Hot tightened exhaust manifold nuts

tdihopeful

Veteran Member
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California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
Is there a way to run an ALH while still being able to access the exhaust manifold nuts to tighten them after engine reaches operating temperature or an alternative perhaps using a heat gun or blow torch on the studs to achieve a nut set that won't tend to slacken over time? I have gotten to my exhaust manifold and found the nuts were not very tight. I have made note of an exhaust leak and will be replacing the exhaust gaskets as well as the nuts. Wondering if anyone bothers to do this or a similar procedure other than a one time nuts torqued.
 

tdihopeful

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Location
California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
Also is there a way to remove the exhaust manifold enough to slide out the old gaskets and in the new without having to remove the studs from the block? Would this involve removing the is it called "down pipe"? Post turbo exhaust section?
 

TurboABA

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Kitchener, ON
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What is it that you're trying to solve with this hot tightening technique that you've come up with?
 

tdihopeful

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California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
A Filament Deposition 3-D Printer for example uses a brass or steel nozzle that threads into a typically aluminum block with an electric heater in it and melts the plastic filament that is driven into it extruding a bead of hot plastic layer by layer creating a 3 dimensional model. The brass or steel nozzle on the printer needs to be tightened while heated or it will become loose once the aluminum heat block is heated if only tightened while cold.

This is evidence/necessitated by the phenomenon of thermal expansion. I suspect that the reason why the exhaust stud nuts on my car were relatively loose and the exhaust gaskets were perhaps damaged and the result was an exhaust leak was because the nuts were tightened while the engine was cold and there was no attempt to mitigate the effects thermal expansion would subsequently have.
 

Mongler98

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COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
What in tarnation?
Just install them and torque them properly
No need to reinvent the wheel here.
Who told you or where did you find the info about hot torquing?
Yea I can see retorqueing them after a few heat cycles but that's stupid and pointless.
 

TurboABA

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EPIC.
Things have come loose and backed off on many things that are exposed to hear cycles and vibration. Try using something simple like "oval" locking nuts or any other form of mechanical locking washer/nut. Hell, I used to safety wire my manifold bolts back in the days when I couldn't keep them from snapping and/or backing off
 

Tdijarhead

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Lawrenceville PA
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2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Daughters car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
You can remove the gasket without taking the studs out but to get the gasket off you will need to completely remove the intake manifold and the egr piping that is connected to it.

Get some new copper pinch nuts they will not loosen. The ones on there currently have likely been reused and no longer lock themselves in place.

 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Just peen over the threads into the nuts. You know it wont matter when you strip out the heads threads!
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
The proper exhaust manifold nuts are self-locking "Stover" nuts. Just use those, torque to spec and they won't back off.
 

DivineChaos

Top Post Dawg
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Jul 27, 2019
Location
Minnesota
TDI
mk6 jetta sportwagen tdi
A Filament Deposition 3-D Printer for example uses a brass or steel nozzle that threads into a typically aluminum block with an electric heater in it and melts the plastic filament that is driven into it extruding a bead of hot plastic layer by layer creating a 3 dimensional model. The brass or steel nozzle on the printer needs to be tightened while heated or it will become loose once the aluminum heat block is heated if only tightened while cold.

This is evidence/necessitated by the phenomenon of thermal expansion. I suspect that the reason why the exhaust stud nuts on my car were relatively loose and the exhaust gaskets were perhaps damaged and the result was an exhaust leak was because the nuts were tightened while the engine was cold and there was no attempt to mitigate the effects thermal expansion would subsequently have.
Why you have to tighten them when hot is in case theirs a bit of plastic still there. Way over thinking there bud. There is a recheck on some things. Most are spec to overtight, so after a heat cycle things settle and relax.
 

tdihopeful

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Location
California
TDI
03 2dr 5sp Golf
Thanks for the parts recommend. I have a new set of copper nuts and the Intake and most of the EGR components are off. The EGR cooler is still on there. You didn't mention anything about having to loosen exhaust components or anything other than what I've already done. I don't see being able to get the manifold above the studs without needing to loosen exhaust someplace. I guess I'll see. "Divine chaos" bud I operated a 3D printer in like 2010-2011 one of the first largely available commercial 3D printers. You're comment about the 3D printer makes absolutely no sense.
 

tdihopeful

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California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
My response seems cocky and I'm not trying to be like that. I consider myself relatively humble. To say I'm overthinking I disagree. The concepts I'm discussing are sound in spirit. Not exactly a Rocket but the principals of mechanical engineering and materials science are there. I don't think it would be appreciated to tell a rocket scientist that they're "overthinking". Just for ****s and giggles I'll include a photo of my car in my garage. Oh that's great I guess not because I'd have to go to the trouble of setting up a media/photo sharing account in order to guilt trip you with the deplorable conditions I have to work in and the deplorable conditions of my TDI.
Probably for the best.
 

TurboABA

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Kitchener, ON
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W T effffff are you even barking about?
You're throwing terms like "mech eng" around and can't even figure out how to post a picture?
Are you crying "poor me" and you want some pity or is that your crappy way of asking for help on how to post a pic?
 

TurboABA

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Joined
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Location
Kitchener, ON
TDI
RIP-2010 Jetta 6spd 2014 Touareg Execline
 

tdihopeful

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California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
Barking about my right to freedom of speech? TurboABA you joined TDIClub July 24 2010. I joined October 23 2008. Is that anyway to address you're elder?
 

TurboABA

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RIP-2010 Jetta 6spd 2014 Touareg Execline
Sorry Gramps! I guess that explains why you struggle so much with technology and trying to post a pic! :sneaky:
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
What was the original problem with your car?

I must admit to skimming your stream-of-conciousness on 3D printer filament nozzles the first time.

This time i did not. Your nozzles and these studs and nuts are not the same. As above, new exhaust manifold nuts are self locking. They are also one time use only. I suspect someone tried to reuse yours or didnt torque them properly. As printer nozzles are not self-locking, not subjected to the same temperatures, and seating in aluminum, not steel, other than both as threaded fasteners, there is no alegory here. Just go with the proper stover nuts and torque to spec. None of this hot-torque stuff applies or is required.

Also, the exhaust manifold gasket requires the manifold to come off the studs in order to be replaced.
 

tdihopeful

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
There would in fact be several ways. Remove the studs, second what is normal procedure of moving the manifold beyond the studs or destructive removal of the old gaskets and use of a hi temp gasket maker or one other way I can think of. Windex when you say
"I must admit to skimming your stream-of-conciousness on 3D printer filament nozzles the first time."
What does that mean exactly in spirit. Because what I wrote about 3D printers was not a flow-of-consciousness. You seem to be implying that you have access to personal information of mine that you took from if this is the fact just let me know where I can find you.
 

TurboABA

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Joined
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Kitchener, ON
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RIP-2010 Jetta 6spd 2014 Touareg Execline
Lol... If you're looking for him, he's basically on the opposite side of the continent from you. Google Earth should give you an idea.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Dude, chill out. I don't know anything about you other than you still haven't stated your original problem with the car. You seem to be avoiding that...

Did you mess something up?

Either way - if you want to remove all the exhaust studs in lieu of pulling the manifold far enough off to change the gasket, go nuts.

It'll take you twice as long for no reason.

*puts on tinfoil hat and sends evil brain-waves to California*

I'm up in Canada - Cambridge Ontario to be precise. If you're coming over, lemme know when and I'll have a cold beer waiting for you.
 

tdihopeful

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
Turbo do you think I lifted my profile avatar from a random Dropbox account. Obviously I struggle terribly with technology. Actually it's that with the many struggles in my life technology being one I appreciate things like simply being able to upload a photo directly from the comment page without intermediaries. Having to jump through hoops and having more entities involved increases the chance that there is incompetence, negligence, or undermining of all manner of things. Computer technology has unarguably enabled a massive number of people unskilled and impatient to conduct fraud and malicious conduct abusing a technology that could be used for far better uses and as an honest/genuinely helpful platform. As far as my seeming paranoia we'll go ahead and deny data collection and spying sort of activities all you want. I have said again and again that I don't want people doing that to me but it has persisted. As far as a cold beer no... You know I prefer a beer warm and in a bottle or as a fire arm target. No one beer won't do it I need a brewery now if I could just remember that best ever name for a microbrew I thought up that one time... Thanks thanks anyway. And if we could get back to a honest discussion of Automobiles and more often Volkswagen Group TDI that would be ok with me.
 

tdihopeful

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Joined
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Location
California
TDI
03 2dr 5sp Golf
Here TurboABA why when I attempt to view my messages on my eBay account am I redirected to the eBay home page? Is it because I don't understand now to touch the screen on my phone at the place where I see the word messages?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Getting back to your original question: no need to do anything special like retorque of the nuts after a heat cycle. They are locking type nuts to begin with, and that big chunky washer they have under them is actually made so as to allow for another form of locking by expansion when hot. It is normal for them to not feel very tight when you loosen them from cold. But as the engine (exhaust) gets hot, those little chunky steel washers expand, and push against the bottom of the self locking stove nuts off of the head.... further keeping them in place during the heat cycles.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Daughters car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Getting back to your original question: no need to do anything special like retorque of the nuts after a heat cycle. They are locking type nuts to begin with, and that big chunky washer they have under them is actually made so as to allow for another form of locking by expansion when hot. It is normal for them to not feel very tight when you loosen them from cold. But as the engine (exhaust) gets hot, those little chunky steel washers expand, and push against the bottom of the self locking stove nuts off of the head.... further keeping them in place during the heat cycles.

I always wondered what those were for. Once again I learn something that I didn’t know. I have installed at least one intake without them.
 

tdihopeful

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Joined
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Location
California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
Just because a thing is advertised as being able to do the job it is supposedly intended for doesn't mean it will do that job at all much less do it well. I'm looking at what appears to be a bolt holding a plastic section of Intercooler to turbo tube to the cars frame. I'm pretty certain what I'm looking at isn't a bolt at all. It's a clip of whatever type that is disguised as a bolt? Why is that? This **** is assinine and I'm now considering buying cars and stripping out as many screws, rounding off as many bolts and otherwise causing others to experience this engineered hostility that I'm experiencing.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
If you are struggling with something as brutally simple as an ALH, you really should put the tools down and pay someone else to do whatever it is you need to do. I work on all kinds of cars, every day, and the ALH (and the car in which it rests) is a cake easy car to work on. It is easily one of the simplest engine management systems of the modern era, and a simple engine overall at that.
 

cevans

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Hingham, MA
TDI
2015 Beetle Conv. TDI 6-Speed & 2006 E320 CDI
If you are struggling with something as brutally simple as an ALH, you really should put the tools down and pay someone else to do whatever it is you need to do. I work on all kinds of cars, every day, and the ALH (and the car in which it rests) is a cake easy car to work on. It is easily one of the simplest engine management systems of the modern era, and a simple engine overall at that.

🔥🚒
 

tdihopeful

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Location
California
TDI
03 2dr 5sp Golf
I never complained about the Engine Management system of the ALH. I did not say nor imply that it was a mechanically complex engine.
 
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