How big a money pit is a 300d?

Pedalsteel

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Unicorn
It's a jungle out there looking for one... full of people who don't like questions lol...I think a good amount of these have been owned by non car maintenance types who have money and think it automatically means the car will go 500k if they just drive it and don't do much else... the cold start video, idling and revving till 2000rpm listening for knocking or hammering sounds, and an oil cap dance test will tell a lot about one... there is a distinct sound and behavior in one of these that's healthy but finding one can be difficult at a reasonable price... they are cool cars though especially bc they aren't computer controlled and are really tough...
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
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Aug 7, 2002
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Iowa
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97 Mk3
Owned a 76 300D years ago...bought it and sold it on after about 6 months. It had W123 Bundt wheels on it, made it look nicer, seats were horrible for support though, probably worn out. It was that powder blue...hated it almost as much as I hated that cream yellow color.

Next was a 1992 300SD (W140) I bought in 2009, still have it. It has the factory replacement OM603.971 engine with unknown miles....that I would know if the guy (indy) who did the cluster replacement would admit he did it and tell me the miles it was replaced it...but he won't. In fact he won't say much about it. The prior owner was not kind....installed the ridiculous stainless wheel opening trims (by the same indy) and that started rust in the wheel openings. The suspension has been fully overhauled, it drives nice but was vandalized (front and rear glass) so it just sits and gets run occasionally for now. The trans, which was notorious for problems, lost reverse and I haven't decided what to do with it....but it does need to go, it's unlikely I'm going to do anything with it. It would be a good purchase for someone with a W126 SDL that needs a new power plant.

Bought a 2005 CDI few years ago....it's very powerful but otherwise they're very problematic based on what I see posted and read in the MB forums. I fixed the minor things, have serviced it and repaired the front suspension and replaced rear shocks etc, it drives very nice but doesn't achieve TDI fuel efficiency either, then again it's feeding two more cylinders. I bought it because it was from a family friend who didn't want to see it destroyed. It's around 280k miles now.

They're ok, and they do ride quite nicely, but the W140 was too big and heavy for me and I feel weird in the W211 because I'm used to VW cars.

Steve
 

03TDICommuter

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So. Cal
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01' NB, 5spd
Bought a 2005 CDI few years ago....it's very powerful but otherwise they're very problematic based on what I see posted and read in the MB forums. I fixed the minor things, have serviced it and repaired the front suspension and replaced rear shocks etc, it drives very nice but doesn't achieve TDI fuel efficiency either, then again it's feeding two more cylinders. I bought it because it was from a family friend who didn't want to see it destroyed. It's around 280k miles now.

They're ok, and they do ride quite nicely, but the W140 was too big and heavy for me and I feel weird in the W211 because I'm used to VW cars.

Steve
Oh, I thought they were supposed to be very good cars, overbuilt transmission, gobs of power and mid 40's MPG. The downer I've read was the drive by wire braking system but MB warranted them for life.
 

Steve Addy

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Iowa
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97 Mk3
Oh, I thought they were supposed to be very good cars, overbuilt transmission, gobs of power and mid 40's MPG. The downer I've read was the drive by wire braking system but MB warranted them for life.
They're nice, gobs of power (that you really don't need) but they don't achieve those kinds of mpg numbers...at least I've never seen one that got mid-40's. That would be a pretty big deal with a 3.2L 6 cylinder. The later V6 didn't get that kind of mpg either, but that car with the OM642 was encumbered with a lot more emissions equipment.

The sensatronic brakes are warranted for a very long period but not for life AFIAK. The forums, last I knew, listed it as being a 25 year unlimited mile warranty extension. Servicing these is a PITA for even brake pad replacements and horrible for fluid flush, you have to have equipment that can clear / run the procedure for flushing. I haven't done that one yet, my neighbor has a Snap On diag tool he claims can do it.

The transmissions are good but can develop shift irregularities that require servicing the valve body. They're better than what came after though.

A lot of these got MB-tex which doesn't last like in the older cars, and I'd prefer cloth anyway...but not available I guess. The seats are unacceptable for anyone with long legs, the front edge won't lift high enough to provide support under your knees. Makes driving uncomfortable for long distances.

The mirrors are inadequate for reasonable visibility and if you don't have the radar sensing system...not sure when they started that, you do a lot of neck craning trying to see if anyone is around you. The sail panels (c pillars) are broad and create some good blind spots too.

They're ok, but I would never go out of my way to buy one...although I know several people who would, and do for some reason. The 05/06 CDI is extremely popular with the eastern european crowd, I've been approached repeatedly about selling it.

Fuel efficiency here with a lot of user supplied data. EPA rating was 27 combined on that car, user data has it up to 32+.

As I said I wouldn't have purchased it had it not been a friends car and had he not expressed discontent about it going to unknown parties. There was some arm twisting there...

It's a lovely car and it spent most of its life in Kentucky...which is good for the undercarriage etc.

Steve

 
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d24tdi

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MT
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96 B4V
Very nice example and seems uncommon to see one of these in a color other than black, silver, or beige. I've always admired those W211 OM648 cars, liked the driving dynamics and feel of the handful that I have driven, but agree not sure I'd want to own one. Relative to VAG vehicles that can accomplish so much with VCDS and other DIY-friendly programs, the MB platforms seem a lot more opaque. And high complexity of course, at least relative to the VAG A and B chassis cars that we are mostly used to here, although relative to something like a Touareg or C/D platform Audi it's probably no worse.

My main beef with the MB cars, coming from VWs (and in my case also Volvos), is that I just don't like the cabin ergonomics. My opinion is that VAG nailed secondary control ergonomics to absolute perfection in the A4/B5/C5 era. Every switch, lever, adjustment works exactly like I want it to and feel it should. MB's approach feels more like a domestic American vehicle to me and that is not a compliment. IMO something that should be a legal standard requirement for any vehicle is the ability to adjust wiper speed without taking a hand off the steering wheel, as that can be a serious safety factor in the worst conditions -- sudden drenched windshield or heavy spray from an 18-wheeler driving through standing water or slush in the next lane, variable winter weather conditions, etc. VW, Audi, BMW, Volvo, and most (but not all) of the Japanese and Korean makers have nailed this correctly since as long as I can remember, and also recent era Ford cars but not trucks.... Extend a finger on your right hand and you can flick a lever up or down as needed while continuing to hold the wheel. There's a reason this is how turn signals work as well.

Yet for the wipers in a Mercedes, like on a GM or Chrysler or Ford, you have to take your hand off the wheel, find the stalk, twist it, and bring your hand back to the wheel rim, in the midst of whatever else you're trying to manage in an emergency situation. MB has had that system forever and it sucks. Oddly enough the commercial chassis MB (the early SUVs, Sprinters) use a better logical system with a dedicated wiper lever on the right.

That's just one example of what I don't like, there are others. Seat adjustments, sunroof controls, HVAC, etc. Pet peeves in some sense but I will argue that these kinds of details can really make a difference in living with a vehicle over the long term, even on something that runs and drives as nicely as many of MB's vehicles do.

The smoothness of the inline six is nice for sure. To me that is probably the biggest appeal of any Merc diesel versus the alternatives. I don't really like the styling of the E90 BMW 3 series so the 335d is out for me, plus those feature modern emissions complexity also and are tight on interior space. Too bad we never got the E39 platform with a diesel six here, that's a vehicle I'd take a hard look at. In terms of MB, the W124 and W201 diesels seem like they have the strongest appeal out of them all, but even so I think the VAG/Volvo alternatives are better.

And I still maintain that the famous W123 cars just suck in every way. :p
 
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Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Iowa
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97 Mk3
How reliable are the 98 and 99 e300d with the turbo 606?
The engine is solid, the chassis is somewhat lacking, there were problems with front suspension rust that I know....but if you bought a southern car that wouldn't probably be an issue.

I remember some mention of fuel injection line leaks too.

Most issues will be talked about a lot on the Benz forums, Peachparts and Benzworld for starters.

Steve
 

benIV

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I’m still on the lookout for a W123. I miss my old 300
 

d24tdi

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How reliable are the 98 and 99 e300d with the turbo 606?
They run and drive nicely. More or less comparable to the turbo OM603 W124 cars in terms of drivetrain and chassis dynamics IMHO, which is not a bad thing. I have heard of the front suspension corrosion issues as well, but imagine if you found a car from the south or the west coast that would not be too hard to avoid. The OM606 engine is a legend and the rest of the drivetrain seems solid enough. Other than my disagreements with the ergonomic/creature comfort choices on all Mercedes as I whined about above (which are a matter of personal preference only), they seem to me like as solid a choice as any.

Some folks feel that it was around this time ('90s, W210 platform) that MB's cars began to adopt a lower standard of build quality and engineering, a general "cheapening" in order to be more cost competitive with the Japanese mfgs like Lexus, Infiniti, Acura that had started a revolution against the old guard Euro luxo market in the US in the early 90s and pretty soon were eating MB's lunch (and BMW's, Volvo's, Saab's, etc.... Audi didn't have any lunch to eat in the early '90s so they were kind of spared, LOL.....) in terms of higher end auto market share. W210 was modernized, perhaps cost-optimized for production in ways the older models weren't, and maybe a little more bland.... Some say the W124 or even W123 were the last generation midsize platforms that were "real" Mercedes built the "old way", whatever that means..... The modernized feel of the W210 platform is a plus in my view, just noting that some folks dislike it relative to the way the previous cars looked/felt.

Truth is I think the biggest challenge one faces with the W210 turbo cars is finding one, given that they were only made for a couple years and were not especially high selling models. Similar to the 05-06 OM648 E320 CDI models, I think at this point most of the good ones that are left are already in the hands of folks who own one because it's what they want and sought out and plan to keep, thus not common to see them for sale unless they are really used up.

Of course the low mile examples do exist but when they come available you have to compete for them and be willing to pay.... Such as with this 10k mile W124 E300D earlier this year...... :p :p https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1995-mercedes-benz-e300-diesel-31/
 

d24tdi

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I guess your question was how reliable are they. I think the realistic answer at this point is no more or less than any other complicated, expensive European luxury car that is 25 years old. :D

The engines are stout (if maintained) and the rest of the hard parts don't have much in the way of inherent problems from what I can remember. But if you're asking about "reliability" with a decades old used Mercedes or anything like it, IMHO that question means you should be looking cheaper and newer....... Even a very well cared for example will need attention more than a newer/simpler Mk4 TDI for example (which itself is not the shining example of "reliability" in most folks' eyes, LOL.....). Always gonna be something going on. Parts will be expensive and if you don't do all your own work you will need to develop a relationship with a capable specialist shop as your average garage will have no knowledge of these and will screw things up.

Probably still reasonably viable as a daily driver, doubt it would be any more "unreliable" than any other MB platform you have considered, but again I think if that's the question that's in your mind (or if you are wondering about the "money pit" factor as your original thread title asks) then you may want to look at other paths completely, hard to imagine you'd be satisfied with how any experiment like this will end up.

One time I was selling a mid '90s Land Rover Discovery I was ready to move on from, and got lots of interest from Bozeman area folks with Toyota Tacomas or Subaru Outbacks looking for something "cooler" to stand out from the crowd at the trailhead or ski hill, as those kinds of vehicles are ubiquitous here. All of them asked how "reliable" the Disco was. My truck was in great shape and needed nothing immediate at that moment, yet even so, I got to the point where if they even said the word "reliability" I would tell them they shouldn't consider it! Owning something like that, or an old Mercedes, etc, is just a different way of life from owning something that you think of mostly as a transportation tool and only open the hood on a few times a year.
 
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d24tdi

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Or, at the risk of running on here forever -- how much money per year to put into your car for repair bills sounds like a reasonable amount, vs what sounds like a lot?

For reference: many of the old European higher end used cars I have bought over the years (Audis, that Land Rover, B5.5 TDIs, Eurovans, Volvos, etc) have come with big folders of maintenance records. When you look through those you often tragically see that the PO was spending $5000-$15,000 PER YEAR on repairs and maintenance, year after year after year, once the car reached a certain age. No joke, some of these folders have added up to the cost of a big down payment on a nice house. It would go into the shop for whatever reason a half-dozen or so times a year and almost never come back without a bill for 2 grand or more. Could be something big like a transmission but even routine stuff like suspension or brake work, a fuel pump, an AC compressor, a steering rack, whatever, it would add up fast. Keep in mind this was even on cars I bought that were in nice shape and well maintained, not trashed beaters. You can own a car like this as a hobby without it driving you into the poor house if you take care of it yourself, but if you are dependent on paid expert help for that, it sucks. All the more so if your back is against the wall on keeping the car going because it's your primary transportation.

I ask because for many folks, putting more than a thousand or so dollars into their car in a given year feels like a lot, especially in something that's only "worth" a few grand. If that's your context, you wouldn't like how this would feel.
 

Steve Addy

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Location
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The W210 was a lovely car to look at...but as I mentioned before the body metal seemed to be lacking the same anti-corrosion treatments that prior models (W140 / W124) received. The front design was great, the rear was a little weird but still ok...

That the W210 seemed cheaper was probably due to the W140 development costs exceeding $1 billion and the need to change that practice to remain competitive.

MB (IMO) is a love hate relationship...parts are there but expensive, I love the W140 but I hate it as well...such a gigantic boat. I have promised no more and so far no temptations. Modern MB cars aren't worth looking at....the complexity is too much of a risk and can be rendered worthless with very little effort.

Steve
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The problems I faced with my w124 300D (more than 25 years old, but it was a really nice example) had issues develop that were not easily fixed, or not fixable at all. Blend doors were getting sticky or the vacuum lines that operated them were deteriorating. Cruise control never worked (I could get a new controller, but it was very expensive and because of PN supersessions, I wasn't confident that what I could buy would work). Coolant overflow tanks (yes, tanks), had hoses that were leaking. The second tank is buried in the passenger front fender, and would probably require removing the fender to access. We bypassed it.

I worried about oil cooler lines failing, as that is a receipe for killing the engine. I was fortunate that the ALDA in my car worked properly. That's often not the case. Developed a hole in the tail pipe, that wasn't a cheap item, and I got it wholesale. Headliner was starting to fall when I sold it. Proper replacement procedure requires removing the rear window. My upholstery guy cautioned me to make sure I had glass coverage before he attempted replacement. The rear window in that car is both expensive and very hard to find.

These are the kinds of issues you face with an old luxury car. And mine was by no means a daily driver: I only drove it 22K miles in 10+ years.
 

Pedalsteel

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Unicorn
Yeah these are what scare me about any w124...I can find w210 with the om606 pretty clean but I'm wondering if the stakes are higher with added complexity and computer control?
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
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Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
With a W210 I'd say the stakes are higher with the known body rust issues.

If you like to tinker these can still be fairly affordable cars. EG, I thought one of the ABS sensors on my SDL was bad. Turns out both front sensors are bad. One side is NLA now, the other is $170-$500 depending on the vendor!

I'm installing a set of sensors I got at the junkyard last weekend...

-J
 

rocky raccoon

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Jun 11, 2020
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Greater metropolitan Beaverdam
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2014 Jetta Sportwagen
I daily-drove my last W123 Diesel (a 1983 300CD) for 8 years and loved every minute of it. It took a couple of hours every month in maintenance however. I finally decided that I wanted a hassle-free driving experience and sold the Benz for enough to pay cash for a 2014 VW TDI JSW.

I got what I wanted. My VW has been dead-nuts reliable and has needed NO corrective maintenance in the three years I have owned it. I have recently had the full timing belt preventive maintenance job done and am pleased with the result. Life is good BUT I am bored with this car and wish I had my old Benz back.
 

Pedalsteel

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I guess I should add that since I made this post I have bought an 83 240D manual. I feel like my decision in some ways has been to become a Mercedes mechanic haha because I literally wrench on it everyday now granted since November I've put like 20,000 miles on the car and it's 40 years old but I literally half the wrench on it just about everyday. My alh wagon needs a bunch of work and I've slowly been getting this car meaning that Mercedes to where I can manage driving it everyday so that I can afford to have the Jetta completely apart in the garage so I'm getting ready to do all of the stuff for that but frankly I'm looking forward to the virtually maintenance-free life of my alh. I really like the Mercedes and it's comfortable to drive but it's a whole lot of tinkering and lots of aged plastic parts and vacuum hoses and not really knowing the ins and outs of the car has been fun but it's been kind of a pain in the ass. I feel like whomever had this car two owners previous to me really didn't do any repair in the manner in which it should have been done so anytime something breaks I'm finding that there's some kind of weird twist to a basic repair job that I have to go through so that aspect of it is not fun and is a big headache
 
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