How to inspect PD cam and lifters

milehighassassin

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Location
Fort Collins, CO
TDI
2005 Golf TDi PD, Reflex Silver
hid3 said:
Should I do the inspection on a cold engine or is it ok to do it on a hot engine? Anyone?
It would be easier on a cold engine, mostly because your oil will hopefully had a chance to settle, easier to see the cam and working on a hot motor sucks.
 

zanakas

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Location
PA
TDI
2005.5 Jetta 160k - original cam, clutch
You'll probably still need to clean the oil off of the followers a bit to get a good look at them. The oil stays put (and that's a good thing).
 

whitedog

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Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
milehighassassin said:
Would this be an opportunity to grind the cam; or don't even bother?
What I have heard for what I consider reliable sources is that a cam is only hardened to something like .0002 inch. if it can be rehardened after polishing, it should be OK, otherwise, new is best. I'm no machinist so take that all with a grain of salt.
 

dukku

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Location
Romania
TDI
1.9 PD-TDI AJM
I have changed the camlifters in november .
A friend of mine that owns a 2002 Bora (jetta in U.S.) , same engine as mine (AJM 1.9 TDI 85 kw pumpe-duse) did same as me and replaced the camlifters with new INA while I replaced orifinal INA with FOLE camlifters.
Both of us had car-startig problems after this change.
Yesterday he opened the engine and inspected the camlifters. They looked like this:

The bad one is the one weared for 2 months wile the good one is the one used for 300 000 km .
Since the first day I mounted new camlifters I begin to get more disapointed by the way my car starts in the morning . The apogee was in january when I had to pull the car at - 17 degrees , after 2 minutes of cranking with smoke and no start.
So I decide to look at mine's and ...surprise !After 15 000 km they are looking bad.

The one i weared for 400 000 km looks like new . I changed them because the noise the engine were making at the first start in the mornig for 10-15 seconds , till the oil got to them.
What could be the cause of this intense wear in just 15 000 km? Did I do something bad when I mounted them?
Any advice?
 

Dimitri16V

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Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
only if you started the engine immediately after changing the lifters. There is a recomendation to let it sit for 1 hr to bleed down.

Did anyone ever noticed that the cam lobe sides are not champfered ? it seems that the PD cam lobes are slightly offset to the center of the lifter.
 

Dimitri16V

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Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
whitedog said:
They need to be offset in order for the cam to turn the followers.
I know but how would that affect the distribution of downward force to the lifter which in turn can affect the rotation of the lifter ?
 

whitedog

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Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
They are farther off center than on an ALH, so it looks to me like the cam would have more sideways motion across the follower. This is one theory that I have, but I sure don't know how to prove it. :(
 

hid3

Banned
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Location
Lithuania, Vilnius
TDI
Golf V 1.9 TDI-PD 105 HP
dukku said:
I have changed the camlifters in november .
A friend of mine that owns a 2002 Bora (jetta in U.S.) , same engine as mine (AJM 1.9 TDI 85 kw pumpe-duse) did same as me and replaced the camlifters with new INA while I replaced orifinal INA with FOLE camlifters.
Both of us had car-startig problems after this change.
Yesterday he opened the engine and inspected the camlifters. They looked like this:

The bad one is the one weared for 2 months wile the good one is the one used for 300 000 km .
Since the first day I mounted new camlifters I begin to get more disapointed by the way my car starts in the morning . The apogee was in january when I had to pull the car at - 17 degrees , after 2 minutes of cranking with smoke and no start.
So I decide to look at mine's and ...surprise !After 15 000 km they are looking bad.

The one i weared for 400 000 km looks like new . I changed them because the noise the engine were making at the first start in the mornig for 10-15 seconds , till the oil got to them.
What could be the cause of this intense wear in just 15 000 km? Did I do something bad when I mounted them?
Any advice?
Did you change only the camlifters or also the camshaft in November? Also, as I can see your (and your friends) camlifters were metal-shiny, not black in colour, right? What oil were you using after the replacement?
 

dukku

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Location
Romania
TDI
1.9 PD-TDI AJM
We changed the camlifters only.
My friend replaced again the destroyed-"new" camlifters with the old ones that came as OEM yesterday and the engine starts normally.
I don't have the old ones anymore. All camlifters are shiny.
I use valvoline 5w30 505.01 oil . My friend use castrol 505.01(don't know what grade isi it ).

P.S.
Dimitry , check out the picture! You were right about the cams who pushes on camlifters.
 
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hid3

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Apr 28, 2007
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Golf V 1.9 TDI-PD 105 HP
I guess that was your mistake. Changing only lifters is a bad idea, since cam lobes can have a 'wear pattern'. That would explain why new lifters got chewed so quickly. Camshaft + ALL lifters should be changed at once. Besides, new lifters should be black in colour, they seem to be an 'updated version'.
 

dukku

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Jan 22, 2008
Location
Romania
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1.9 PD-TDI AJM
hid3 said:
I guess that was your mistake. Changing only lifters is a bad idea, since cam lobes can have a 'wear pattern'. That would explain why new lifters got chewed so quickly. Camshaft + ALL lifters should be changed at once. Besides, new lifters should be black in colour, they seem to be an 'updated version'.
I keepd one camlifter from the first ones and you got to belive me . The 400 000 km camlifters have NO patterns. Tomorrow will send a picture. Tey look just like new ones. They were just noisy till the oilpressure "inflates" them.
 

Dimitri16V

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Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
if the cam lobes are OK , you could just change lifters. That's a big if , though. I have changed camshafts on gasser VWs and kept the lifters and vice versa.

My initial theory was that those lifters don't spin as well as they are supposed which would result in the wear we see. If the lobe is narrower than usual, it would seem essential to be centered on the lifter.

If this is a design problem, there is no way VW never came across it during testing.
 

hid3

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Well, what other explanation wouold be to support that one lifter survived 400k km and others died? Let's say #1.1 lifter was OK so it wasn't replaced. Means other 7 were replaced because they were damaged. After 15k they need replacement again since they're damaged but that first one is still ok. I'd suspect some cam influence here...
 

dukku

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Romania
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1.9 PD-TDI AJM
Maybe I did't exprimed correctly :
The whole 8 camlifters that I used for 400 000 km had no pattern and scratches when I replaced them . The reason of replacing was that they were noisy when the engine was started after 5-6 hours of repause .
In november I replaced all 8 INA camlifters with 8 new FOL camlifters . Every camlifter that I changed was normal weared (just side wear due to piston-like movement).
 

hid3

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Oh sorry, misunderstood you. I thought your camlifters were damaged. Then the reason of new failure seems very strange....
 

dukku

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Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Location
Romania
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1.9 PD-TDI AJM
If it has allready been asked please delete it:
Is there any special procedure to mount the camlifters?
1 Should I bleed them out of oil before mount them?
2 After mounting everything back is there anthing special to do or just start the engine?
 

DanG144

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Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
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2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
Have you closely inspected your cam? With the lifters that badly worn, I would expect unacceptable cam wear. Look very closely at the chamfered edge around the lobes. Is the chamfer the same width all the way around? Is the tip worn down?

A worn cam will probably go through a set of lifters very rapidly.

You definitely need to coat them with a cam break in oil or paste. VW makes something that they use (or should use) when breaking in a new cam and lifters. Check with the racers in your area.

You might want to use a break in oil with high values of antiwear additive (or add some more of your own, such as ZDDP).

From the casual reading on this forum, I would say you need to do some more reading before you put it together and start it. I am pretty sure there is a special RPM profile that you want to use to break it in. And there may be a need to slowly tighten the cam bearing halves down during assembly.
 

dukku

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Romania
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This is the deepest patern that I got on the old camlifters that last for more than 300 000 km and I changed them in november and the car started to make starting troubles and noises 2-3 days after I made the change .


I only had tme to inspect them last week but they turn to junk few houndred kilometers after I mounted them and they keep working worst day after day.After 15 000 km they look like this :


Will Take pictures to the camshaft to see every cam so you can all see and give me a piece of advice. A new cam is betwen 300 and 1000 dollars and I an not in the mood to spend extra money .
 
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whitedog

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Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
dukku said:
This is the deepest patern that I got on the old camlifters that last for more than 300 000 km and I changed them in november and the car started to make starting troubles and noises 2-3 days after I made the change .


I only had tme to inspect them last week but they turn to junk few houndred kilometers after I mounted them and they keep working worst day after day.After 15 000 km they look like this :


Will Take pictures to the camshaft to see every cam so you can all see and give me a piece of advice. A new cam is betwen 300 and 1000 dollars and I an not in the mood to spend extra money .
Did you change the cam when you changed those followers the first time?

I don't see what the problem is with that first follower.
 

dukku

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Romania
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the fist followers were changed because they became noisy at startup till they were refilled with oil after 5-6 hours of repause . The engine was making a claka-claka noise for few secconds .That one in the picture bleeds oil if I only squeeze it with 2 fingers.
I haven't replace the camshaft ever on this car ;it is the original one.
This picture wast taken in november when I replaced the lifters:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7696/161120082940rk1.jpg



Moderator note: Post edited due to oversized picture requiring mega sideways scrolling :)
 
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dukku

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Jan 22, 2008
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Romania
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1.9 PD-TDI AJM
Finally I have made the big step. Yesterday I dismounted the camshaft and it turned to be true the thing I didn't wanted to .All 8 camlifters were junk and 2 cams were badly damaged so I had to order a new camshaft.


The cams turned to be rectangular instead of smooth shape so the new camlifters could't resist more than few houndred kilometers .3 months ago when I replaced the camlifters the camshaft were ok in only 15 000 km it turned into junk .
So I ordered the new camshaft and today I fixed the problem .Here are few pics:






Spareparts prices :
Camshaft - 300 USD (made by AE - Federal Mogul)
Camlifters - 200 USD (made by INA)
Camshaft bearings - 100 USD (made by La-Schale -OEM suplier)

So I am a happy tdi driver with a good-starting engine now.



Thanks to Whitedog,DanG144 , Dimitri and everybody that helped me to solve this .
 

Wallace

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Feb 17, 2006
Location
Scotland
TDI
Audi A3 quattro.
Glad to hear you got it sorted, only one thing worries me. I bought my AJM TDI at 20,000 miles, dealer serviced from new and serviced by myself every 10,000 miles since, now showing 64,000, using the correct oil. My last car was a MK3 Golf TDI which was getting a bit 'tappety' by 175,000 miles when I sold it but that was the least of it's problems and I decided it needed too much spent on it and it was time to move on. When I got the Mk4 I thought maybe I wouldn't get the initial tapping in the mornings, but I did and still do. I would have to admit I have never had the cam cover off so I have no idea about wear and when I see posts like this it is a worry but my feeling is I haven't heard a TDI that doesn't do the tapping in the morning, particularly in cold weather but so long as it doesn't get too bad I would leave well alone (ducks and waits for flying bullets and other things).
Wallace
 

whitedog

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Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Dimitri16V said:
so... it looks like the lifters then..
Remember that only the lifters were replaced the first time and cam and lifters should always be replaced together due to the wear pattern.
 
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dukku

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Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Location
Romania
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1.9 PD-TDI AJM
My brother owns a 2003 4motion TDI Passat powered by a 131 HP AVF engine and it make no tapping in the morning . That's why I started sticking my nose in my engine .
 
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