Help - what's that ticking sound?!

[thechoochlyman]

i've seen that before, but not quite as much. from what i understand, most of the load is on the top part of the bearing, if that's correct, i would guess those wouldn't cause much harm?

I wouldn't think so. The caps all look practically brand new.

 

[thechoochlyman]

Cam out... Again. Manifolds off. Almost ready to pull the head.

 

[thechoochlyman]

Head is now off. Doesn't seem to be anything too fishy happening here, but here's a few photos.

All cylinders have some amount of cross hatch remaining. Cylinder 2 looks a little worn, but not severely.



Cylinder 1







This piston has a tiny dent on the front. None of them have any signs of cracking.





The head looks great. Just going off my dial Caliper all the valves seem to have the same amount of protrusion. Before I send the head off to anybody I want to remove the valves to inspect them and the guides for wear.

 

[thechoochlyman]

Knocked all the valve keepers out with a big socket and deadblow. None of the valves feel particularly tight, but the cylinder 2 exhaust valve is HELLA wobbly. And that's definitely right in the area where it sounded loudest with my stethoscope, so I feel very confident that's the issue. I'm getting ready to pull the injectors and glow plugs so I can give Frank a call tomorrow.

loose valves

youtube.com

 

[ToddA1]

Sucks it wasn’t something easy. Aren’t you a machinist…. why not do it yourself? Pushing in new guides and reaming them should be within your capability.

-Todd

 

[thechoochlyman]

Sucks it wasn’t something easy. Aren’t you a machinist…. why not do it yourself? Pushing in new guides and reaming them should be within your capability.

-Todd

I'm considering it. We don't have a lot of the specialized equipment and machine tools necessary for engine work, but just valves and guides shouldn't be too difficult. I just figured it would be super easy to hand it over to an experienced one-stop shop and get it back knowing all is well.

 

[ToddA1]

I’d bet you could replace all guides, valves and seals for around $300. I’d probably just lap the valves and seats.

To clean the oil galleys, the plugs would be under $10. I suppose price it out and come to your own decision.

-Todd

 

[thechoochlyman]

I've been looking at the parts this morning and mulling over this job.

Just out of curiosity, what are the typical components that get replaced during a head reman such as this? Can I just replace the guides and leave the original valves if they're not bent or worn? Is there any reason to change valve springs if there are no problems? It appears as though they are rather pricey anyway. What about valve keepers? I'd like to replace those as well for peace of mind, but am having trouble sourcing them.

Looks like ID Parts has me priced around $235 for a head gasket kit with bolts, valve stems, valves, and guides.

 

[garciapiano]

I've got a ticking noise too, on a fresh rebuild. Back to the drawing board....

 

[thechoochlyman]

I've got a ticking noise too, on a fresh rebuild. Back to the drawing board....

Damn! I've been reading your posts about the rebuild too.

 

[burpod]

i still never got around to figuring out the ticking in my mk3 as well. still just sitting in the driveway. not enough time, putzing with my rabbit and tuning too much :/

 

[thechoochlyman]

i still never got around to figuring out the ticking in my mk3 as well. still just sitting in the driveway. not enough time, putzing with my rabbit and tuning too much :/

Geez, seems like a bug going around the 1Z world...

I did some more Googling for valve keepers and actually got led back to ID Parts. The description says they'll work on anything up to 06, but it was hidden from my search using my car's year and engine. I contacted them to let them know there's probably a glitch on the site.

 

[thechoochlyman]

I think I previously mentioned that my TB was due in about 5,000 miles, but because I've already got the coolant drained out there's no way I'm tearing it apart again in two months for a redo. lol Ordered all the timing belt components I need, along with a water pump, thermostat, and valve spring compressor. Guess I'm just gonna tackle the head myself, I don't think it'll be much of a project. Gonna wait and verify the number of holes in my head gasket tonight before I place my order with ID Parts.

 

[garciapiano]

Looks like burned exhaust valve then? I pulled a pretty long hill yesterday, and I've got what sounds like a loose lifter or valve, a very similar "clack" sound with every rotation of the cam. It's not nearly as loud as yours. At least that's what I'm hoping. I'll post a separate thread for my car...

The exhaust valve guides were all replaced with the head rebuild, however, I have a feeling the head was getting inadequate oil flow due to worn lifter bores that were not remedied with the rebuild... And who knows what kind of guides the shop used for the rebuild.

 

[ToddA1]

Just out of curiosity, what are the typical components that get replaced during a head reman such as this?

I’d replace the exhaust valves, just because of the mileage and they’re getting beaten with heat. The intake valves could possibly be cleaned and reused, but at 300k, I’d just replace them. I’ve cleaned and reused many valves and just lapped them. Everything runs…

Keepers, I’m not sure if they go bad. The spring should keep them seated in the upper retainer, so I’d think unless there’s slop, they’re fine. I’ve never bought a new keeper.

I’ve had people tell me so many times that they reuse head bolts, without issue. I did a head gasket swap a few months back on a gas VW. I bought new bolts and compared them to the old bolts. The old bolts were roughly 1.15mm longer. Someone who’s an automotive engineer said after the bolt stretched 8% would be when it lost its clamping force. This assumes all bolts were exactly the same length prior to being torqued and angled….

As cheap as the stem seals are, I replace. They got replaced on the gas VW, just because the head came off. There was less than 5k on them. Timing belt, tensioner and cam seal got swapped, too. Too easy not to do it now.…

I’ve also heard people with leaking head gaskets doing an additional 1/4 turn and it works for them.… additional stretching without snapping. Which brings the point of people reusing the head gaskets, lol.

Springs could be tested to see if they’re still good. How much is a set of springs? I used to buy HD springs and they were around $80.

-Todd

 

[ToddA1]

They sell stem seal pliers, but I made a set.… been using them for years. In this case, the tooth brush was the protective fulcrum. The screwdriver was the lever that pops them out.





11mm deep socket is perfect for stem seal installation




I own a valve spring compressor set, but don’t use it. The press frees both hands. The main part is a black pipe nipple, with some windows cut out. The bottom is wrapped in electrical tape, so there’s no chance of metal to metal contact.



You‘ll be fine…

-Todd

 

[thechoochlyman]

Looks like burned exhaust valve then? I pulled a pretty long hill yesterday, and I've got what sounds like a loose lifter or valve, a very similar "clack" sound with every rotation of the cam. It's not nearly as loud as yours. At least that's what I'm hoping. I'll post a separate thread for my car...

The exhaust valve guides were all replaced with the head rebuild, however, I have a feeling the head was getting inadequate oil flow due to worn lifter bores that were not remedied with the rebuild... And who knows what kind of guides the shop used for the rebuild.

I don't think the exhaust valve is burned, it's just the guide that's extremely loose. And from the number of posts I've read, around 200k seems about all you can expect from the OEM valve guides before they start getting out of spec. (assuming you're not using Frank's upgraded valve guides, which unfortunately I am not.) Thankfully all my lifter bores feel nice and snug, so that's one thing I can have peace of mind about for now. I've been debating on whether I should just drop the pan and do a full re-ring and bore hone, but I think I'll let it slide this time. Maybe if and when I get closer to 400 or 500k miles it'll be time to pull the engine completely and replace all the main bearings too.

Speaking of Frank, I gave him a call yesterday and we talked for a good hour and a half about TDIs, machining, and lots of cool stuff. Awesome guy. Even though I'm opting to rebuild my head myself this time, I will be sending him my injectors for PP520 mounting and balancing. He's actually less expensive than Kerma and does a MUCH more thorough job of properly testing and balancing the injectors. I'm really glad I called him because he's just a wealth of knowledge. I didn't realize how many different TDI components he has to offer than just head servicing. If I'm in the market for any parts or upgrades in the future I'll be calling him first to get his opinions.

Todd, thanks again for sharing your knowledge! I really appreciate all the input you've given not just here but everywhere else on the forum. I didn't realize the keepers would be such a pain to remove, guess I'll have to make myself some pliers. lol I ordered a full set of exhaust and intake valves, I'll just take care of them all at once and call it good. I've been shopping for springs a bit but everywhere I look they seem to be $30-$40 each.

 

[thechoochlyman]

What does everyone prefer when it comes to cleaning the block surface? I'm mainly concerned with not getting gunk down in the oil channels and potentially clogging something up. Doesn't seem very efficient or worthwhile to try plugging all the holes with a piece of cloth or something, especially when you may potentially lose it in there.

 

[garciapiano]

I went at my block surface with everything in the book, scotch brite pads, etc and it never got clean enough. When I took it to my rebuilder, they told me it was pitted enough that they thought a slight deck would be the safest bet, which is the route I went. That's how the rabbit hole goes... However, I have had no head gasket issues.

I've seen people use 200 grit sandpaper affixed to a large piece of glass or metal, just to get it clean, which is ghetto but appears to work... plug up the coolant & oil holes with some lint-free cloth and vacuum it out when you're done. Not my preferred method but it's what I'd do if I was in a pinch.

 

[thechoochlyman]

I'm not certain how the oil passages in the block are arranged, but I'm wondering if I can't disconnect the oil pump and spray out the passages with brake clean followed by clean oil after I'm done.

 

[garciapiano]

I used compressed air and WD-40/acetone to clean everything out. I’ll say that the “vent” for most of the oil passages is at the filter housing, which would need to be removed to get it all out. You’ll never get it perfect… even my hot tanked block still had some crud in it.

 

[Steve Addy]

When I had cylinder head cleaned and reworked at 242k miles the shop said exhaust guides needed replaced, so I would assume the same in your case. They said intake guides were fine. I use that mileage now (aprox 250k) as a guide for head work.

The donor engine (to the B3V) had good cross-hatching on cylinder walls visible, was very happy about that.

Local machine shop here checked and cut head, did valve job and replaced guides (exh) and all stem seals it was around $200 back in 2015...today probably would be a third more I'd guess....

I think it's worth keeping a couple sets (of 4) exhaust valve guides on hand just in case.

Steve

 

[thechoochlyman]

When I had cylinder head cleaned and reworked at 242k miles the shop said exhaust guides needed replaced, so I would assume the same in your case. They said intake guides were fine. I use that mileage now (aprox 250k) as a guide for head work.

The donor engine (to the B3V) had good cross-hatching on cylinder walls visible, was very happy about that.

Local machine shop here checked and cut head, did valve job and replaced guides (exh) and all stem seals it was around $200 back in 2015...today probably would be a third more I'd guess....

I think it's worth keeping a couple sets (of 4) exhaust valve guides on hand just in case.

Steve

They're all pretty darn loose in mine. It's that cylinder 2 exhaust guide that really went wonky, but they all have lateral play to some degree.

 

[oilhammer]

My 1Z's tick was due to worn lifter bores, not allowing the lifters to stay pumped up. A new head or bored/sleeved bores is the only fix. I've since seen this a few times. Never on an ALH, oddly enough, always a 1Z/AHU.

 

[ToddA1]

I've been shopping for springs a bit but everywhere I look they seem to be $30-$40 each.

I’m surprised they’re that expensive. I’m sure the test spec is in the Bentley. I’d probably get them tested, if you can’t find them cheaper.

HD looks to be available….although you’d lose a tiny bit of power.

1Z/AHU/ALH HD Dual Valvesprings

HD dual valve spring kit for VE pump TDI's. Tested to 60psi of boost/emp and 6000rpm with no valve float.

whitbreadperformance.com

-Todd

 

[Steve Addy]

My 1Z's tick was due to worn lifter bores, not allowing the lifters to stay pumped up. A new head or bored/sleeved bores is the only fix. I've since seen this a few times. Never on an ALH, oddly enough, always a 1Z/AHU.

Block redesign for ALH remedy this you think?

What about cylinder head exhaust valve guide wear on ALH? Any history with those? I know the part number for the guide shows up as working for AHU and ALH even though VW doesn't list it that way.

Steve

 

[oilhammer]

Improved oil flow to the cylinder head was one of the new product technical information on the new engines for 1998 I remember from the NB training, yes. Not sure if that was to address this particular issue or not, as I don't think VAG was benchmarking a lot of 300k+ mile early type engines at the time of design, but who knows maybe they were?

I think exhaust valve guide wear is the very first thing that wears on any of the OHC VAG engines, but that doesn't necessarily mean it affects anything. I mean, every ALH head I've ever sent to our machine shop gets new exhaust guides almost no matter what it is there for or how many miles it has covered.

 

[ToddA1]

Improved oil flow to the cylinder head was one of the new product technical information on the new engines for 1998

I’m curious how they improved it. From what I’m used to, oil went up the 3rd head bolt, from right, on the filter mount side of the engine. Was this changed?

I do recall pics of some type of groove that connected these holes, if that’s what you mean. I’ve seen some people replicate this groove on earlier engines, although I’m not sure when it started… I don’t remember seeing it on 1Z.

-Todd

 

[oilhammer]

Well, one obvious and giant difference is there is no I-shaft in the block to have to keep lubricated, so that alone in theory would give them more oil potential to play with, but the entire bottom end is different. The oil passages in the block to the oil filter/cooler housing are substantially larger, and I would not doubt if you took the oil pumps apart, you'd find the later engines have more potential there than even the early engines' later versions (of which all TDIs already had) that came out originally to coincide with the hydraulic lifters that were added in.

This is kind of one of those things like comparing the "old" original Chevrolet small block V8s (and V6s) to the later style engines. The 2000 5.3L V8 is a VAST improvement over the 5.7L it replaced. No contest. And the main reason is, GM wasn't trying to reinvent the wheel. They literally had decades of experience building those old V8s. Many different sizes, but ultimately ended up and stayed with 5.0L and 5.7L engines, and remained so for a good long while (there was a short-lived 4.3L V8 used in some B-body cars that was the exception, but still same basic design). So when a new, clean slate engine was decided upon, but unlike Ford* decided to stick with a simple iron-block 90 degree pushrod 2 valve port injected engine, they could draw upon all those decades and figure out what was good and what was not, and what was needed and what was not. So, just like VAG did with these second generation I4s, useless things like distributor drives or external crank sensors were ditched because they knew that they'd not need it. Makes for a simpler, cleaner, and more refined engine.

*Ford may have finally seen the folly of their ways, because the new 'Godzilla' gasoline V8, a 7.3L beast, is back to... you guessed it... a simple iron-block 90 degree pushrod 2 valve port injected engine, replacing (and easily besting the performance of) the 6.8L 3 valve OHC V10, that debuted in 2 valve form way back in 1997, based on the 5.4L V8, which was itself a stretched 4.6L V8, which dated even further back to the 1991 Lincoln Town Car. So, the all new 7.3L V8 really has more in common with my '97 F250 HD's 7.5L behemoth, which has its roots back somewhere when Volkswagen was only building cars with their engines in the back where they belong. But I have no doubt that the new engine would embarrass my old truck (at least I get to row my own gears still!).

 

[ToddA1]

Yeah, I suppose an entire engine redesign would do that….

-Todd