Help - what's that ticking sound?!

[oilhammer]

Heh, well now I think it looks like a boat anchor. I was under the impression the engine ran OK, you just had an upper end ticking sound. Much worse than that it appears. Time for a different engine. That one's tooefed.

 

[thechoochlyman]

Well that's the thing, it DID run ok. Other than the ticking sound nothing seemed out of the ordinary at all.

Oh, come on... I really think a new engine is a little overkill, don't you? lol Put in a new piston and send it. I've got another engine for later if I need it. All the bearings look good and nothing's loose.

 

[Windex]

Best check would be with a bore gauge.

I also think you might have just found your ticking noise.

 

[Windex]

To clarify, bore gauge to check for taper, out of round, lip wear etc. If that checks out, hone the bore and see how well the scoring comes out.
I would then gauge the bore again in the worn area.
I would use the flat stone type of hone... Not a fan of the dingle ball variety.

 

[thechoochlyman]

Cylinder 1 felt a little gritty or something when I rocked the piston back and forth on the rod. It wasn't loose, but I pulled out the wrist pin and the bushing is cracked in at least two places.

EDIT: I think the photo I took shows the slit in the side of the bushing, but there are actual cracks in it as well.



My parts list now includes 8 connecting rod cap bolts, an oil pan gasket, a single set of piston rings, connecting rod bearings, a wrist pin bushing, and a piston. I can't find a piston new anywhere, so I'm going to try to source that used from a member here. FCP Euro and ID Parts has everything else.

 

[ToddA1]

Slippin’ down that slope….

-Todd

 

[Steve Addy]

Cylinder 1 felt a little gritty or something when I rocked the piston back and forth on the rod. It wasn't loose, but I pulled out the wrist pin and the bushing is cracked in at least two places.

EDIT: I think the photo I took shows the slit in the side of the bushing, but there are actual cracks in it as well.

View attachment 127217

My parts list now includes 8 connecting rod cap bolts, an oil pan gasket, a single set of piston rings, connecting rod bearings, a wrist pin bushing, and a piston. I can't find a piston new anywhere, so I'm going to try to source that used from a member here. FCP Euro and ID Parts has everything else.

I just pulled apart a junk AHU (dropped a valve on #4) in hopes of sending the pistons / rods (that were good) on to a buddy in MO who had a runaway ALH and bent / melted some stuff. Ended up all the pistons were knackered (#4 the worst) but even the other 3 had some melting on them. I knew the engine was junk but I wanted the spare bits from it so I bought it...core IP, brackets, alternator etc are all worth having spares for.

At any rate the 1-3 rods were all I could send on due to damage, which will help him out some but he also needs a couple new pistons...or at least one new one for #2 and they appear to be in short supply.

Here's the #4 piston...lol, be glad you don't have anything like this!

And further, about a week ago I pulled a used turbo and oil pan from a BRM not far from where I live and contemplated buying the balance of the engine today...but, I decided it worth it to open it up before committing to it...since it had already been robbed of 3 or the 4 injectors and other misc crap. Here's what I found, and I'm glad I didn't go for this one...another valve collision!!

Steve

 

[thechoochlyman]

‍ Good Lord, man - and that was running before it dropped a valve?

I think I'll be fine...

 

[Steve Addy]

‍ Good Lord, man - and that was running before it dropped a valve?

I think I'll be fine...

There was no history about either engine before they crapped out, and I didn't know either owner personally so I can't attest to how they were treated etc, just that I needed the transmission from the 06 BRM and contemplated buying the balance of the engine, but didn't get it because I'd be trading a bad AHU as core for a bad BRM (that literally is also a core) that had already had it's injection system pilfered by someone else.

And no, your problem isn't as bad, but you're still in the same unfortunate position of not being able to find pistons.....

Steve

 

[thechoochlyman]

Can't believe all the doompilling I got, I just honed it out for all of 10 minutes and it's looking pretty darn good.

Left side is after just a couple strokes, right side is "done."

There's some extra lines at the bottom past the end of the stroke, and just a couple of lines I can barely feel at the very top. But that's probably just a normal Tuesday morning at the Ford plant, so I'm not too concerned. (I'm a Dodge guy, gotta pick on the Fords. lol)

 

[thechoochlyman]

Upon further examination I wasn't too satisfied that I had an actual cross hatch pattern going on, so I ran it through a few more times with a slower speed and faster motion.

 

[burpod]

much better!

 

[Windex]

Make sure you clean out those bores and crank until they're spotless... Then clean them again. Honing grit is murder if not completely removed from an engine.

 

[thechoochlyman]

Make sure you clean out those bores and crank until they're spotless... Then clean them again. Honing grit is murder if not completely removed from an engine.

For sure, I had the bottom of the cylinder completely plugged up with all the rags I could stuff in it, and I'm going to clean everything out extra well before putting everything back together.

 

[Windex]

Good stuff. Do you have access to a bore gauge?

 

[thechoochlyman]

Good stuff. Do you have access to a bore gauge?

I have telescopic gages as well as a 2-12" bore micrometer. We might have an actual bore gauge at the machine shop, but I'll have to zero it on one of the other cylinders or make my own calibration ring.

It would probably be easiest to use my telescopic gages and measure with an OD mic. I trust those down to .0001" in injection molds all the time.

 

[Windex]

Good. So you have the tools to mic the bore for taper, bell mouth, egg shape etc. I'd be curious to know how well that bore with the scoring turned out after the hone.

 

[ToddA1]

I'd be curious to know how well that bore with the scoring turned out after the hone.

In for results. Obviously, you didn’t use a torque plate, so let’s see if the hype is real…

Trans is still bolted on, so that’ll help cylinder 4, if you’re planning on doing all of them.

-Todd

 

[thechoochlyman]

In for results. Obviously, you didn’t use a torque plate, so let’s see if the hype is real…

Trans is still bolted on, so that’ll help cylinder 4, if you’re planning on doing all of them.

-Todd

Nope, not planning on touching anything but #3. Seems to me that leaving the factory cross hatch present is for the best if possible.

 

[Windex]

If you're re ringing any of the other cylinders, you should hone, otherwise leave the 1 2 and 4 cyls alone

 

[thechoochlyman]

If you're re ringing any of the other cylinders, you should hone, otherwise leave the 1 2 and 4 cyls alone

Nope, leaving the rings in place too. Just bought rings for one piston and honed that one cylinder. I'm going to be using the old connecting rod and bearings too.

 

[burpod]

that seems really strange to me. i couldn't imagine only doing one of them at this point... i feel like that would be a mistake

 

[thechoochlyman]

Just got off the phone with Frank Irving. He's sending my injectors back when the post office reopens on Tuesday. As expected, he said my stock nozzles were over the hill. I'm eager to see how his Wuzetem 502s perform.

 

[thechoochlyman]

I haven't had the time to check my cylinder wall diameter, but I came across this handy chart in my manual.



I have the standard, 79.47. Because I'm having so much trouble locating a used piston I went looking for new, and AutohausAZ has a new Nural piston spec'd at 79.50mm. Not sure why it's .001" larger than stock, but if I need a .002" clearance in the cylinder I'm sure it would be closer to what I need.

Is Nural a good brand to go with? Because you can get them individually it seems like people must swap them out one at a time as needed anyway, so it should be fine. Should I just replace all four pistons with an upgraded set for a newer TDI? Ugh, so many questions. lol

 

[burpod]

i believe they're probably just listing the bore size, not the actual piston size. quite sure all the standard size pistons should be the same 79.47mm. nural is a good brand. i think the ASV pistons i've bought were nural

 

[thechoochlyman]

Makes sense. I'll just bore mic my cylinder tonight and go from there.

 

[oilhammer]

Not all standard sized pistons are the same size, nor the same manufacturer. As noted in another thread that was inexplicably started on the same topic:

Alcan or Mahle (the suppliers for the 1Z) 79.44mm, 79.46mm, 79.47mm or 79.49mm, cylinder 1 & 2 or cyl 3 & 4.

 

[d24tdi]

I agree with your approach here OP. Given the obvious evidence that this engine was used hard, it doesn't make sense to do more than the bare minimum to fix the observed issues (piston, small end bushing) and put it back together. No reason to go nuts with fresh rings and bearings everywhere but not take the block out for a rebore and fresh pistons and intermediate shaft bearings. I think the only reasonable paths would be a minimal route like you're doing or going all in on an overhaul. Anything in between is diminishing returns.

And yet, you may get quite a bit of life out of it with the quick and dirty approach. I did this same move once with a 1Z that swelled and partially melted the middle two pistons after the PO towed his boat up the local mountain pass on a 110F day foot to the floor with a pair of hot Upsolute chips in the ECU (not sure what some folks expect when they attempt this? I see diesel pickups on the side of the road on the high passes every summer day with hoods up having done something similar LOL). Anyway it had scored the bores pretty bad, worse than yours, and only was running on about 2 and a half cyls. When I got it I didn't feel like putting big effort or money into the motor until I could drive the car and see if it'd be worth it, so I just popped those two pistons out, ran a hone until the vertical scoring was at least not as easy to see, grabbed a couple of lightly mashed pistons I had from an ALH that had snapped the TB years earlier, and dropped them in. Reused their rings and the bearings, and didn't even touch #1 or #4. I think the only new parts that went into that job were a headgasket and pan gasket.

I didn't expect much from that frankenstein hackjob motor, but it fired right off and ran clean immediately, never used a drop of oil, and had no issues whatsoever for the rest of the time I had it till transmission issues took the vehicle down. I'm sure it probably would not have given another 300k, but it would have probably put on 100k without breaking a sweat.

 

[thechoochlyman]

Thanks for the input! I do think it'll be fine for the immediate future. Eventually I probably will tear it down to do a full rebuild and oversize the bores. I feel like these engines are pretty forgiving. Like I said previously, the engine ran just as good as it ever did before I tore it down, aside from the obvious ticking noise.

 

[Steve Addy]

You could always try getting a good used piston from Frank06....

Steve