Help/ideas removing broken glow plug tip from combustion chamber

zichaj

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Location
Illinois
TDI
2004 Passat GLS Sedan
3 weeks ago I set out to complete the 5 minute job of changing the glow plug on cyl 3 in my 2004 Passat B5.5 TDI with a BHW 2.0L PD (pumpe-duse) engine. It turns out codes on cyl 3 actually refer to cyl 2. As you can see from the below picture my job very quickly turned into a time consuming and expensive adventure.



I've read all of the glow plug forum and have found that some people have had luck getting broken glow plug tips out of the combustion chamber without removing the head. I unfortunately have not had as much luck and am wondering if anyone has actually done this on a PD engine? The injector hole is only bout 7-7 1/2mm in diameter and the glow plug hole is even smaller.

I pulled the injector and confirmed with a bore scope that won't fit all the way into the cylinder that the piece is indeed sitting on the piston head. I spend many hours yesterday with drinking straw duct taped to a vacuum trying to remove the broken tip to no avail.

The dealer wants $1200 to $1800 to remove the head and get the piece out.

I actually don't trust the dealer (although I think the lead mechanic may knows his stuff) and the local technician forum doesn't show any reputable techs in or around Peoria, IL where I live. I'm searching for any ideas or known reputable shops before I ship this thing to the dealership on a flatbed. I was thinking about buying the following bore scope. It will fit in the injector hole but I still don't know how to get the piece out even if I can get it down the hole.

I just wish VW had published a letter about this issue. I would have paid to replaced these with the steel tip plugs had I known about the problem. I guess it comes down to warranty money for VW, as in they don't have to pay if they don't admit there is a problem, but it sure sucks for the customers who have this problem. At least I haven't run the engine since this happened.

Thanks for the help!
 
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Antsrcool

Vendor
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Location
MA Springfield
TDI
2010 Cup Edition
if you slowly rotate the engine by hand so that cylinder is at the top does that help you out at all? Sometimes you can blow compressed air into the glowplug hole and it will shoot out the tip thru the injector hole. Have you tried these options yet?
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
Try duct taping a soda straw to a shop vacuum hose and applying suction to the GP hole. If the tip had not fallen into the cylinder, you may get it out. If it has, maybe if you rotate the engine to TDC on that cylinder you could suck it out.

Nate
 

Havokk

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
1998 Jetta
im not sure what those glow plugs are made of, if they are magnetic at all, a good idea to try is to take take a rod that fits into the gp hole and is made of ferric materials and apply a really strong magnet to it like the kind used in welding. This only works if the glow plug is magnetic. it should be able to attract the gp tip if its magnetic and carefully pull it it out.

steel seizing wire works well as it can be coiled and bent to fit what ever job its needed for but can only exert so much magntic attraction. The thicker the better but make sure its not too short and able to be droped into the cyclinder too because that would just make things worse.

I like the air blowing and vacume straw ideas.


sure beats the bubble gum at the end of a stick trick.
 
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Havokk

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
1998 Jetta
Almost forgot, aside from a big piece of glow plug, there may be a few shards from where it broke off. Keep that in mind when trying to fish out the big piece. If the magnet idea works it could pick up alot of it but as i have never done this before i cant say for certain. This is just the idea i would try to avoid head removal but if you want to be 100% sure, u may have to remove it for inspection to clear out all the debris.
 

TDICADDGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Location
Blaine, MN
TDI
2000 New Beetle GLS
They are ceramic...hence the breakage issues.

I would get the car jacked up, side shields and harmonic balancer off so you can get a 12 point socket and ratchet on the crank pulley. Rotate clockwise until that cylinder is closer to or at TDC...that may help you get it out.

Good luck.
 

rackaracka

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2001
Location
Monroe, NJ
TDICADDGUY said:
They are ceramic...hence the breakage issues.

I would get the car jacked up, side shields and harmonic balancer off so you can get a 12 point socket and ratchet on the crank pulley. Rotate clockwise until that cylinder is closer to or at TDC...that may help you get it out.

Good luck.
I am not so sure they are ceramic. I have a Bosch sku 165143 182109 in my hand and the tip is very magnetic. I think you'll be able to fish it off of the top of the piston with a good / small magnet. If you can get your hands on a "rare earth" magnet (usually used for alarm contacts in windows / doors) and tie it up into a string cradle, you should be able to fish it down the injector hole and collect the debris. A small pickup tool will work, but I don't know if you'll find one small enough to fish down the hole. Good Luck!!!
 

TDICADDGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Location
Blaine, MN
TDI
2000 New Beetle GLS
Is that Bosch glow plug for your 2002 ALH? They are steel.

PD engines got ceramic glow plugs from the factory. Now they have been changed to steel because of problems with them breaking off. Changing them out for steel glow plugs requires some changes to the ECU via VCDS.
 

rackaracka

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2001
Location
Monroe, NJ
TDICADDGUY said:
Is that Bosch glow plug for your 2002 ALH? They are steel.

PD engines got ceramic glow plugs from the factory. Now they have been changed to steel because of problems with them breaking off. Changing them out for steel glow plugs requires some changes to the ECU via VCDS.
Yes, the steel glow plug I referenced is for the ALH.. Sorry for my misleading contribution. Was wondering how the tip broke off anyway - the steel ones are very rugged. Try compressed air and the vacuum straw recommended previously. I wonder if you could fill the cylinder with a liquid that the ceramic material would float on, and then pump out the liquid with air.
 

zichaj

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Location
Illinois
TDI
2004 Passat GLS Sedan
Thank for the feedback. The plug is definitely ceramic and is definitely not magnetic nor does it float. I can't get at the crank gear so I've been turning the engine by way of the cam which is easily accessed with the timing belt cover removed. I've confirmed that the broken piece is not in the glow plug port but has indeed fallen into the combustion chamber.

When the cylinder approaches TDC I can feel and hear the piece hit the head. The broken piece is about 3/4" long so the only way to remove it is to grab the end somehow and pull it straight up through the injector hole. A task that could probably be done with a surgical grade scope that is very thin, and can be bent around corners. Unfortunately the local surgical centers don't have any loaner programs that I'm aware of and I don't want to pay the $25K that I'm sure they cost new. On a serious note, I don't want to spend all kinds of money on this and then end up taking it in for the $1500 job of removing the head anyway.

I was thinking of buying one of these for $130. http://www.toolrage.com/prodview.asp?sku=SLI-PV636. It will barely fit down the injector hole but once down there I won't be able to bend it around corners to find the piece. I was thinking about tieing a string to the end of the scope and then sucking string out of the glow plug hole. Then when I put the bore scope down the injector hole I can pull the string to bend the scope allowing me to see at angles. I'm still confident I could see the piece easily but getting it out is another story.
 

MayorDJQ

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Location
Williamstown, Mass
TDI
'10 Golf 2dr 6m, sold.
What part of IL are you in? There may be someone nearby that can assist somehow, or a guru.

Are you mechanically inclined enough to pull the head yourself?
 

zichaj

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Location
Illinois
TDI
2004 Passat GLS Sedan
I'm in Peoria, IL. I've never pulled the head off an engine but do think I could do it. I don't have a D&A manual or anything that specifies torque values (where can I get this other than dealer access to VW hub?) and I really don't have a complete enough set of tools to do the job correctly. If there was someone knowledgeable in the area that I could pay to work side by side with I could do the job. At this point I just really need to get the car back in working order.
 

Havokk

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
1998 Jetta
So much for the magnet idea...hmmm

If the straw idea wont work, have you tried using the rubber or plastic air line, like the ones used on fish tank aeration units. I doubt the suction would be enough but maybe it will, if not you could always us the rubber or plastic air line to push the glowplug around to get it into some sort of orentation that would make it easyier to get out. I dont know how well u can see the GP from the injector hole or even the gp hole for that matter.

It needs to come out in the same orentation it went in ( yeah i know..DUH :) ). If you could get the tip of the gp to point in the direction facing the previously mention plastic or rubber air hose and the other end of the GP is braced against the side of the cyclinder. You could possibly shove the line over it having the gp tip push into the air line makeing a snugg fit, and pull out slowly.

Its an extreme long shot and relies on the orentation of the peice of the gp being ideal for the air tube being slide into the hole catch the tip of the gp and force the gp tip up into the tube (mate). Combine with a vacum suction might help guide the gp tip into the air line.

I could draw a picture of my nutty idea and post it.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
I think the only viable options are either pulling the head, or removing the fuel injector and attempting to suck the piece out the injector hole. The GP chanel has almost no extra room over the width of the GP, so trying to get it out of that is impossible, I think.

Another far-fetched option may be going in through an intake or exhaust port with the piston near TDC with the valve open. You ideally should have a borascope and some type of grabber tool.

But that piece has to come out and you need to be sure you get all of it.

--Nate
 

MonsterTDI09

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Location
NoVa/NJ
TDI
2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
Try hook piece tubing that stiff and flex able to a shop vac and pull i through injectour opening.
 

Havokk

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
1998 Jetta
that flex tool pick up looks realy thick but could do the trick. i have a similar one in my shop but the end where the grab arms go in is about 1/4 inch and wouldnt work on this, this one is hopefully a better quality and thinner at the point where the grabber arms retract into the tool body.

 

Havokk

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
1998 Jetta
my buddy joe mig likes the grabber idea and reccomends trying this




its a pickle or olive grabber. duno it you can get it to grab well enough.
 

zichaj

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Location
Illinois
TDI
2004 Passat GLS Sedan
I took the car to the dealer on Thursday.....I don't like to admit defeat but it's been sitting in the garage for 3 weeks now. I'll let you all know the outcome and cost when I get it back hopefully in perfect shape next week. Thanks for the help.
 

Havokk

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
1998 Jetta
might be better off pushing it off a cliff. Look at it this way, you gave it a good shot. Can't win every time :)
 

FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
CoolAirVw said:
So should regular maintenance include removing the GP's, cleaning off the carbon, and reinstalling to prevent this? Maybe at oil change interval?
In the OP's case, the glowplug failed because it was ceramic and a known problem in the PD series motors. Personally, I use just a dab of high temp never-seize on the threads.
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
well i guess i missed this one before the dealership got involved.

the answer
or the whole thread

I went through a lot of tips and ideas from people, the vacuum was the right answer throughout the perdicament.

You've gotta be persistent. I probably put a good couple hours just fishing fishing fishing. If you NEED your car, then you NEED your car. I had some hours to try. And multiple stops to harbour freight. Good luck with the dealership.

 

zichaj

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Location
Illinois
TDI
2004 Passat GLS Sedan
MayorDJQ said:
Dealer? Ouch.

There are no gurus or even "foreign" specialists in your area?
You guys tried to warn me. I haven't forgotten to update everyone on the outcome of my adventure, my adventure is still not over. I am in the middle of the biggest dealer nightmare of my life. I had the car towed in July 9th and still do not have it back! It will be one month this weekend. I'll give more details later but they tried to give the car back to me finally on Monday with the injector just sitting in the hole. I drove it an could hear there was something wrong. They told me twice in person that the angle and depth of the injector I had removed had been set.

1. Is it possible to do this without seating the injector?

2. Also I saw on one of my numerous trips to the shop that both the front and back rocker lever shafts were off. I had the front one off obviously to pull the number two injector but would there have been a reason to pull the back one?

3. They put both rocker shafts back on with the original stretch bolts or at least I'm assuming since there are no bolts listed on the job invoice. What can happen if the original bolts are used?

4. Can running the engine with an injector loose cause injector tip, injector body, or rocker arm damage? It was in the hole with the tensioning block bolt finger tight.

Oh and one last thing. VW send me a recall letter last week for the glow plug issue!! (Emissions Service Action 28E6/R8) I can only imagine the problems I'm going to have getting them to take $326 off the bill for the new steel plugs and 2 hrs labor.

I'm trying my best to keep my cool but this is just getting out of hand.
 
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