How to: 02M/02Q LSD Install

Whitbread

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Well I'm finally installing MY lsd and figured I'd post up a good how to since there aren't really any out there :).

This is an FMH 02M, however it is apparently darn near the last 02M made as it's basically an 02Q on the inside :confused:. I've done tons of 02M lsd installs and this is the first one I've seen like this. The last one I did was even an FMH, but it was still the "old" style 02M.

Onto the pics;

The paitient


Remove speed sensor and all bolts you can find. The first clues that this was something different was that the case bolts are aluminum and the black cap that most 02m's don't have.


Next, remove the shift tower by pulling straight out and then put the trans bellhousing side down. Use a very small screwdriver to remove the cap that covers the rear input shaft bearing. Notice the snap ring on the outside of the bearing, remove it. If you have an old style 02M, this step doesn't apply to you.


On mine, I also had to remove this guy to get the tower out


Now, use a rubber mallet to break the adhesive bond between the halves and lift the top of the case off. All the gears will be stacked nicely looking at you. (I pulled the bellhousing side off first because I wanted to make sure I removed the shift tower correctly since I've never done a "new" style 02M before.) I couldn't be happier to see how clean this transmission is on the inside. There can't be more than 20K on it tops.


Here's all the gears


Here's the forks with offending rivets that must be removed. Notice the cushions on the end of the shift rails, old style 02M's don't have those.
 
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Whitbread

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Here's some interesting bits I noticed on this particular trans:

Input shaft is supported by one straight roller bearing and one giant ball bearing. Normally, it's a tapered roller bearing at each end of the shaft on the older 02m's. Now, I question whether this is a change made to increase strength, or a change because this is somehow cheaper than tapered roller bearings. It seems surprising to me that they deemed that the axial thrust loads generated by the helical gears could be handled by straight bearings with no thrust bearings. Any of the engineers/experts have a comment here?


Another oddity is the shift rail bushings this trans has. In old style 02m's they use little ball bearings in plastic cages. This trans just has bushings. Seems to me like a cost cutting design change.





The drive flanges also have little plastic dust shields of sorts on them. I'll snap pics of them tomorrow.





That's all for tonight, going to hot tank the cases tomorrow morning and get back at it. Hopefully the differential bearings show up tomorrow from ID Parts and I can put it all back together. (Are they going to show up tomorrow Peter? :p)




Okey dokey, here's the next round of pics:

Rivets drilled out. I like to use a 17/32" bit on a drill press with some wd-40 or other cutting lubricant.


The weapon of choice for driving rivets out


All out


Use a dead blow mallet to gently knock ring gear off differential. Notice the groove cut in the face of the ring gear that contacts the flange of the differential. Make sure you reinstall it in the same orientation.


Press the studs in your shiny expensive diff you'll never see again


Heat the ring gear in an oven, top of wood stove, propane torch, etc to approx 200F. This will make it drop on the diff much easier. Be sure to lube all studs and nuts with ARP lube and use 2 nuts 180* apart to draw the ring gear down gently. Once you feel it bottom out, torque all nuts to 40 ft/lbs. Then torque them all to 70 ft/lbs. This will make sure all the studs are fully seated in the differential flange. You'll probably have a couple that you'll feel turn more than others, that's the stud being drawn into the diff fully. Then, break all nuts loose, and torque to 45 ft/lbs for the final tq.




Now, take your bearings and toss them in the oven at 400F for 20 mins or so. Might want to make sure the better half is out of the house when you do this....
 
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Whitbread

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Toss the diff in the freezer for a half hour or so


If you did it right, the bearings will drop right on, no pressing needed.


Using this method, I changed the differential bearing races in the case


When doing the race that has the shim behind it, take a die grinder or rat tail file and put 2 small notches 180* apart. This makes driving the bearing race out after checking preload 100X easier. After notching, install the race with NO shim, measure the free play, drive the race back out, and then install the correct shim and the bearing race again.


Onto the forks. The enemy


Drive the roll pin out, drill the hole out to .260"-.270", and then tap it M8x1.25. Since you can't weld this bolt, use red loctite. Snap On tap sockets are one of the best inventions since sliced bread.


Before removing this roll pin, put 2 tack welds holding the shaft to the collar. If you don't tack it, the collar likes to rotate on the shaft during drilling/tapping. Don't ask me how I know....


I used a grade 12.9 M8 cap screw 25mm long to replace the roll pin. Grind the end flush and run around with a tig to make sure it never comes out



Grind the socket heads down to clear the trans case


Ahhhh, the 1-2 fork that has given so many people grief. Grind the rivet head off and punch the rivet out
 
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Whitbread

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Drill and tap this piece with the same tools used earlier. Drill the brass fork out to 5/16" so bolt can pass through it.


I used an M8x16mm cap screw here. Grind excess down and weld again. You don't have to grind the socket head on this one though.


For your remaining fork, follow the same steps as above. On this one you do have to grind the socket head down.


Ahhh, the 02M in it's assembled glory




When dropping my top case half on, I had to warm the case around the rear input shaft bearing to get it to slip in place. Once it's in all the way, put the snap ring in and tap the seal cover on.
 
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The Shootist

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Ball Bearings

All the Honda trannies I have pulled apart use straight bearings. Ball bearings have a fair tolerance to axial loading as is.

Tapered bearings can be tricky to set because the aluminum case, and the steel shafts expand at different rates. Straight bearings let one end of the shaft float axially making shims obsolete.;)
 

TDIinTexas

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Over on Vortex they suggest removing the rubber cushions on the ends of the rods. Any ideas on the thinking behind this?

David
 

Whitbread

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All the Honda trannies I have pulled apart use straight bearings. Ball bearings have a fair tolerance to axial loading as is.

Tapered bearings can be tricky to set because the aluminum case, and the steel shafts expand at different rates. Straight bearings let one end of the shaft float axially making shims obsolete.;)
Ah, I've never been in a honda trans before. I guess I'm just so used to working 02J's/02M's and old school heavy duty stuff where everything is on tapered roller bearings. My car should be a good test if it's weaker or not haha.

Over on Vortex they suggest removing the rubber cushions on the ends of the rods. Any ideas on the thinking behind this?

David
I've seen that mentioned too. I'm not sure why either. Only thing I can think of is to extend the travel of the shift shaft to make sure you don't miss a shift.
 

diesel-dave

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the the freeze/heat method for installing the bearings is the way to go. i have seen blogs where the guys are damaging these on install all the time.
 

Keebler145

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haha guess my next transmission is going off to Matt to have him do the wavetrac install. I don't have an oven I can use that won't get me in trouble (;
 

ryanp

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Great guide, I've got a super long ratio 02Q with only 100 miles on it for my new project, i need to do the diff install and upgrade shifter forks on that! the 02Q rarely break compared to the 02M so maybe leave the buffers in?

I read something about measuring the exact width of the old diff compared to the new diff and that dictates the thickness of the shim, does that sound right?
 
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NOLA_VDubber

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OP, you are my hero! I'm going to be tackling this job for the first time this weekend and had been worried as there are very little DIY's out there showing the 02M split open.

My questions for you are:

1) Once the old shimmed race is removed, are you doing anything special when installing the new one? That is, are you throwing the race in the freezer and heating the case prior to attempting to press it in?

2) Anything special when popping it back out after checking preload?

3) What value are you using for preload and where did you get your shims?

TIA:)
 

Whitbread

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OP, you are my hero! I'm going to be tackling this job for the first time this weekend and had been worried as there are very little DIY's out there showing the 02M split open.

My questions for you are:

1) Once the old shimmed race is removed, are you doing anything special when installing the new one? That is, are you throwing the race in the freezer and heating the case prior to attempting to press it in?

2) Anything special when popping it back out after checking preload?

3) What value are you using for preload and where did you get your shims?

TIA:)
Thanks :). The next time I do an lsd I'll do pics of the shimming process. Forgot to snap them while I had mine apart.

1) Nope. Just use a race driver or good (not china freight) round headed punch to carefully drive the race in. You could warm the case if you wanted, I generally don't.

2) Nope. Just use a good round punch to carefully knock it out from the backside.

3) I shoot for .010-.014" of preload. The math goes something like this; Free play measurement + .002" or .003" for what preload you'll lose because of the case sealant + .010" to .014" = shim thickness.

Here was mine: Original shim was .039". Free play was .024". 39-24=.015".
.015" - .003"= ~.012" preload with original shim. Since that's in spec, no new shim required.
 

TDIVR6T

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Do you know the torque specs for the transmission case? Have been searching for a while now and found one link which said torque to 25nm and a 45* turn, is this correct?
 

Bdpprocessors

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Will be using this next month!!!

Got a question tho. this might be a stupid one buit im not to knowledgeable on our transmission or any transmissions for that matter.

Why must the rivets on the shift forks be removed?

Is this also required in the Lsd install for the 02j code egr units?
 
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devonutopia

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Awesome thread! I have (well, my mechanic :D) done the rivet replacements using this thread as a guide. Now running a long ratio 02M box with rivets done - feels indestructible now (unlike my slipping clutch :()

The rivets are a known weak link, and if you shift too hard, or cock up the clutch/gear synchronisation, it can cause these rivets to break and then that usually means end of gearbox as it all seizes solid, or similar....
 

Bdpprocessors

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Awesome thread! I have (well, my mechanic :D) done the rivet replacements using this thread as a guide. Now running a long ratio 02M box with rivets done - feels indestructible now (unlike my slipping clutch :()

The rivets are a known weak link, and if you shift too hard, or cock up the clutch/gear synchronisation, it can cause these rivets to break and then that usually means end of gearbox as it all seizes solid, or similar....
Thanks!

is there a guide somewhere on setting preload and selecting the correct shims?
 

devonutopia

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You basically install the diff with no shims. close the box doing up two or three bolts tight, measure the play in the diff using a vernier gauge (tends to be circa 1mm from experience) and you add on 0.3mm for preload (so in my example find a 1.3mm shim)

I have a whole load of shims that came with my Peloquin so if you ever find you need one, I can get one in the post.
 

Bdpprocessors

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You basically install the diff with no shims. close the box doing up two or three bolts tight, measure the play in the diff using a vernier gauge (tends to be circa 1mm from experience) and you add on 0.3mm for preload (so in my example find a 1.3mm shim)

I have a whole load of shims that came with my Peloquin so if you ever find you need one, I can get one in the post.

Simple enough. Ill be picking up a donor tranny on tuesday and ordering the diff once i finish building the donor motor i wana keep my stock motor and trans incase i get too crazy and blow something up. Hince the donor drivetrain
 

jbleu101

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Did anyone ever answer the question about an 02J needing the same thing done or not with regards to drilling out the rivets? I am having an LSD installed and I want to arm the transmission guy with as much info as possible.
Thanks in advance.
 

Whitbread

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Did anyone ever answer the question about an 02J needing the same thing done or not with regards to drilling out the rivets? I am having an LSD installed and I want to arm the transmission guy with as much info as possible.
Thanks in advance.
To be bluntly honest, if a transmission tech installing the LSD doesn't know they need to drill rivets out, I'd ask to make sure they know how to set diff bearing preload. If they don't know about either, I wouldn't be having them do the work....
 

Redneck Truck

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Sorry for digging up an ancient but tremendously helpful thread, but I wanted to cover a few details that don't apply to most people and ask for clarification on some steps.

1. Will the ARP stud kit work for changing ring gears out on the differential? I need to swap the ERF ring gear onto the 4motion differential, but I really don't feel like installing a LSD in the resultant FWD gas gearbox right now. Are there any cheaper alternatives to said bolt/bearing kit?

2. You picture the bolt heads ground down on a couple of bolts, but do the bolt heads need to be removed completely or just ground down considerably? I'd really like to take the bolt heads off since they really aren't clamping anything anymore, but I want to be sure before I destroy the bolts that are now permanently installed in the shafts.

3. I'm fairly certain a good bit of grit has found its way into the gearboxes while they have been apart. What is a good way to abate it all prior to reassembly?

4. I did not remove the input shaft seal prior to disassembly. Have I caused irreparable damage, or should I just reassemble as usual?

5. A note to those who are rebuilding 4motion boxes: the differentials are different due to the passenger side axle flange inlet being splined to fit a coupler that accepts the angle gear. Also, when removing the angle gear, do not forget to remove the 6mm Allen bolt buried some 8 inches deep in the center of the passenger axle flange.

Thank you for this awesome write-up. I can't wait to do my next set of forks.
 

Whitbread

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1. Yes. No, ARP stud kit is your only option.

2. No, just ground down. Don't remove bolt head on the one that threads into the brass fork as you can't weld it. If you remove that head, you'll remove the torque holding the bolt in and be relying purely on loctite.

3. Hot tank at any automotive machine shop does wonders on the cases. Brake clean and compressed air on the gears. Re-lube gears and bearings before assembly.

4. No, but you're inviting murphy to drop in if you don't change the input shaft seal while it's apart.

5. That 6mm bolt is fun isn't it?
 

sardo_67

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ok, using this thread and matt phone help i did this mod to my "DRW" coded O2M i got from Ryan P last week. improved on a few things and when you have a brother like mine who works in a fully equipped machine shop that builds race car engines it helps.
started Friday evening and finished up this after noon.

stock open diff is out and removal of the ring gear



since we had access to the machining we set the shift forks up in the Bridgeport to drill out the rivets/roll pins and then tape it using the chuck in the mill as a guide. this way all the holes will be straight when tapped.




since the head of the bolt didn't fit directly into the rivet recess he spot faced it end mill so it would properly seat when torqued.


tapping the holes with a tap driver chucked up into the mill to keep it properly aligned

threaded for the bolt


torqued to 30 foot pounds

 
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sardo_67

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then you do some welding and grinding..





while he is welding i'm setting up the other fork



and now to stuff all this into the aluminum case.


went in way easier than i expected, the O2M is 10000X better than an O2J, i will never work on one of those again or even put money into one. this gear box is thought out better, designed better and a lot bigger and able to handle the higher power.

shift forks all welded up




since we had access to a TIG set up alex was able to braze the bronze shift forks to the shafts and the cap screws so they can not back out.
he also re enforced the other shift fork that does not have a roll pin in it with braze so it can not move or rotate causing problems later on.
 
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Whitbread

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went in way easier than i expected, the O2M is 10000X better than an O2J, i will never work on one of those again or even put money into one. this gear box is thought out better, designed better and a lot bigger and able to handle the higher power.
Now you see why I always recommend 02M's for any decent power build or auto to manual swap.

Glad you got it all worked out and thanks for some more great pics!
 

sardo_67

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ya the O2M is soooooo simple inside, i was really worried about opening it up and then uhhhh how the hell does this go back together hahah.

now the O2M and O2Q, what is the difference? is that just the new version of the O2M and do they make them in TDI gear versions?

also for us TDI guys in America, is it worth keeping my eyes open for a 1.8T O2M/Q that has broken gears or something internal messed up i can get for cheap then buy just a gear set? have you or another good trans guy rebuilt it with new bearings syncros and the works?
if so i'll watch Vortex a little more, maybe see about getting one from an AWD Audi TT or something hehehe
 

Redneck Truck

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Yet another update. I'm finally in the process of reassembling my 02M and a few things need clarified.

1. The updated Peloquin 02M diff comes with a threaded flange, plates, and bolts, rather than studs and nuts. Gary's instructions mention prelubricated bolts, though the bolts that came out of the bag seemed to have just some light oil on them and nothing too substantial. Also, no Loctite was mentioned. Is it really just as simple as threading them into the flange and torquing, or do I need to lubricate these bolts in order to achieve proper clamping? The bolts required a lot of force when tightening because of all the friction. I won't torque them until I hear back.

2. I didn't use heat to get the ring gear on; I just pressed it together with four non-marring clamps. Am I going to have issues? Should I go back and redo it with heat, or if the bolts are all torqued down, is there any way it can be on crooked?

3. Where can I purchase the shims necessary to preload the case?

4. Where can I purchase a kit containing all of the seals and o-rings necessary to reassemble this box once and not deal with a bunch of leaks?

Thanks again to Whitbread and now to Sardo for the great information and pictures. Can't wait to get my TT back on the road and spinning all four tires.
 
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