How big a money pit is a 300d?

Mozambiquer

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Location
Versailles Missouri
TDI
2004 VW Touareg V10 TDI, 2012 Audi Q7 V6 TDI, 1998 VW Jetta TDI. 1982 VW Rabbit pickup, 2001 VW Jetta TDI, 2005 VW Passat wagon TDI X3, 2001 VW golf TDI, 1980 VW rabbit pickup,
I recently saw a 1987 300sdl for $1000 of course it needed work, but it sure tempted me...
 

Pedalsteel

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Location
United States
TDI
Unicorn
What keeps me from the w124 is that most every one in find that I can afford has no ac and you have to take the dash out to fix it...I could probably do the job but i don't want to lol... pretty much across the board the owners selling them know this and how expensive it is to get a shop.to do it so they are selling for absolute highest price hoping for someone to bite when doesn't realize it or who has the bread to dump tons of money into it... this last w124 was a good car with records and a a good owner but I couldn't get to it in time and someone who could got there first...I am eyeing a w126 but the owner I can see hasn't looked at my message yet... I'm guessing he has tons of replies to his ad and someone will get to it before me...aside from that I like the older styling and more primitive design, I think getting in and out of the older model will be easier for my mom who is 74 and had two pretty intense surgeries last year and the ride in my wagon and the amount of room is not cutting it when i also.have my dad with me folded up while i drive...i. like the b4 passats which have more room i think than the mk4 but i don't think the ride will be as good...I will look for a 740 wagon though that could be the ticket... I've had a bunch of vws and am partial to the way they do things but also want my mom to be happy at this time of her life even if I have to fiddle with lots of vacuum related issues with the w123...as long as the one i get is decent that will also quell any bs from my dad who is a Ford dude and I thought I would never hear the end of it when I bought the mk4, not like he has any say in the matter but he seems to think he always knows more... now he raves about it and I get to remind him of how dumb he was...i. mean did the US ever get a Ford diesel that gets 52mpg?...I could give two ****s about status, I mean if it helps me some then great but it's definitely not why i would be buying one... the Mercedes that gets close to the tdi is a 190d and I've looked at those and had someone get to it first, the manual ones are hard to come by. .. none of these cars were close to where I am...i don't find any, at least very very few close that are worth looking at unless they are out of my reach financially... on the subject of mpg i have heard people swear they get over 30 and that could be a bunch of bs but I think 28 is more of a common high point...
 

Mozambiquer

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Location
Versailles Missouri
TDI
2004 VW Touareg V10 TDI, 2012 Audi Q7 V6 TDI, 1998 VW Jetta TDI. 1982 VW Rabbit pickup, 2001 VW Jetta TDI, 2005 VW Passat wagon TDI X3, 2001 VW golf TDI, 1980 VW rabbit pickup,
What keeps me from the w124 is that most every one in find that I can afford has no ac and you have to take the dash out to fix it...I could probably do the job but i don't want to lol... pretty much across the board the owners selling them know this and how expensive it is to get a shop.to do it so they are selling for absolute highest price hoping for someone to bite when doesn't realize it or who has the bread to dump tons of money into it... this last w124 was a good car with records and a a good owner but I couldn't get to it in time and someone who could got there first...I am eyeing a w126 but the owner I can see hasn't looked at my message yet... I'm guessing he has tons of replies to his ad and someone will get to it before me...aside from that I like the older styling and more primitive design, I think getting in and out of the older model will be easier for my mom who is 74 and had two pretty intense surgeries last year and the ride in my wagon and the amount of room is not cutting it when i also.have my dad with me folded up while i drive...i. like the b4 passats which have more room i think than the mk4 but i don't think the ride will be as good...I will look for a 740 wagon though that could be the ticket... I've had a bunch of vws and am partial to the way they do things but also want my mom to be happy at this time of her life even if I have to fiddle with lots of vacuum related issues with the w123...as long as the one i get is decent that will also quell any bs from my dad who is a Ford dude and I thought I would never hear the end of it when I bought the mk4, not like he has any say in the matter but he seems to think he always knows more... now he raves about it and I get to remind him of how dumb he was...i. mean did the US ever get a Ford diesel that gets 52mpg?...I could give two ****s about status, I mean if it helps me some then great but it's definitely not why i would be buying one... the Mercedes that gets close to the tdi is a 190d and I've looked at those and had someone get to it first, the manual ones are hard to come by. .. none of these cars were close to where I am...i don't find any, at least very very few close that are worth looking at unless they are out of my reach financially... on the subject of mpg i have heard people swear they get over 30 and that could be a bunch of bs but I think 28 is more of a common high point...
Yeah, the us got the Ford escort and tempo diesels which got 50+ mpg...
 

Pedalsteel

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Location
United States
TDI
Unicorn
Didn't Ford take gas engines and try to make them work as diesel with those? In my arguing with my dad that was his side of things that Ford "tried the diesel thing and it didn't work"...
 

Mozambiquer

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Location
Versailles Missouri
TDI
2004 VW Touareg V10 TDI, 2012 Audi Q7 V6 TDI, 1998 VW Jetta TDI. 1982 VW Rabbit pickup, 2001 VW Jetta TDI, 2005 VW Passat wagon TDI X3, 2001 VW golf TDI, 1980 VW rabbit pickup,
Didn't Ford take gas engines and try to make them work as diesel with those? In my arguing with my dad that was his side of things that Ford "tried the diesel thing and it didn't work"...
No, they were Mazda RF engines. There were those and the rangers with the 2.2 perkins/Mazda and then the later 2.3 Mitsubishi diesel.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I had an '84 Ranger diesel, it ran OK, but not as good as my '82 Toyota pickup diesel. I think the Ranger was just heavier and they had about the same power. The Ranger's Mazda/Perkins engine was pretty robustly built, though. And it started and ran reliably, it would easily outlast the rest of the truck due to rust (and it did). The Mazda diesel in the cars was a different setup. Coworker's dad had an Escort with one, car was flawless. I should have bought it... I did get his F150 at least.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
...In 1986 they changed over to the new OM603, but you could only get it in the long wheelbase "SDL" body. Couldn't understand why they made that decision. That was just too much car for most uses... The best combo would have been the short body with the late 6cyl engine but as far as I am aware, that was never available in the US.
For 1991 you could get the 350SD. They made just over 2000 of them. Being 91s they all have the Becker Mexico 2000 "2 piece" radio system which is a pain to fix when it fails. You could also option ASD - a limited slip differential, with a computer controlled lockup. IBW's 300D had this system too. It's fairly simple and AFAIK quite reliable. Also, being a 91 diesel it will have a 3 piece driveshaft. This is the most difficult part to find reman on the whole car IMO. Ask me how I know....

Unfortunately, the 3.5l OM603.970 had an about 50% failure rate. MB never shared exactly why they would bend rods and oval pistons, but what we do know is they revised the pistons, piston oil coolers, connecting rods, cylinder head, and head gasket. The engines would fail around 60-100k miles, so if you come across one with 120k that's running perfect, it's likely to continue doing so. One with 30k miles is in the "danger zone" IMO.

My 91 350SDL got a MB reman engine installed in 2001. The engine was made in 1998, and has all the updated pieces. It uses no oil, and gets about 24 mpg with my heavy foot. Remember, MB didn't put lockup torque converters in their transmissions until 1997.

On ay W126 or other 80s MB, hidden rust is a huge problem. The seam sealer and undercoating MB used dries out, shrinks, and cracks over time. This lets moisture get under the protective coating. You'll go to investigate a small rust mark or water leak, start poking, and find you have quarter sized rust holes hidden under the material. It's a huge bummer. Again, ask me how I know....

-J
 

d24tdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Location
MT
TDI
96 B4V
^^ Good to know, I had never seen or heard of one of those. I have seen that rod bender 3.5 motor in a few of the early short wheelbase W140 but I thought that was the only vehicle that had them, didn't realize they ended up in a few late W126 also. From what I understand the engines that have had the improvements are good.

For me the '87 W124 300TD wagon is still the only model that would really justify the trouble of keeping one on the road, out of the older generations of MB diesels. Some of the newer cars from the '90s and '00s (late W210 E300 turbo, W211 E320 CDI with the 648 inline motor) have more appeal, and even the V6 Bluetec modern models have a lot going for them. But I think those are outside the realm of the OP's question on old 300D's. I have to say I just think those older cars are not worth the effort, certainly when viewed through the modern lens, but even compared to the alternatives from the same era. Maybe good as a curiosity or garage queen for an MB fan, but as something to actually drive, the cost of ownership / reliability / driving experience / poor mpg just don't add up to a good equation for a transportation tool. If he's coming from a VE era TDI he would be greatly disappointed on all those counts.
 

Pedalsteel

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Location
United States
TDI
Unicorn
I think if I end up with a 300d it will be a w123 that's currently being driven...I drove one last week that was really overpriced for what it was but I like the cars feel, suspension and visibility while driving... kind of reminded me of my '74 BMW 2002...unfortunately I have a liking for old cars that still run and have had a few of them... the sound of the cast engines in these is pretty sweet but bc they are so old it's like pandoras box unless it's just something you can drive and live with and get it cheap enough that if it dies you can just sell it and not be out much or any money...
 

d24tdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Location
MT
TDI
96 B4V
I like the cars feel, suspension and visibility while driving...
If you like this era and vibe of vehicle, and want a diesel, try to find an early '80s Volvo 240 diesel or 740/760 turbodiesel. Better cars, cheaper to buy and own, much nicer to drive. They share the same feeling of lots of glass, great visibility, tight turning radius, nice seats and space in the interior, classic looks, etc. But they don't have 45-year-old vacuum hoses running throughout the car, the suspension and brake systems are simpler and much more robust, parts cost much less, etc. And at least in the case of the 700 series, the entire climate control system is a GM design meaning it works great, is reliable, and is cheap and easy to maintain. The opposite of the Benz situation.

If all else were equal I would also suggest looking for a BMW 524td or Peugeot 505 TD or 604 TD. Both are also far superior vehicles to the Mercedes to drive/maintain/own (my personal opinion at least) in terms of expensive European diesel sedans from that era. BUT all else is not equal -- the BMW and Peugeot cars are very limited in existence and parts/tools/knowledge for them are if anything even harder to find. Pain to own something where that is the case, even if you did find a car in decent shape. That is really the only major advantage to the Benz diesels -- there are still so many around, and parts/resources are plentiful.

But the Volvos do have that same advantage. Still tons of gasser Volvos on the road so body and chassis parts are everywhere, plus Volvo still supports the '80s cars quite well at the dealer level. The diesel engine in the Volvos is not as common but it has the advantage of sharing almost every part in the engine (except for the block, head, camshaft, crankshaft, and a few gaskets specific to those parts) with any number of other VW/Audi diesel and gas engines. So most everything you need to keep one going is readily available and cheap.

There's my sales pitch, having dealt with many examples of all of these back in the day (yep even the BMWs and Pugs, and other oddballs)
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
From videos I've seen the BMW 524td is quite a bit slower than the 3.0 6 cylinder Mercedes. I'd also think getting parts for the MB will be **much** easier because so many more were sold here.

A lost of the vacuum lines inside the MB are actually hard plastic. Of course there are rubber diaphragms in the actuators that go bad.

Volvo sourced their engines from VW - same engine family as the 4 cylinder 1.6, and 5 cylinder used in the 5000.

All MB engine parts are expensive. The OM617 engines are well built, but many are getting long in the tooth at this point. To replace the liners, bearings, and rings is several thousand dolllars.

-J
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
My 300SD was an infinitely nicer driving and feeling car than my 740 GLE, despite it being two years older and having covered twice the miles. It was peppier, too, once it got past the initial lag. The engine wasn't as smooth, but it wouldn't be... a 3.0L 5 vs. a 2.4L 6. The Volvo had also had to have its head taken off TWICE, the S-class was all 100% original under the hood, save for the belts, the GM A/C compressor, the air cleaner mounts, and the fuel primer plunger.

Of course, you also had an actual MB engine... in the car that wore the same name. Transplant stuff is always dodgy, even when those diesel Volvos were not that old, the Volvo dealers gave you a blank stare if you asked for anything related to the engine.

Of course, that seemed to be common with the diesels back in the "glory days" of the mid-'80s.
 

Pedalsteel

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Location
United States
TDI
Unicorn
How much more doggy is the na om617 than the turbo? How direct is a turbo om617 swap into a car that previously had the na? Should be easy right? Can the clutch and trans from a 240d hold up to the turbo of the 617? I've heard it can and others say it won't...just how bad are the ac/heat units in the early w123? I found a sweet clean early na w123 and I'm thinking of going for it and dealing with the non turbo-ness of the acceleration... found a nice 126 also for a bit more money in a cool hard to find color combo im a little daunted by the bigness of the 126 but I dig them... never driven one...
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well there is no lag on the non-turbo models... but there is not any boost either. :p The non-turbo 5 in the W123 is not horrible, but not great. The 240D is a slug, but actually once they are at cruising speed they are perfectly fine. My W115 240D would cruise along at 70 (and it was an automatic) and was nice to drive. Around town it was kinda easy, too... just floor it and hold it there until you got to whatever speed you wanted to be. :)

By today's standards, they are pretty abysmal. But we've gotten spoiled.
 

rocky raccoon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Location
Greater metropolitan Beaverdam
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagen
Pedal; I have had both. I had a 1976 300D W115 and two W123 300D turbocharged, an 84 and an 83 300CD. Hammer is correct in that the '76 was fine when up to speed but is took a long time to get there. Hills, merging and passing took some advance planning but were definitely do-able. One of my most favorite trips was 3000 miles in the '76.

When I traded into the turbocharged '84 it was a different story. The car felt more solid and it was able to keep up with any traffic out there. It was more like a modern car. The 300CD was my favorite. I had it 8 years and to this day I regret selling it.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I don't know where or how you people drive, but frequently when I get outside of metro Boston (or NY, when I'm down there), the left lane traffic is frequently moving at 80+ MPH. And on a recent trip to Maine, when coming home through NH, the left lane on I93 was running at 95+. My 300D would hold 80, but it was turning over 3000 RPM at that speed. My TDIs with taller 5ths are running 2600 RPM at 80. My BMW and MKVI is at 2200.

Ten years ago these older cars could easily keep up with traffic. Not anymore, at least not where I live, or at least not without feeling like you're abusing them. That's especially true for a 240D.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
That's the main reason I decided to retire my '91 Jetta as a daily driver. It could hold 80, so long as it wasn't too hot... and the A/C drug it down pretty bad. The last few years I drove it, I went home a way that avoided the Interstate. There were also increasing instances of people riding your ass getting up to speed that never used to be all that frequent. I think cars in general getting more ridiculously powerful, more automatic transmissions, and by far dumber populace, combines to make it difficult to drive a "slow" car. People (at least most people) know that a schoolbus or a big dump truck or semi cannot accelerate to highway speeds quickly, but they don't know that some old cars can't either.

But around town, stop and go, and surface streets at 45 or so, they do fine. My '79 Rabbit was actually quite peppy around town. A friend called it a "scrappy little traffic fighter" once... little, nimble, good (great, actually) visibility... and lightweight.

Luckily the TDIs, any of them, can handle modern traffic. I was doing over 100 this morning in my Golf. There were semi trucks going over 85. I'd actually contemplated having Jeff take the 83 MPH speed limiter off my Sprinter, because we'd bump up against it quite a bit.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
I'd thought about swapping the V8 rear end into my SDL for those 80+ MPH extended cruises in MI. Not as much of an issue in VA since that's an automatic reckless driving ticket...

-J
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Jason, the traffic there is other-worldly awful bad. California is worse, but yours is still pretty awful. There are a boatload of foreigners around the capital that clearly don't know how to drive. Or at least, don't know how to drive properly.

Baltimore was pretty bad, too. White knuckle experience for me.
 

Pedalsteel

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Location
United States
TDI
Unicorn
I'm in Ohio... all kinds of situations and permutations here on the road both fast and slow haha... but I rarely go 75 bc the police will pull you over so I'm a 72 mph cruiser mostly...i have hugged the right lane and kept the rpms at 2200 which is going pretty slow but at 11:30 at night it's OK... I'd love an affordable easily installed gear vendors or equivalent system for these older Benz...the tdi while not as comfy suspension wise is considerably more of a money saver and fun to drive but when you are hauling your 74 yr old parents around their sporting days are behind them and they prefer a cloudy float and my mom has always loved the w123 but had lincolns bc my dad is a Ford die hard so I'm looking to fulfill her wishes while I can and learn some cool mechanical old school stuff and enjoy the ride but pulling the trigger and finding a suitable car has been difficult in Ohio
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I stumbled upon the world of the OM606 and will never be the same... Would love to stuff one in a 190D: some people have. Given that fuel mileage becomes basically moot a 300D in either a sedan or a wagon (such as below) would be fine!

As the owner put it: 180 mph in a (roughly) 30 year-old car is mental!

I just love the color.
 

benIV

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Location
Southeast NC
TDI
2003 PG 5m Jetta GL Sedan, 2003 RS 5m Jetta GLS Wagon (Golf Variant)
My first car was an 81 300d (non-turbo). I have been looking for years for a 300d or any mb diesel 1983 and older. I have found only one and I was getting cash out and he sold it to someone else. still on the lookout for one or multiples.
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Diesel or no, the saying still applies, "Nothing is as expensive as a cheap Mercedes."
I'm putting this saying to the test. This spring I bought a 1975 300D for $1150 and have recently gotten around to getting it running again. So far I've bled the brakes, replaced transmission fluid and filter, put on new tires and replaced some bulbs. Oil and fuel filters will soon be changed, but so far it runs, drives and stops quite nicely. I am in about $800 over purchase price, including the tires, a battery, and permanent registration. Snow will be flying here before too long, but I am looking forward to putting some miles on it next spring and summer.
 

dogdots

Vendor
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Location
Kansas City
TDI
None
I had a W124 2.5 for 8 years, sold it last Summer. It was a lovely car, but in truth I didn't drive it much. What oilhammer says about these cars is true, and they truly are built like bricks, and fairly easy to work on. Fortunately I never had any problems with the vacuum system, which is fairly complex and runs EVERYTHING: Door locks, HVAC, even the transmission shifting.


Back in the 80s I had a Peugeot 505D, and the M-B reminded me of a better version of that car. I still love old Pugs, but I can't imagine what it would take to find parts for one of those.
Yup "Central Locking" troubleshooting is quite the treat :ROFLMAO:
 

dogdots

Vendor
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Location
Kansas City
TDI
None
My W123 240D 4 speed manual couldn't do this...but in my E90 335d it seems to happen almost every time I drive it.

speeding copy.JPG
 

Diesel Larry

Active member
Joined
Jul 27, 2008
Location
Sarasota, FL
TDI
'09 Jetta
I still miss my 300D on occasion. Especially when I try to find a mysterious battery drain in my Jetta. Can't really compare the two cars....apples and oranges - both quite tasty. One thing that was always a stone in my shoe, was the 2 gallons of oil every 3k miles for oil changes. - Using filtered fryer oil for fuel additive helped it run smoother, and helped with fuel cost (usually a 20/80 oil/diesel mix). If I come across a decent 300D, I may have to ask the wife for forgiveness ;) :D
 
Top