High Diesel prices, does a hybrid make more sense in the U.S?

[milehighassassin]

Okay, so I got ~ 47mpg on my last tank @ 701 miles. With Diesel at $4.099 and RUG at $3.199, that means I have to be doing better than 36.5 MPG on a gasser to break even...now...when the spread is worse than ever before. There is a very short list of cars that would accomplish this at 70+ MPH, and even fewer (actually zero) that I would actually drive. Sorry. Lemme see, Prius, Civic hybrid, Civic and Sentra maybe? No thanks. The one advantage to me, if I ever bought a hybrid, is that they're all automatics, so my left foot would be free to kick myself in the a$$ in disgust anytime I was drving it.

Oh, and with about $1100 into the effort (Konis, Springs, RC2) my car drives, accelerates, handles and generally feels better at almost 160k with 15s and snow tires on it than the day I drove it off the lot.

Why the doom-and-gloom talk this year? Isn't there always a spread at this time of year? Doesn't it always come back? We'll settle in somewhere between 3.899 and 4.199 for both fuels by Memorial Day, and order wll be restored.

I had a Nissan Altima as a rental that I LOVED. I averaged 30 MPG the entire time I had it and I drove it like i do my Golf.

 

[TDInownow]

Yeah, I know a few people w/ Altimas and I do like them, but 30MPG is still ~ 20% less than 36.5 I'd have to get in a gasser to break even on a cost basis with my 47 MPG tanks. In all fairness, the only hybrid that even comes close to interesting me right now is the Altima, but they're only rated at 33 hwy, and that's 90% of my driving.

Can one enhance the performance of a hybrid at all without significantly effecting the MPG? Mods are half (or more) the fun.

 

[milehighassassin]

Yeah, I know a few people w/ Altimas and I do like them, but 30MPG is still ~ 20% less than 36.5. In all fairness, the only hybrid that even comes close to interesting me right now is the Altima, but they're only rated at 33 hwy, and that's 90% of my driving.

Can one enhance the performance of a hybrid at all without significantly effecting the MPG? Mods are half (or more) the fun.

Right now RUD is $3.05 and Diesel is $3.80

That is about 25% more $$
I know modding is fun, but when fuel prices are shooting upwards like they are now, I really don't have the money to mod.

 

[NB_TDi]

You guys are great. Diesel is $1.37 here a Liter. That's much more than you guys pay. I'm still getting better mileage than a gasser. I'm keeping my car until the wheels fall off.

 

[Robert Rogers]

My crystal ball tells me that the 200mpg car is just around the corner, like 2011 or 2012. VW and a few others already have them and claim that they will be in production soon.

I'll hold onto my little 2.0L gasser beetle that gets 25mpg around town, and 30+ on long trips. It's hard to justify paying $15-25k for a diesel or hybrid right now unless you need a new car anyway. If I needed it, I would definitely go TDI beetle or jetta!

 

[TornadoRed]

My crystal ball tells me that the 200mpg car is just around the corner, like 2011 or 2012. VW and a few others already have them and claim that they will be in production soon.

There are diesel motorcycles that get around 100 mpg or maybe a little more. I don't think any kind of car, no matter how small, will ever exceed that.

 

[NB_TDi]

There are diesel motorcycles that get around 100 mpg or maybe a little more. I don't think any kind of car, no matter how small, will ever exceed that.

Some insurance company in the US is holding a contest for someone who creates a car that can get 100MPG.

 

[yoseppi]

I sure hope USLD comes down below RUG after the excuse of the 10% of the population that still uses heating oil affecting ALL the diesel across the US.

But it seems they already have a new bull**** story already pre-concocted to explain if diesel doesn't come down. Apparently THIS year diesel is now connected to the world market for price since diesel is used more overseas, and supplies are strained overseas, although we make our diesel HERE.

I'm carefully watching to see what diesel does after this latest BS line from the news.

 

[TornadoRed]

But it seems they already have a new bull**** story already pre-concocted to explain if diesel doesn't come down. Apparently THIS year diesel is now connected to the world market for price since diesel is used more overseas, and supplies are strained overseas, although we make our diesel HERE.

I'm carefully watching to see what diesel does after this latest BS line from the news.

Why do you believe this is BS? What part of it fails to explain the prices of gas and diesel? Domestic supply and demand do not explain anything -- relatively ample fuel supplies would argue for lower prices, if bids from foreign buyers were not propping them up.

 

[Mtogburn]

Yup,
Gat a hybrid. But make it a hybrid diesel. I still don't think it is fair to compare a hybrid gas car to a regular diesel vehicle. Jeep has an experimental hybrid diesel. Give the automakers a little more time and by a hybrid diesel. If you really want a hybrid. Later Mike

 

[Kabin]

Diesel hybrids would be nice. Peterbuilt has a few hybrid diesel designs they're working on. They claim higher reliabilty and less maintenance costs. Hybrids look to be the interim solution until something better proves itself.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Great, a 200 MPG car! Then the oil companies will start charging $12/gallon.

On the bright side, we'd be doing a good thing for the environment.

 

[Mtogburn]

Hey Guys,
My Pops just emailed this link to me. Thought you all might like the teader. I guess it won't be here for a few years since it won't hit Britian til next year. But here's the link fo you all to enjoy.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/03/revealed-volksw.html

Later Mike

 

[bokeh]

Can't comment on fuel prices in the US because I'm not there. Here diesel is cheaper than petrol but getting close due to the high crude prices and winter heating needs (which are almost over).

I recently had to choose a new car and narrowed my choices to the Toyota Prius III or the BlueMotion Golf (which is available here from next month). The Toyota is about 3000€ more expensive (which is equivelant to 700 US gallons of diesel at todays prices, enough to do 38,000 miles).

Next thing I looked at was the test cycles to see how they compared to my use. What I found was the urban cycle has an average speed of 11 mph and the highway cycle has and average speed around 45 mph.

These figures didn't make a lot of sense to me so I did some tests of my own. I kept a diary of journey times and distances that I was doing and found my urban cycle was double this (22 mph) and highway average was near 70 mph (speed limit here on the highway is 75 mph but most people drive between 75 and 90 mph).

According to the fuel consumption curves I have seen the Toyota returns better mpg under 35 mph (infinitely better when stationary) and the BlueMotion better mpg above 40 mph. This means the tests favour the Toyota but in the really world who drives on the highway at an average speed of 45 mph?

I'd really love to see mpg figures for a ten mile trip on cruise control at 70 mph for both cars. I'd bet the Toyota would use 50% more fuel under those circumstances.

Bottom line: I ordered the Golf.

 

[milehighassassin]

I haven't looked into teh Bluemotion much, but what is the refill time of the amonia? Aprox. how many miles?

 

[bokeh]

what is the refill time of the amonia?

Well I'm on the other side of the pond so cars here have to satisfy European emissions legislation rather than Tier II, but, from what I hear the 1.9 TDI powered Jetta for the United States market does not need Adblue technology (due to its naturally low NOx output compared to bigger cars) and instead uses an NOx adsorber catalyst that doesn't require any reducing agent.

 

[Mtogburn]

Yeah,
That is what I heard to the new Bluetech style CRD that is getting ready to be introduced meets the clean air standards here at home. Later Mike

 

[milehighassassin]

That's good to hear.

 

[Dimitri16V]

Why do you believe this is BS? What part of it fails to explain the prices of gas and diesel? Domestic supply and demand do not explain anything -- relatively ample fuel supplies would argue for lower prices, if bids from foreign buyers were not propping them up.

Domestic supply and demand is EVERYTHING , when my taxes subsidize the oil companies. If BIG OIL wants to bring up "free market" and "supply demand", they don't need my subsidies. Lets throw in a state owned oil company to compete with them, take away all the domestic oil fields they use paying the government squat and see how fast they come to their senses.
the latest spin by BIG OIlL in yesterdays hearing was the unfair competition they face from foreign state owned oil companies. excuse me but wasn't our goverment that hand over UNICOL to Chevron not so long ago because the chinese might buy it ?
But we expect the Russian, Iranian, Venezuaelan governments to hand over their resources to them .
Fair free market , that term only gets invoked when it suits our corporations.

On the topic, buying a hybrid makes sense. D2 will $ 5 in winter.

 

[TornadoRed]

Domestic supply and demand is EVERYTHING , when my taxes subsidize the oil companies. If BIG OIL wants to bring up "free market" and "supply demand", they don't need my subsidies.

I learned a few things from that hearing. I learned that the big number -- around $15 billion in tax credits, etc. -- was for a 10-year period. Per year, it's just a pittance. (I thought that with all the complaints about these subsidies, that it must be that much every year.)

Then another congressman asked, well, if it's such a small amount compared to the total sales/profits/etc, then why is it important? One of the executives replied that most of the tax subsidies were not petroleum specific, that companies in many industries benefit from the same tax laws, and they don't think oil companies should be specifically excluded as it would be unfair to their shareholders.

I certainly can't argue with that. Let's get rid of all corporate subsidies, not just for certain unpopular industries. While we're at it, how about cleaning up the tax code for individual taxpayers, too, getting rid of tax credits for this and that and everything else? Then tax corporate income once, either at the corporate level, or at the individual level when dividends are paid and capital gains are accrued. But stop the double/triple taxation.

The downside of this would be that the Finance Committee wouldn't have anything to do, and its members wouldn't be able to solicit such large campaign "contributions".

 

[slammer449]

I own a 2003 civic hybrid and can get aftermarket replacement batteries for around 1500. I have not seen any of the civics that need battery replacement before 150000 . As to the civc vs my 03 jetta tdi the jetta is a much nicer car. the ride quality,handling and the feeling of it being much more solid car stand out. The hybrid is pretty slow and very boring to drive compared to the Jetta alsnly one problem . My wife drove the jetta and she loves it and won't give it back so now I have to drive the hybrid.

 

[Rod Bearing]

There are thousands of posts all over the internet about the Prius and Civics not getting near their hyped mileage numbers. Prius avg 40-44, and the Civics are closer to 34-38.

If our government was doing it's job it'd have the Toyota and Honda CEO's in front of a congressional panel asking then to fess up and tell the American public the truth!

Hybrid owners who are comparing their cost per mile betw Hybrid and Diesels aren't living in reality nor are they taking the market adjustment (ripoff) customers are paying for hybrids into account. While the Diesel VW is more than it's gas counterpart, it far exceeds the gasser in mpg and is much lower cost per mile when all factors are weighed.

On average here in my area it's about a $4,000.00 price gouge for a hybrid over it's gasoline only cousin. The Hybrids are stripped down and ride worse and are noisier, can't get out of their own way, cost more to insure, and certainly cost more to maintain due to complexity of systems. How many tanks of fuel will it take to recover all that for a minimal gain in mileage over the gas only version? A Civic for example is less than 10mpg better as a hybrid.

My 06 TDI Jetta will get 50 mpg or darn close on the freeway all day long, and blow the hybrids into the weeds while doing so. I can sit in it easily for long trips and not feel beat down when it's over.

There are lots of talking points floating around about hybrids, but until a diesel hybrid hits the markets, these hybrid cars are all hype.

http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2004/05/63413

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/10/prius_mileage_1.html

 

[Hot Georgia]

Actually, the Civic hybrids do get about the advertised average MPG.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/honda-civiccvt.html

I bought mine on Jan 18 2004 and have a lifetime mileage of just over 60MPG. I drive about 50 miles to work, almost exclusive freeway and take moderate fuel saving techniques. I drive about the speed limit, avoid heavy acceleration, use momentum etc. Tires lasted about 88,000 miles and at 110,000 miles have plenty of brake pads left. No additional or extraordinary maintenance.

The car starts/runs/drives as if off the lot and have been very satisfied with it.

I bought mine at MSRP (About $1,000 over a comparable EX) and are sold almost maxed out with accessories and have extras not available on other Civics such as noise deadening frames (Filled with noise absorbers, panel insulaton etc) and other perks. Civic's are fitted with double wishbone rear suspensions, while many other vehicles the same size are fitted with just a trailing bar.

A regular Civic gets around 32MPG, with the highest hypermiling figure I've seen is in the low 40's. That's pretty good, but I've had mine above 70MPG. (See my signiture)
While I don't try for 70MPG tanks anymore, I still average better than 60 rather easily.
Both the Jetta TDI and Civic hybrid are approx 11sec 0-60.

What I'm saying here is both vehicles make great cars, get great fuel mileage and superior alternatives to a regular gasser. If someone were to post a number of stereotypical falsehoods regarding diesel autos, I'd be (and am) just as quick to defend them.

-Steve

 

[Rod Bearing]

Of course, a hybrid only website....reports favorable hybrid talking points..

But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati, Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg.

"I feel like a complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license plate that says MO MILES," says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000 miles his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip. The tenor of Blackshaw's blog shifted from adulation to frustration after his Honda dealer confirmed that his car was functioning properly, and that there was nothing he could do.

Blackshaw, who is chief customer satisfaction officer at Intelliseek.com, spoke to a Honda regional manager about his concerns, and wrote a letter to a Honda vice president on April 15 that was not answered. His story has been echoed dozens of times online by owners of the Honda Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius.

You have a special Civic because even Honda won't go that far out on a limb to claim their Hybrids are doing what you claim yours does.

And I'm not having a go at you here, just stating the majority aren't close to that.

Even Toyota and Honda admit the EPA estimates are way off above reality. Hell even the EPA admits it. The formula for their numbers is a 1972 database.

 

[Drivbiwire]

Not bad for a 4300# car without a hype-brid drive

One other thing that was with B5 fuel in case anybody thinks thats cheating.

DB

 

[Rod Bearing]

http://www.emdiesels.com/lms/en/locomotive/innovations/engine/Hengine/index.htm

I've worked on EMD and GE locomotive engines and the efficiency they are achieving nowadays is amazing compared to just 5 years ago. They are implementing regeneration braking to capture the wasted energy of braking these monsters, so that's another step in the right direction.

I hope we see a Golf TDI Hybrid this year, but likely not. Diesel Hybrid cars and trucks are the best solution, for now.

 

[bokeh]

http://www.emdiesels.com/lms/en/locomotive/innovations/engine/Hengine/index.htm

I've worked on EMD and GE locomotive engines and the efficiency they are achieving nowadays is amazing compared to just 5 years ago. They are implementing regeneration braking to capture the wasted energy of braking these monsters, so that's another step in the right direction.

I hope we see a Golf TDI Hybrid this year, but likely not. Diesel Hybrid cars and trucks are the best solution, for now.

The Golf Hybrid TDI (the prototype of which was displayed at the Geneva motor show) is projected for production 2010/2011. Regarding the locomotives, trains have had regenerative braking for years. Many TGVs for example load up their motors for anti-torque and put the power produced straight back in the overhead line to be consumed by other trains. The trouble with diesel locos and hybrids is the power generated has to be stored on board the vehicle. In the case of the hybrid the battery capacity is a tad over 1 kW/h with a useful cycle of about 750 W/h which amounts to just 2.7 fluid ounces of gasoline. If the battery is full (or near full) when braking force is applied nothing (or very little) will be saved.

 

[pugman]

I will mirror what VeeDubTDI stated at the beginning of this discussion; “I'd love to see diesel hybrids get introduced into our market.” But only if they are Diesel Hybrids!

 

[earlthepearl]

Clearly, the cost benefit depends greatly on the driving mix (city/highway). The more stop and go, the hybrid wins. If you're doing 75%+ on the highway, diesels will rule, even considering the price difference in fuels. Not to mention the durability of diesel engines over gassers. Add to that the complexities of the hybrid systems and the cost to maintain them, we highway burners will be better off burning oil.

00 NB TDI, 314,000 mi.
05 Passat TDI, 140,000 mi.
02 Eurovan Premium Gasser, 52,000 mi
67 Beetle Resto-custom project
86 Toyota PU, 282,000 mi. (cuz a man's gotta have a truck)

 

[Rod Bearing]

Actually, the Civic hybrids do get about the advertised average MPG.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/m...-civiccvt.html

I bought mine on Jan 18 2004 and have a lifetime mileage of just over 60MPG. I drive about 50 miles to work, almost exclusive freeway and take moderate fuel saving techniques. I drive about the speed limit, avoid heavy acceleration, use momentum etc. Tires lasted about 88,000 miles and at 110,000 miles have plenty of brake pads left. No additional or extraordinary maintenance.

The car starts/runs/drives as if off the lot and have been very satisfied with it.

I bought mine at MSRP (About $1,000 over a comparable EX) and are sold almost maxed out with accessories and have extras not available on other Civics such as noise deadening frames (Filled with noise absorbers, panel insulaton etc) and other perks. Civic's are fitted with double wishbone rear suspensions, while many other vehicles the same size are fitted with just a trailing bar.

A regular Civic gets around 32MPG, with the highest hypermiling figure I've seen is in the low 40's. That's pretty good, but I've had mine above 70MPG. (See my signiture)
While I don't try for 70MPG tanks anymore, I still average better than 60 rather easily.
Both the Jetta TDI and Civic hybrid are approx 11sec 0-60.

What I'm saying here is both vehicles make great cars, get great fuel mileage and superior alternatives to a regular gasser. If someone were to post a number of stereotypical falsehoods regarding diesel autos, I'd be (and am) just as quick to defend them.

-Steve

Where's Steve?

I've been looking all over the internets and none of them have produced a single story of a Civic doing what he claims his does. (Not saying there are no stories, I just haven't found another Civic Hybrid owner posting what Steves is doing) I've spent hours perusing the hybrid sites, blogs, and the best Civic hybrid I can find is one that a guy says he gets a 46 mpg (all hiway in Kansas) average in.