How big a money pit is a 300d?

Pedalsteel

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It's a jungle out there looking for one... full of people who don't like questions lol...I think a good amount of these have been owned by non car maintenance types who have money and think it automatically means the car will go 500k if they just drive it and don't do much else... the cold start video, idling and revving till 2000rpm listening for knocking or hammering sounds, and an oil cap dance test will tell a lot about one... there is a distinct sound and behavior in one of these that's healthy but finding one can be difficult at a reasonable price... they are cool cars though especially bc they aren't computer controlled and are really tough...
 

Steve Addy

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Owned a 76 300D years ago...bought it and sold it on after about 6 months. It had W123 Bundt wheels on it, made it look nicer, seats were horrible for support though, probably worn out. It was that powder blue...hated it almost as much as I hated that cream yellow color.

Next was a 1992 300SD (W140) I bought in 2009, still have it. It has the factory replacement OM603.971 engine with unknown miles....that I would know if the guy (indy) who did the cluster replacement would admit he did it and tell me the miles it was replaced it...but he won't. In fact he won't say much about it. The prior owner was not kind....installed the ridiculous stainless wheel opening trims (by the same indy) and that started rust in the wheel openings. The suspension has been fully overhauled, it drives nice but was vandalized (front and rear glass) so it just sits and gets run occasionally for now. The trans, which was notorious for problems, lost reverse and I haven't decided what to do with it....but it does need to go, it's unlikely I'm going to do anything with it. It would be a good purchase for someone with a W126 SDL that needs a new power plant.

Bought a 2005 CDI few years ago....it's very powerful but otherwise they're very problematic based on what I see posted and read in the MB forums. I fixed the minor things, have serviced it and repaired the front suspension and replaced rear shocks etc, it drives very nice but doesn't achieve TDI fuel efficiency either, then again it's feeding two more cylinders. I bought it because it was from a family friend who didn't want to see it destroyed. It's around 280k miles now.

They're ok, and they do ride quite nicely, but the W140 was too big and heavy for me and I feel weird in the W211 because I'm used to VW cars.

Steve
 

03TDICommuter

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Bought a 2005 CDI few years ago....it's very powerful but otherwise they're very problematic based on what I see posted and read in the MB forums. I fixed the minor things, have serviced it and repaired the front suspension and replaced rear shocks etc, it drives very nice but doesn't achieve TDI fuel efficiency either, then again it's feeding two more cylinders. I bought it because it was from a family friend who didn't want to see it destroyed. It's around 280k miles now.

They're ok, and they do ride quite nicely, but the W140 was too big and heavy for me and I feel weird in the W211 because I'm used to VW cars.

Steve
Oh, I thought they were supposed to be very good cars, overbuilt transmission, gobs of power and mid 40's MPG. The downer I've read was the drive by wire braking system but MB warranted them for life.
 

Steve Addy

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Oh, I thought they were supposed to be very good cars, overbuilt transmission, gobs of power and mid 40's MPG. The downer I've read was the drive by wire braking system but MB warranted them for life.
They're nice, gobs of power (that you really don't need) but they don't achieve those kinds of mpg numbers...at least I've never seen one that got mid-40's. That would be a pretty big deal with a 3.2L 6 cylinder. The later V6 didn't get that kind of mpg either, but that car with the OM642 was encumbered with a lot more emissions equipment.

The sensatronic brakes are warranted for a very long period but not for life AFIAK. The forums, last I knew, listed it as being a 25 year unlimited mile warranty extension. Servicing these is a PITA for even brake pad replacements and horrible for fluid flush, you have to have equipment that can clear / run the procedure for flushing. I haven't done that one yet, my neighbor has a Snap On diag tool he claims can do it.

The transmissions are good but can develop shift irregularities that require servicing the valve body. They're better than what came after though.

A lot of these got MB-tex which doesn't last like in the older cars, and I'd prefer cloth anyway...but not available I guess. The seats are unacceptable for anyone with long legs, the front edge won't lift high enough to provide support under your knees. Makes driving uncomfortable for long distances.

The mirrors are inadequate for reasonable visibility and if you don't have the radar sensing system...not sure when they started that, you do a lot of neck craning trying to see if anyone is around you. The sail panels (c pillars) are broad and create some good blind spots too.

They're ok, but I would never go out of my way to buy one...although I know several people who would, and do for some reason. The 05/06 CDI is extremely popular with the eastern european crowd, I've been approached repeatedly about selling it.

Fuel efficiency here with a lot of user supplied data. EPA rating was 27 combined on that car, user data has it up to 32+.

As I said I wouldn't have purchased it had it not been a friends car and had he not expressed discontent about it going to unknown parties. There was some arm twisting there...

It's a lovely car and it spent most of its life in Kentucky...which is good for the undercarriage etc.

Steve

 
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d24tdi

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Very nice example and seems uncommon to see one of these in a color other than black, silver, or beige. I've always admired those W211 OM648 cars, liked the driving dynamics and feel of the handful that I have driven, but agree not sure I'd want to own one. Relative to VAG vehicles that can accomplish so much with VCDS and other DIY-friendly programs, the MB platforms seem a lot more opaque. And high complexity of course, at least relative to the VAG A and B chassis cars that we are mostly used to here, although relative to something like a Touareg or C/D platform Audi it's probably no worse.

My main beef with the MB cars, coming from VWs (and in my case also Volvos), is that I just don't like the cabin ergonomics. My opinion is that VAG nailed secondary control ergonomics to absolute perfection in the A4/B5/C5 era. Every switch, lever, adjustment works exactly like I want it to and feel it should. MB's approach feels more like a domestic American vehicle to me and that is not a compliment. IMO something that should be a legal standard requirement for any vehicle is the ability to adjust wiper speed without taking a hand off the steering wheel, as that can be a serious safety factor in the worst conditions -- sudden drenched windshield or heavy spray from an 18-wheeler driving through standing water or slush in the next lane, variable winter weather conditions, etc. VW, Audi, BMW, Volvo, and most (but not all) of the Japanese and Korean makers have nailed this correctly since as long as I can remember, and also recent era Ford cars but not trucks.... Extend a finger on your right hand and you can flick a lever up or down as needed while continuing to hold the wheel. There's a reason this is how turn signals work as well.

Yet for the wipers in a Mercedes, like on a GM or Chrysler or Ford, you have to take your hand off the wheel, find the stalk, twist it, and bring your hand back to the wheel rim, in the midst of whatever else you're trying to manage in an emergency situation. MB has had that system forever and it sucks. Oddly enough the commercial chassis MB (the early SUVs, Sprinters) use a better logical system with a dedicated wiper lever on the right.

That's just one example of what I don't like, there are others. Seat adjustments, sunroof controls, HVAC, etc. Pet peeves in some sense but I will argue that these kinds of details can really make a difference in living with a vehicle over the long term, even on something that runs and drives as nicely as many of MB's vehicles do.

The smoothness of the inline six is nice for sure. To me that is probably the biggest appeal of any Merc diesel versus the alternatives. I don't really like the styling of the E90 BMW 3 series so the 335d is out for me, plus those feature modern emissions complexity also and are tight on interior space. Too bad we never got the E39 platform with a diesel six here, that's a vehicle I'd take a hard look at. In terms of MB, the W124 and W201 diesels seem like they have the strongest appeal out of them all, but even so I think the VAG/Volvo alternatives are better.

And I still maintain that the famous W123 cars just suck in every way. :p
 
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Steve Addy

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How reliable are the 98 and 99 e300d with the turbo 606?
The engine is solid, the chassis is somewhat lacking, there were problems with front suspension rust that I know....but if you bought a southern car that wouldn't probably be an issue.

I remember some mention of fuel injection line leaks too.

Most issues will be talked about a lot on the Benz forums, Peachparts and Benzworld for starters.

Steve
 

benIV

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I’m still on the lookout for a W123. I miss my old 300
 

d24tdi

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How reliable are the 98 and 99 e300d with the turbo 606?
They run and drive nicely. More or less comparable to the turbo OM603 W124 cars in terms of drivetrain and chassis dynamics IMHO, which is not a bad thing. I have heard of the front suspension corrosion issues as well, but imagine if you found a car from the south or the west coast that would not be too hard to avoid. The OM606 engine is a legend and the rest of the drivetrain seems solid enough. Other than my disagreements with the ergonomic/creature comfort choices on all Mercedes as I whined about above (which are a matter of personal preference only), they seem to me like as solid a choice as any.

Some folks feel that it was around this time ('90s, W210 platform) that MB's cars began to adopt a lower standard of build quality and engineering, a general "cheapening" in order to be more cost competitive with the Japanese mfgs like Lexus, Infiniti, Acura that had started a revolution against the old guard Euro luxo market in the US in the early 90s and pretty soon were eating MB's lunch (and BMW's, Volvo's, Saab's, etc.... Audi didn't have any lunch to eat in the early '90s so they were kind of spared, LOL.....) in terms of higher end auto market share. W210 was modernized, perhaps cost-optimized for production in ways the older models weren't, and maybe a little more bland.... Some say the W124 or even W123 were the last generation midsize platforms that were "real" Mercedes built the "old way", whatever that means..... The modernized feel of the W210 platform is a plus in my view, just noting that some folks dislike it relative to the way the previous cars looked/felt.

Truth is I think the biggest challenge one faces with the W210 turbo cars is finding one, given that they were only made for a couple years and were not especially high selling models. Similar to the 05-06 OM648 E320 CDI models, I think at this point most of the good ones that are left are already in the hands of folks who own one because it's what they want and sought out and plan to keep, thus not common to see them for sale unless they are really used up.

Of course the low mile examples do exist but when they come available you have to compete for them and be willing to pay.... Such as with this 10k mile W124 E300D earlier this year...... :p :p https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1995-mercedes-benz-e300-diesel-31/
 

d24tdi

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I guess your question was how reliable are they. I think the realistic answer at this point is no more or less than any other complicated, expensive European luxury car that is 25 years old. :D

The engines are stout (if maintained) and the rest of the hard parts don't have much in the way of inherent problems from what I can remember. But if you're asking about "reliability" with a decades old used Mercedes or anything like it, IMHO that question means you should be looking cheaper and newer....... Even a very well cared for example will need attention more than a newer/simpler Mk4 TDI for example (which itself is not the shining example of "reliability" in most folks' eyes, LOL.....). Always gonna be something going on. Parts will be expensive and if you don't do all your own work you will need to develop a relationship with a capable specialist shop as your average garage will have no knowledge of these and will screw things up.

Probably still reasonably viable as a daily driver, doubt it would be any more "unreliable" than any other MB platform you have considered, but again I think if that's the question that's in your mind (or if you are wondering about the "money pit" factor as your original thread title asks) then you may want to look at other paths completely, hard to imagine you'd be satisfied with how any experiment like this will end up.

One time I was selling a mid '90s Land Rover Discovery I was ready to move on from, and got lots of interest from Bozeman area folks with Toyota Tacomas or Subaru Outbacks looking for something "cooler" to stand out from the crowd at the trailhead or ski hill, as those kinds of vehicles are ubiquitous here. All of them asked how "reliable" the Disco was. My truck was in great shape and needed nothing immediate at that moment, yet even so, I got to the point where if they even said the word "reliability" I would tell them they shouldn't consider it! Owning something like that, or an old Mercedes, etc, is just a different way of life from owning something that you think of mostly as a transportation tool and only open the hood on a few times a year.
 
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d24tdi

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Or, at the risk of running on here forever -- how much money per year to put into your car for repair bills sounds like a reasonable amount, vs what sounds like a lot?

For reference: many of the old European higher end used cars I have bought over the years (Audis, that Land Rover, B5.5 TDIs, Eurovans, Volvos, etc) have come with big folders of maintenance records. When you look through those you often tragically see that the PO was spending $5000-$15,000 PER YEAR on repairs and maintenance, year after year after year, once the car reached a certain age. No joke, some of these folders have added up to the cost of a big down payment on a nice house. It would go into the shop for whatever reason a half-dozen or so times a year and almost never come back without a bill for 2 grand or more. Could be something big like a transmission but even routine stuff like suspension or brake work, a fuel pump, an AC compressor, a steering rack, whatever, it would add up fast. Keep in mind this was even on cars I bought that were in nice shape and well maintained, not trashed beaters. You can own a car like this as a hobby without it driving you into the poor house if you take care of it yourself, but if you are dependent on paid expert help for that, it sucks. All the more so if your back is against the wall on keeping the car going because it's your primary transportation.

I ask because for many folks, putting more than a thousand or so dollars into their car in a given year feels like a lot, especially in something that's only "worth" a few grand. If that's your context, you wouldn't like how this would feel.
 

Steve Addy

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The W210 was a lovely car to look at...but as I mentioned before the body metal seemed to be lacking the same anti-corrosion treatments that prior models (W140 / W124) received. The front design was great, the rear was a little weird but still ok...

That the W210 seemed cheaper was probably due to the W140 development costs exceeding $1 billion and the need to change that practice to remain competitive.

MB (IMO) is a love hate relationship...parts are there but expensive, I love the W140 but I hate it as well...such a gigantic boat. I have promised no more and so far no temptations. Modern MB cars aren't worth looking at....the complexity is too much of a risk and can be rendered worthless with very little effort.

Steve
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The problems I faced with my w124 300D (more than 25 years old, but it was a really nice example) had issues develop that were not easily fixed, or not fixable at all. Blend doors were getting sticky or the vacuum lines that operated them were deteriorating. Cruise control never worked (I could get a new controller, but it was very expensive and because of PN supersessions, I wasn't confident that what I could buy would work). Coolant overflow tanks (yes, tanks), had hoses that were leaking. The second tank is buried in the passenger front fender, and would probably require removing the fender to access. We bypassed it.

I worried about oil cooler lines failing, as that is a receipe for killing the engine. I was fortunate that the ALDA in my car worked properly. That's often not the case. Developed a hole in the tail pipe, that wasn't a cheap item, and I got it wholesale. Headliner was starting to fall when I sold it. Proper replacement procedure requires removing the rear window. My upholstery guy cautioned me to make sure I had glass coverage before he attempted replacement. The rear window in that car is both expensive and very hard to find.

These are the kinds of issues you face with an old luxury car. And mine was by no means a daily driver: I only drove it 22K miles in 10+ years.
 

Pedalsteel

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Yeah these are what scare me about any w124...I can find w210 with the om606 pretty clean but I'm wondering if the stakes are higher with added complexity and computer control?
 

compu_85

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With a W210 I'd say the stakes are higher with the known body rust issues.

If you like to tinker these can still be fairly affordable cars. EG, I thought one of the ABS sensors on my SDL was bad. Turns out both front sensors are bad. One side is NLA now, the other is $170-$500 depending on the vendor!

I'm installing a set of sensors I got at the junkyard last weekend...

-J
 

rocky raccoon

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I daily-drove my last W123 Diesel (a 1983 300CD) for 8 years and loved every minute of it. It took a couple of hours every month in maintenance however. I finally decided that I wanted a hassle-free driving experience and sold the Benz for enough to pay cash for a 2014 VW TDI JSW.

I got what I wanted. My VW has been dead-nuts reliable and has needed NO corrective maintenance in the three years I have owned it. I have recently had the full timing belt preventive maintenance job done and am pleased with the result. Life is good BUT I am bored with this car and wish I had my old Benz back.
 

Pedalsteel

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I guess I should add that since I made this post I have bought an 83 240D manual. I feel like my decision in some ways has been to become a Mercedes mechanic haha because I literally wrench on it everyday now granted since November I've put like 20,000 miles on the car and it's 40 years old but I literally half the wrench on it just about everyday. My alh wagon needs a bunch of work and I've slowly been getting this car meaning that Mercedes to where I can manage driving it everyday so that I can afford to have the Jetta completely apart in the garage so I'm getting ready to do all of the stuff for that but frankly I'm looking forward to the virtually maintenance-free life of my alh. I really like the Mercedes and it's comfortable to drive but it's a whole lot of tinkering and lots of aged plastic parts and vacuum hoses and not really knowing the ins and outs of the car has been fun but it's been kind of a pain in the ass. I feel like whomever had this car two owners previous to me really didn't do any repair in the manner in which it should have been done so anytime something breaks I'm finding that there's some kind of weird twist to a basic repair job that I have to go through so that aspect of it is not fun and is a big headache
 

casioqv

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If you like this era and vibe of vehicle, and want a diesel, try to find an early '80s Volvo 240 diesel or 740/760 turbodiesel. Better cars, cheaper to buy and own, much nicer to drive
Interesting to see someone liking the D24 Volvos, because they're almost universally hated on car forums. I've owned 5 of them (2 240s and 3 760s), and agree that they are great and underappreciated. A real world 30mpg, and massive dual fuel tanks in the 7xx sedans, they are a great long distance road trip vehicle. I would say the D24T blows the OM61x engines out of the water in terms of efficiency, power, etc. but the later OM60x MB engines are comparable but somewhat easier to maintain with long lived timing chains and cam type injector pumps.

They're pretty unusual engines though, and you need a support network and a lot of special tools to keep one working. Parts are getting really hard to find, and the parts compatibility with common VW engines from the same era is actually pretty low. They pretty much last forever if you use good oil and never overheat them, but most of them died early from those issues.
 

d24tdi

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^^ Yeah. As I am sure you know, like other subjects on the internet, most of the vitriol against the D24 and its relatives comes in the form of hearsay and rumor and urban legend..... and almost all from people who have never even seen a D24 powered car with their own eyes, let alone driven, owned, or turned a wrench on one. Third, fourth, or fifth-hand stories, about a buddy whose sister's boyfriend's uncle owned one 30-plus years ago and what a POS they heard it was, how the camshaft just decided one morning to shatter into five pieces or something.....

So many of them were killed by careless mechanics and owners early on. The Volvo dealers and indie garages resented the idea of a non-Volvo engine under the hood (or really anything other than a 4-banger redblock, as the PRV Volvo engines suffered a similar attitude). They never wanted to really understand how the engine worked, or to get the special tools and knowledge to service them correctly. My sense is that the vast majority of those cars were running around all the time with the cam and pump timing way off and the crank bolt not fully torqued, from hacks (often also dealers) cutting corners on timing belt jobs. I owned many D24T 740s that came with stacks of service records ..... A constant theme was always something about how the car, having been trouble-free up to that point, would go in for its first timing belt job at around 75k miles, or for some kind of warranty work on the fuel system, and starting from then onward it was never right again, always complaints about hard starting, lack of power, overheating, smoke..... Classic timing symptoms on an old mechanical motor.... Attempt after attempt to "diagnose" and fix it by folks lacking the timing tools, eventually adding up to thousands or sometimes literally TENS of thousands of dollars over the years while the owner lived with a car that never ran correctly despite repeatedly rebuilding the injection pump and injectors, over and over and over again, LOL .... Then the car ends up being thought of as a lemon of course, "unfixable". Or, one day the crank bolt that was installed wrong loosens up and the timing gear spins, breaks the camshaft.... Hence reputation of cam trouble. Almost everything that went wrong with these engines was sabotage. The same of course was often true with TDIs that failed in the hands of hack mechanics playing with the timing system, but in that case for some reason nobody seems to blame the design of the motor.

Of course the Volvo owners didn't help much either, being used to the redblock motor and being told the diesel would be "even cheaper" to own since no tuneups needed. Folks bought Volvos back then because they wanted something they could fix only after it broke -- routine maintenance was not really part of the deal -- and the lame thrasher redblock gassers could tolerate that .... break the timing belt, overheat it, whatever, they would just keep on going. That attitude was not a good match for the diesels. But they blamed it on the car rather than themselves of course, and the notorious rep kept growing.

Meanwhile the same idiot hearsay can give a false positive reputation just as easily as a negative one. The internet will tell you that a MB OM61x motor will run 3 million miles with zero maintenance using peanut oil as fuel. BS -- they wear out just as easily as anything else if abused or neglected. And likewise like (almost) anything else, they are capable of long life if maintained. So is a D24 or an old Chevy 327 for that matter.
 
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rocky raccoon

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Almost everything in this thread is true to some extent. The pitch for me with the old OM617 engine cars is that although they may require some maintenance attention, that maintenance CAN be done by an average home mechanic. There are no electronic supersonic aspects that require special diagnostic processors and access to the engine compartment is excellent.

I have had three Benz with OM617 engines. I could do virtually anything on them myself and enjoy doing it. My VW TDI, while reliable, I can do virtually nothing on it myself except for fluid changes.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
You'd think given that the VAG inline 6 (both diesel AND gas) were lifted from the LT van parts bin, that they would have been virtually indestructible in use in a passenger car.

I'm sure the BMW 2.4L diesel that Ford put in some Lincolns in the '80s wasn't really loved by the Ford guys, either. Personally, I think manufacturers using someone else's engine (or worse, their whole car.... Routan...) is a bad idea in general. They just rarely seem to get the proper care early on.
 

d24tdi

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Personally, I think manufacturers using someone else's engine (or worse, their whole car.... Routan...) is a bad idea in general. They just rarely seem to get the proper care early on.
Bingo, agree 100%. I think a massive factor that is often overlooked when assessing in hindsight what vehicle designs were "good" or "bad", or "reliable" or "lemon" .... is what kind of care the owners were conditioned to giving the cars during their initial 5-10 years on the road, AND whether the manufacturer's dealerships and general aftersales culture were capable and committed to competently providing that care. Any "bastard child" engine or vehicle product borrowed from a different OEM almost always seems to be at an immediate disadvantage in that realm.

The '70s '80s Mercedes diesels in my opinion (I know I am beating a dead horse here) were an unimpressive product in terms of engineering. Overcomplicated, antiquated, heavy, poor performing relative to the more advanced competition, and not especially efficient. Mercedes even knew they were lame and uncompetitive -- hence their complete throwing away of that design after 1985 and the intro of a new family of diesels that retained absolutely nothing from the old motors. Yet those old motors got this rep for being some of the best products on the road based on the fact that they had a good survival rate into high mileages. I think a huge amount of that comes down to the fact that when new, they were among the most EXPENSIVE vehicles on the road and were owned by deep-pocket folks who didn't need to worry about spending whatever the dealer told them they should spend. Meanwhile the dealers obviously did know the product they were maintaining pretty well (hey, the OM61x motor basic design was already decades old by the late '70s! lol), and the dealers seemed to take seriously the idea of doing things correctly. And fair enough, as others noted, the engines were foolproof in certain ways, no timing belts to screw up, etc, even if the stuff on the outside of them was overly complex and prone to constant trouble (throttle linkages, cruise control, HVAC, vacuum system, shutoff system, air cleaner mounts, motor mounts, oil cooler lines.......... etc). So other than constantly replacing all that crap, the dealers probably didn't have to get into the actual engine parts often.

Anyway I speculate that those early years of good treatment were a big part of how the cars came to be viewed as solid. By comparison there were other equally good (or in many cases far better) designs out there that were unfortunately subjected to ignorant/careless dealer service depts and/or owner culture that prioritized saving every possible penny, and acquired a poor reputation as a result. The Volvo diesels were a perfect example of that -- as OH said, why would an engine known for durability in VWs and Audis become known as a lemon when installed in a Volvo chassis?? I would not be surprised if those BMW diesels in the Lincoln cars had a similar story, with many being killed at Lincoln dealers by techs used to working on carbed 302s and 351s and having no comprehension or interest in a European turbodiesel. Other bastard child stuff, probably the same deal. Did Saturn dealers know how to fix the Honda V6 that was in some of the VUE SUVs a few years ago???

But the part that's a bummer is that in the end, all of this ends up reflecting in the reputation of the product itself, not in the reputation of the service infrastructure that is really at fault. Still happens all the time today. I worked for years in the warranty and emissions compliance engineering department of a big industrial diesel engine OEM. We used to routinely have to issue government-forced recalls on parts (I remember a MAP sensor being one ridiculous example) that had NO ACTUAL ISSUES..... but they were being replaced so often in the field under warranty that they triggered a recall based on it hitting the regulatory failure rate threshold. WHY were they being replaced? Because the word on the street had spread throughout the dealer service network and in the internal diagnostics chat systems that if you had certain SCR or DPF fault codes, you should always replace the MAP sensor..... even though there was NO EVIDENCE of failures of those sensors nor of any actual effort to confirm their failures before replacing in the field, and perfectly functioning parts were being changed for no reason.

But regardless of the facts, after enough years of this, the customer's perception (and the government's!) became that there was a huge issue with those MAP sensors. There was no issue, and the warranty return sensors always would test good.... Just an issue of idiocy on the part of the service departments and their hive-mind culture.

Oh well......
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Well I for one think my W126 was a fantastic car... and I would not give it the tag "antiquated" at all. It rode and handled and stopped like a sports car, despite its size. But obviously the diesel engine it had at the time probably wasn't as advanced as the gasoline engines MB had. But the chassis was stellar. Sure the engine was long in the tooth by 1983, but sometimes the "if it ain't broke" mantra applies. It was $40k new. Which is about $130k today. And I don't think a new S-class today (which start at about $120k) could claim in 20 years what those early diesel W126s did when they were 20 years old.
 

dogdots

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TDI
None
My 79 gray market R107 280sl has one of those advanced gas engines. Inline 6 mechanical fuel injection and it starts off in 2nd unless you nail it off the line then there’s a real short 1st. It gets sideways every time it goes 1-2. Handles a little better than any of my 240d or 300d cars did but were all hand built and the doors close like bank vaults. They are solid. Only real problems I had with the W123 was shifter bushings on my 240, a leaky turbo on one of my 300”s and central locking vacuum nightmares on another 300.

I once drove my 240 from KC to Tulsa in a snowstorm that closed the interstates so I was all alone on back highways making my own path. I was pretty glad to have those yellow fogs up high that night.

After owning a tuned BMW 335d there’s no way I would be as happy driving a 300d Merc as I used to be but they are still pretty cool.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
My '92 300D 2.5 definitely drove like an old car. Reminded me of my '85 Peugeot 505 Diesel. It was nice, but there was no comparison even to my '97 Passat, which was on a platform that was close to 10 years newer with a more modern diesel. You could really tell.

The 300D had some nice characteristics, but no one was going to mistake it for a modern car.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I still own a Volvo 245 with the na D24 and owned a half dozen redblock 240s. I like the D24 alright, but it doesn't hold a candle to the redblocks- especially the B21FT and B230FT cars I had. Even the '76 B21 244 that I bought for $200 was an absolute powerhouse compared to the lethargic, loud, and smoky D24. Not VW/Audi's finest effort, imo. I hear the turbo version was a significant improvement.
 

casioqv

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Location
California
TDI
2009 Touareg TDI
Volvo marketed the D24T as "maintenance free" or "lower maintenance" vs the red blocks, when really the opposite was true, which didn't help anything. As a D24 fan I have one of the dealer posters for the 240 diesel on the wall in my living room that says "less engine maintenance" as a key selling point of the D24, which is indeed not true at all.

The N/A D24 is actually about as powerful as an ALH TDI Golf or Jetta, in about the same weight vehicle, but has much less torque. If you tune it properly so it doesn't smoke (less fuel, more timing advance than most people do), and rev it out hard it performs great. You also need to have the right head gasket, most people put too thick of one, which will also make it slow and smoky. Some had too thick a gasket from the factory even. It's a HIGH RPM IDI diesel, which people don't expect, and they shift it at 2,000 rpm and it performs like a dog. I shift a D24 at 4,000 rpm under full throttle typically for normal driving, and performance is similar to an ALH TDI shifted much much sooner. If it smokes a lot like that, turn the fuel down. The newer VW diesels with an electronic throttle, drive like this automatically (full throttle/fuel even if you apply only part throttle), making the engines feel more powerful than they are.

The Turbo D24T in the 7xx Volvos is a major improvement, and those cars are actually much faster than an ALH TDI when tuned properly, and can take a ton of fuel without smoking because of a large turbo. But they had an even more 'high rpm' cam than the N/A D24, and really benefit from being rev'd out. Putting the N/A cam in them gives them more low rpm torque.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I don't recall my 740 turbodiesel (which used a 4sp ZF slushbox) as being able to hang with an ALH. I owned it the same time I owned my 1998 Jetta, and the Jetta would have easily smoked it. It was only 108hp/151tq, and it was moving more car. I'm sure the automatic took some out of it. I also don't recall it having especially long legs... much over 80 and it started to run out of steam. It was a nice driving car, though.
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Old automatics definitely suck a lot of power. I don't know about the ZF in the Volvos, but the auto in my first LandCruiser Prado (97hp IDI turbodiesel) took as much as 13hp just to spin the torque converter when it wasn't locked up.
 
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