked out. For instance, manufacturing cost is a big problem, and the cells are still hypersensitive to poisoning from less than perfect reagents. Maybe at some point in the future, a cell can be perfected that will be cheap if manufactured in mass quantities and relatively tolerant to the dirty real world.

One can hope, anyway. I am not sure at this point my remaining life span will allow me to see these modern miracles reform the modes of transportation of the masses. I'll have to stick to my carbon fiber bicycle for super efficient transportation until then.

Cheers,

PH
 

meerschm

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One other advantage of H2 (and CNG) is the decreased time required to fuel, compared to charging a battery. this advantage is shared with liquid fuels.

it is true that it is more challenging to store compressed gas vs liquids in the car, and that H2 gas has additional challenges, but not beyond reason and technology development to solve.

one advantage of H2 from a safety point of view, is that the gas rises, so leaks do not pool in a leak situation.
 

Dave_D

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Assuming they are ever able to scale it to automotive level, methanol fuel cells would be a much better base for a car.

Dave
 

El Dobro

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A Toyota Mirai can probably be had easy enough. They don't seem to be flying off the lots.
 

tikal

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Natural gas generating electricity or powering fleet vehicles seems a more bang for the money including environmental hidden costs of energy (search for this the very in depth scientific paper using Argonne National Labs GREET model). In this way the top three environmental energy choices for passenger transportation are:

1) Electrical Vehicles with electricity coming from natural gas power generators being one of the best choices.
2) Vehicles powered directly with natural gas (CNG). Mostly fleet related.
3) Diesel vehicles (post 2007)
 

GetMore

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I have something to add regarding H2 fueling stations:
I worked for a fuel cell company, and they were able to use fuel cells to create H2 from natural gas and compress it to the proper pressure. The mail fuel cell would produce power and heat for the building or facility where it is located, and the H2 would almost be a byproduct.
On-site generation is much easier and safer than trucking and storage, and since the equipment could be placed into a seavan (ocean container) sized area it wouldn't take up too much real estate. It is an option that makes it much easier to create fueling stations.
I would expect the rollout of H2 fuelling stations to be rather similar to that of electric vehicle charging stations. It won't happen overnight, and will be regionally driven, but as demand increases it will pick up some momentum. Just think about diesel pumps at gas stations, and how rare they used to be, but now it's at a majority of them.

That fuel cell company also has some that they can run backward and forward, so to speak. They can produce H2 from "excess" electricity from solar or wind farms, store it until generation drops off, and then produce power from that H2. The idea is to reduce the load on the grid by leveling the generation/demand.
It is not as efficient as anyone would like, but it appears to be the most efficient method so far. I am not sure when they plan to put them in use yet.
 

nwdiver

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I would expect the rollout of H2 fuelling stations to be rather similar to that of electric vehicle charging stations.
One HUGE difference is that people no where near a charging station can still buy an EV. It's not ideal but the outlet in your garage is sufficient for most people to use an EV. Can't do that with a fuel cell vehicle... which is another reason I don't understand why they make fuel cell cars that don't have a plug... they should ALL be a PHEV... they already have a battery... go a step further and add a plug.
 

bhtooefr

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The Mirai actually does have a CHAdeMO plug... but not for plug-in, instead for plug-out - that is, powering your house off of the car.

That said, the Mirai has the battery out of the Camry Hybrid - you're not getting any meaningful range from plugging it in. The Clarity's battery isn't much bigger.
 
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