Help/ideas removing broken glow plug tip from combustion chamber

[zichaj]

3 weeks ago I set out to complete the 5 minute job of changing the glow plug on cyl 3 in my 2004 Passat B5.5 TDI with a BHW 2.0L PD (pumpe-duse) engine. It turns out codes on cyl 3 actually refer to cyl 2. As you can see from the below picture my job very quickly turned into a time consuming and expensive adventure.

I've read all of the glow plug forum and have found that some people have had luck getting broken glow plug tips out of the combustion chamber without removing the head. I unfortunately have not had as much luck and am wondering if anyone has actually done this on a PD engine? The injector hole is only bout 7-7 1/2mm in diameter and the glow plug hole is even smaller.

I pulled the injector and confirmed with a bore scope that won't fit all the way into the cylinder that the piece is indeed sitting on the piston head. I spend many hours yesterday with drinking straw duct taped to a vacuum trying to remove the broken tip to no avail.

The dealer wants $1200 to $1800 to remove the head and get the piece out.

I actually don't trust the dealer (although I think the lead mechanic may knows his stuff) and the local technician forum doesn't show any reputable techs in or around Peoria, IL where I live. I'm searching for any ideas or known reputable shops before I ship this thing to the dealership on a flatbed. I was thinking about buying the following bore scope. It will fit in the injector hole but I still don't know how to get the piece out even if I can get it down the hole.

I just wish VW had published a letter about this issue. I would have paid to replaced these with the steel tip plugs had I known about the problem. I guess it comes down to warranty money for VW, as in they don't have to pay if they don't admit there is a problem, but it sure sucks for the customers who have this problem. At least I haven't run the engine since this happened.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Antsrcool]

if you slowly rotate the engine by hand so that cylinder is at the top does that help you out at all? Sometimes you can blow compressed air into the glowplug hole and it will shoot out the tip thru the injector hole. Have you tried these options yet?

 

[PDJetta]

Try duct taping a soda straw to a shop vacuum hose and applying suction to the GP hole. If the tip had not fallen into the cylinder, you may get it out. If it has, maybe if you rotate the engine to TDC on that cylinder you could suck it out.

Nate

 

[Havokk]

im not sure what those glow plugs are made of, if they are magnetic at all, a good idea to try is to take take a rod that fits into the gp hole and is made of ferric materials and apply a really strong magnet to it like the kind used in welding. This only works if the glow plug is magnetic. it should be able to attract the gp tip if its magnetic and carefully pull it it out.

steel seizing wire works well as it can be coiled and bent to fit what ever job its needed for but can only exert so much magntic attraction. The thicker the better but make sure its not too short and able to be droped into the cyclinder too because that would just make things worse.

I like the air blowing and vacume straw ideas.


sure beats the bubble gum at the end of a stick trick.

 

[Havokk]

Almost forgot, aside from a big piece of glow plug, there may be a few shards from where it broke off. Keep that in mind when trying to fish out the big piece. If the magnet idea works it could pick up alot of it but as i have never done this before i cant say for certain. This is just the idea i would try to avoid head removal but if you want to be 100% sure, u may have to remove it for inspection to clear out all the debris.

 

[TDICADDGUY]

They are ceramic...hence the breakage issues.

I would get the car jacked up, side shields and harmonic balancer off so you can get a 12 point socket and ratchet on the crank pulley. Rotate clockwise until that cylinder is closer to or at TDC...that may help you get it out.

Good luck.

 

[rackaracka]

They are ceramic...hence the breakage issues.

I would get the car jacked up, side shields and harmonic balancer off so you can get a 12 point socket and ratchet on the crank pulley. Rotate clockwise until that cylinder is closer to or at TDC...that may help you get it out.

Good luck.

I am not so sure they are ceramic. I have a Bosch sku 165143 182109 in my hand and the tip is very magnetic. I think you'll be able to fish it off of the top of the piston with a good / small magnet. If you can get your hands on a "rare earth" magnet (usually used for alarm contacts in windows / doors) and tie it up into a string cradle, you should be able to fish it down the injector hole and collect the debris. A small pickup tool will work, but I don't know if you'll find one small enough to fish down the hole. Good Luck!!!

 

[TDICADDGUY]

Is that Bosch glow plug for your 2002 ALH? They are steel.

PD engines got ceramic glow plugs from the factory. Now they have been changed to steel because of problems with them breaking off. Changing them out for steel glow plugs requires some changes to the ECU via VCDS.

 

[rackaracka]

Is that Bosch glow plug for your 2002 ALH? They are steel.

PD engines got ceramic glow plugs from the factory. Now they have been changed to steel because of problems with them breaking off. Changing them out for steel glow plugs requires some changes to the ECU via VCDS.

Yes, the steel glow plug I referenced is for the ALH.. Sorry for my misleading contribution. Was wondering how the tip broke off anyway - the steel ones are very rugged. Try compressed air and the vacuum straw recommended previously. I wonder if you could fill the cylinder with a liquid that the ceramic material would float on, and then pump out the liquid with air.

 

[zichaj]

Thank for the feedback. The plug is definitely ceramic and is definitely not magnetic nor does it float. I can't get at the crank gear so I've been turning the engine by way of the cam which is easily accessed with the timing belt cover removed. I've confirmed that the broken piece is not in the glow plug port but has indeed fallen into the combustion chamber.

When the cylinder approaches TDC I can feel and hear the piece hit the head. The broken piece is about 3/4" long so the only way to remove it is to grab the end somehow and pull it straight up through the injector hole. A task that could probably be done with a surgical grade scope that is very thin, and can be bent around corners. Unfortunately the local surgical centers don't have any loaner programs that I'm aware of and I don't want to pay the $25K that I'm sure they cost new. On a serious note, I don't want to spend all kinds of money on this and then end up taking it in for the $1500 job of removing the head anyway.

I was thinking of buying one of these for $130. http://www.toolrage.com/prodview.asp?sku=SLI-PV636. It will barely fit down the injector hole but once down there I won't be able to bend it around corners to find the piece. I was thinking about tieing a string to the end of the scope and then sucking string out of the glow plug hole. Then when I put the bore scope down the injector hole I can pull the string to bend the scope allowing me to see at angles. I'm still confident I could see the piece easily but getting it out is another story.

 

[MayorDJQ]

What part of IL are you in? There may be someone nearby that can assist somehow, or a guru.

Are you mechanically inclined enough to pull the head yourself?

 

[zichaj]

I'm in Peoria, IL. I've never pulled the head off an engine but do think I could do it. I don't have a D&A manual or anything that specifies torque values (where can I get this other than dealer access to VW hub?) and I really don't have a complete enough set of tools to do the job correctly. If there was someone knowledgeable in the area that I could pay to work side by side with I could do the job. At this point I just really need to get the car back in working order.

 

[Havokk]

So much for the magnet idea...hmmm

If the straw idea wont work, have you tried using the rubber or plastic air line, like the ones used on fish tank aeration units. I doubt the suction would be enough but maybe it will, if not you could always us the rubber or plastic air line to push the glowplug around to get it into some sort of orentation that would make it easyier to get out. I dont know how well u can see the GP from the injector hole or even the gp hole for that matter.

It needs to come out in the same orentation it went in ( yeah i know..DUH ). If you could get the tip of the gp to point in the direction facing the previously mention plastic or rubber air hose and the other end of the GP is braced against the side of the cyclinder. You could possibly shove the line over it having the gp tip push into the air line makeing a snugg fit, and pull out slowly.

Its an extreme long shot and relies on the orentation of the peice of the gp being ideal for the air tube being slide into the hole catch the tip of the gp and force the gp tip up into the tube (mate). Combine with a vacum suction might help guide the gp tip into the air line.

I could draw a picture of my nutty idea and post it.

 

[PDJetta]

I think the only viable options are either pulling the head, or removing the fuel injector and attempting to suck the piece out the injector hole. The GP chanel has almost no extra room over the width of the GP, so trying to get it out of that is impossible, I think.

Another far-fetched option may be going in through an intake or exhaust port with the piston near TDC with the valve open. You ideally should have a borascope and some type of grabber tool.

But that piece has to come out and you need to be sure you get all of it.

--Nate

 

[FlyTDI Guy]

You might try and find one of these...

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200382240_200382240

I have one that would probably fit down the GP hole. It would definitely grab it but... the cylinder would have to be down a bit and it would be dumb luck to grab it by the nose. Possibly worth a try anyways.

 

[MonsterTDI09]

Try hook piece tubing that stiff and flex able to a shop vac and pull i through injectour opening.

 

[Havokk]

that flex tool pick up looks realy thick but could do the trick. i have a similar one in my shop but the end where the grab arms go in is about 1/4 inch and wouldnt work on this, this one is hopefully a better quality and thinner at the point where the grabber arms retract into the tool body.

 

[Havokk]

my buddy joe mig likes the grabber idea and reccomends trying this

its a pickle or olive grabber. duno it you can get it to grab well enough.

 

[zichaj]

I took the car to the dealer on Thursday.....I don't like to admit defeat but it's been sitting in the garage for 3 weeks now. I'll let you all know the outcome and cost when I get it back hopefully in perfect shape next week. Thanks for the help.

 

[MayorDJQ]

Dealer? Ouch.

There are no gurus or even "foreign" specialists in your area?

 

[Havokk]

might be better off pushing it off a cliff. Look at it this way, you gave it a good shot. Can't win every time

 

[CoolAirVw]

So should regular maintanance include removing the GP's, cleaning off the carbon, and reinstalling to prevent this? Maybe at oil change interval?

 

[FlyTDI Guy]

So should regular maintenance include removing the GP's, cleaning off the carbon, and reinstalling to prevent this? Maybe at oil change interval?

In the OP's case, the glowplug failed because it was ceramic and a known problem in the PD series motors. Personally, I use just a dab of high temp never-seize on the threads.

 

[kooyajerms]

well i guess i missed this one before the dealership got involved.

the answer
or the whole thread

I went through a lot of tips and ideas from people, the vacuum was the right answer throughout the perdicament.

You've gotta be persistent. I probably put a good couple hours just fishing fishing fishing. If you NEED your car, then you NEED your car. I had some hours to try. And multiple stops to harbour freight. Good luck with the dealership.

 

[zichaj]

Dealer? Ouch.

There are no gurus or even "foreign" specialists in your area?

You guys tried to warn me. I haven't forgotten to update everyone on the outcome of my adventure, my adventure is still not over. I am in the middle of the biggest dealer nightmare of my life. I had the car towed in July 9th and still do not have it back! It will be one month this weekend. I'll give more details later but they tried to give the car back to me finally on Monday with the injector just sitting in the hole. I drove it an could hear there was something wrong. They told me twice in person that the angle and depth of the injector I had removed had been set.

1. Is it possible to do this without seating the injector?

2. Also I saw on one of my numerous trips to the shop that both the front and back rocker lever shafts were off. I had the front one off obviously to pull the number two injector but would there have been a reason to pull the back one?

3. They put both rocker shafts back on with the original stretch bolts or at least I'm assuming since there are no bolts listed on the job invoice. What can happen if the original bolts are used?

4. Can running the engine with an injector loose cause injector tip, injector body, or rocker arm damage? It was in the hole with the tensioning block bolt finger tight.

Oh and one last thing. VW send me a recall letter last week for the glow plug issue!! (Emissions Service Action 28E6/R8) I can only imagine the problems I'm going to have getting them to take $326 off the bill for the new steel plugs and 2 hrs labor.

I'm trying my best to keep my cool but this is just getting out of hand.

 

[13Zulu]

So, with some of the great ideas on this forum and some other research, I've been trying to dream up & engineer a way to get this broken glow plug tip out of my #8 Cylinder without pulling the head off. I can literally see nothing of what i am going to be doing bsides with a dental mirror and M-Spector do to the location. I will be doing most of this totally by feel. I will be using a Milwaulkee M-Spector Mini camera to assist, but it cannot be in there at the same time due to not enough space to work the way it is.

So, I still have some of the other old glow plugs laying around and did some experimenting. First, I thought "may bee the inside wire is magnetic beings how the outer appears to be ceramic"? Turns out it Sure is!!! Best News of the day yet. So here is my plan, I'm going to try and tackle in the next few days. So I did a little more research and here the plan.

1. The 1/2" neodiynium magnet will pick up an entire 1" broken glow plug tip from about 1.25" away.

2. I'm going to try and bring the piston to Not quite TDC to close in on the subject area.

3. I will be using compressed air on a 1/4" copper tube for access through the glow plug port to "stir" the broken piece around if needed. If that does not work, I will have to go through the injector port at intervals with the air.

4. Going through the injector port which appears to be slightly larger than 5/8" the diameter of the copper pipe ("thank god"), I have a 1/2" X 2" neodiynium magnet inserted into a piece of 5/8" copper pipe with the ends of the pipe squeezed so that the magnet cannot come out. The OD of the 1/2" copper pipe is 5/8" so it should barely fit in there.

5. The copper pipe with the magnet will then be inserted into the injector port and held with a pair of long needle nose vise grips assuring that it does not fall into the chamber. That would be an even worse disaster.

6. I am then going to turn on the compressed air in intervals to in essence stir the broken glow plug piece around inside of the combustion chamber in hopes to have it come within the 1.25" allowing it to be attached to the magnet and retrived.

7. If it attaches to the magnet which has a pretty good grip, I am positive that it will come out just fine.

Wish Me Luck Guys!!! I'll let you all know how it turns out. I wish I could figure out how to add my images on here for the next poor soul!

 

[13Zulu]

Well I tackled it to day and IT WORKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The whole piece was intact and stuck onto the magnet! The 5/8 copper pipe just fit into the injector port. I stuffed it in about 2" and hit the air full blast into the glow plug hole and and then pulled the copper pipe with the magnet in it out slowly, I could feel something dragging so I kept slowly retrieving it, the whole thing was out in like 5 minutes total and I had it in my hand. Whewwwwwww! I really hope that this will help someone in the future with the same issue I had.

Broken glow plug retrieved from inside the cylinder head

Broken glow plug retrieved from inside the cylinder head

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[13Zulu]

Broken Glow Plug Retrieval

forums.tdiclub.com

Photos of the process.