HELP! Engine died shortly after fueling. HPFP?

specsalot

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oxford_guy - I don't think anyone will debate your points. It appears up until this point VW's response has been underwhelming to say the least. VW can point to this figure because it's cited in their self generated ISO 14000 based assessment of their Golf vehicles.



Everything from the pump manufactures common fuel position statement to VW's initial reaction to failures seems to be driven by lawyers and accountants rather than engineers.

VW's response to the latest NHTSA inquiry letter will be the best indication to watch going forward. I think their response will help us all understand how bad a SNAFU these CP4.X pumps really are.

If VW fails to come clean on the issues it is a clear indication that they made a pretty high flying calculated risk with this CR motor. VW can't sell itself as a premier manufacturer of finely engineered vehicles if it resorts to lawyers and accountants to craft policies / positions to protect if from a less than robust engine design.
 
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c17chief

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93206 miles isn't nearly enough. A car should run longer than that, especially a diesel since the only way to recoup the extra upfront cost is to run the car for a lot of miles.

Diesel engines are supposed to be more durable than gasoline engines. It seems as if everyone has forgotten that.

not sure where the 93206 comes from...OP said the car has 44k on it.


edit---n/m, I see now, since specsalot posted the pic :D
 
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MPBsr

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I said it before so I'll say it again.

I don't care if the TDI is 10 years old with 250,000 miles on her.
No repair should cost over $8000.
 

BrianCT

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I said it before so I'll say it again.

I don't care if the TDI is 10 years old with 250,000 miles on her.
No single repair should cost over $8000 with the new replacement part capable of a failure as the first.
Fixed it for ya. And I agree!!!!!!!
 

jagster936

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I agree MPB. I'm contemplating selling or trading mine now. Sad cause I love the car otherwise
 

sabtastic

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Folsom, CA
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2010 Golf TDI
I wonder how many other non-VW CRs have this problem? Quick searches on google have yielded nothing but VW issues. Is it possible to replace our pump with another that has no history of catastrophic failure?
 

Dariof

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So. Nv & So. Ca
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No way to know the exact failure rate. We would need access to dealer databases that I'm not even sure VW has.
Do you think eventually they will ALL fail over many miles, or do you feel that emotion has taken over much of these threads and only a small % will fail.

I know you have no hard data, but I'm just curious as to opinions at this point.
 

emdeeaitch

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Location
San Jose, CA
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2012 Golf TDI
Does anyone know yet the actual failure rate in %, or are we all sitting on a time bomb ready to fail?
This is in one of the other HPFP threads, but there is an approximate known percentage for 2009 and 2010 models. It's based on the numbers that VWoA submitted to NHTSA as part of their first info request. They were supposed to document all HPFP failures. Based on that first submission, slightly more than 1 in 200 2009 models failed, while about 1 in 1000 2010 models failed, as of the time of that submission. There is of course some question as to whether VWoA's numbers were complete, and NHTSA's Oct 7 request is pushing them for way more information. Also, most of us here believe the rate will increase with miles on the fleet, so 1 in 200 might become 1 in 40; 1 in 1000 might become 1 in 200.

Measured a different way, another member of this forum (I can't find the post right now but read it earlier today) estimated that 2.5 percent of the CR driving members on this forum have had the failure. However, it is noted that people often join this board only after trouble, so you could say the members of this board are failure biased.

Do you think eventually they will ALL fail over many miles, or do you feel that emotion has taken over much of these threads and only a small % will fail.
When you ask that question, I think you have to set a specific mileage boundary. I think most here (and I would especially rely on the mechanics' opinions, not mine) would agree that any fuel pump will fail eventually. Prior to these CRs, the expectation on the life of a fuel pump was, depending on who you ask, somewhere between 200K and 300K miles. Some of the people here with experience in larger motors have said they see pumps go even longer. And, importantly, the older pumps did not take the entire system with them every time they failed... So if you asked "would ALL of these pumps fail by 300K miles," then I think the answer would be a very large percentage, at least for early 2009 models. Later 2009 models will behave more like 2010 models, because there are four versions of the same part number pump. Only early 2009 models got the first version. Late 2009 and early 2010 models got the second version. Late 2010 and early 2011 got the third version. Any pump made after a certain date (exact is unknown) in November 2010 will be the fourth (and perhaps final) version of this pump, so mid to late 2011s and all 2012s should have the fourth pump. Whatever VW has done to these pumps will almost certainly reduce the failure rate relative to a specific mileage boundary, but WITHOUT solving the core design defect. In other words, you can feel better about your odds with a fourth version pump than with an original version pump, but if you intend to drive it for 300K you will still see it fail. But long before then there may be an after market or VW issued supplemental filter to keep the pump from destroying the entire system.

Also, just a tip for shopping... before buying a TDI be sure you know how to get a cell phone picture of the pump manufacture date, so that you know you have the latest pump version for the year model that you are buying. Personally I would not buy anything other than a 2012 at this point, which I just did, but that is another story for another post. The pump is the part directly above the alternator (the alternator being easily identified by its copper wire coils). The sticker on the pump is on the under side on the right, so you wedge your cell phone camera in between some hoses. The easiest angle from which to get the shot is from the right side of the pump looking left toward it. The fit from straight below is too tight, at least when using an iPhone.

Also, remember that the pump may be made well before the car, so do NOT go by the manufacture date of the car. I have noticed on Jetta, both wagon and sedan, that the pump tends to be made 3 months before the car. This is almost certainly a result of the parts being shipped from Germany to Mexico. In the Golfs I have observed that the pump and car often have the same month, though the pump obviously has to be at least a few days older than the car. The August build Golf that I just bought had an August 8 made pump on it.
 
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MPBsr

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Location
NJ
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2009 TDI....Traded in
I agree MPB. I'm contemplating selling or trading mine now. Sad cause I love the car otherwise
I would sell mine in a heartbeat if I got my price.

I love the TDI, but this crap about potential major expenses is crazy.

Between the HPFP and the turbo failures, these TDI's are a death trap as well as a rolling timebomb.
 
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emdeeaitch

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Location
San Jose, CA
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2012 Golf TDI
I would sell mine in a heartbeat if I got my price.

I love the TDI, but this crap about potential major expenses is crazy.

Between the HPFP and the turbo failures, these TDI's are a death trap as well as a rolling timebomb.
I'm very critical of VWoA, and I indeed bought a Turbo lemon (see my signature), but I object to raising the turbo failure problem to the level of the HPFP. Turbos now are far more reliable than they were in the 80s. I was not old enough to drive until 1989, but I vividly remember how pretty much everyone older whom I knew with a turbo back then had it break. To buy a turbo back then was to engage in a sort of extravagance. To this day if you buy a turbo with the expectation that it will last as long as the engine block will without maintenance, you are sadly ignorant. A turbo is, unfortunately, a wear part, just like its cousin the supercharger. While some TDI turbos are failing, it is not yet epidemic. Hold out the jury on that one. The upside is that turbos across the board are better than they used to be, not only in terms of longevity but also variable geometry. When you buy a turbo now, it is often as part of a "practical" vehicle as opposed to an extravagant one.

Furthermore, while I will grant that sudden power loss is certainly dangerous, and potentially deadly, it does not elevate the car to the level of "death trap." We really don't need that degree of hyperbole. There are many other types of mechanical failure that can cause sudden complete power loss. The most obvious would be a timing belt/chain failure, but there are others. Also, from a perspective of maintaining vehicle control, a simple flat tire at high speed is probably more likely to cause you to run into something than is simply losing power. Also keep in mind that a certain number of wheel bearings will fail dramatically, causing the entire tire/wheel/rotor assembly to simply detach from the vehicle while at speed--I have personally had the luck to witness this three times in vehicles that were driving in front of me (fortunately nobody got killed).
 
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dustingebhardt

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Tulsa, OK
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2010 Jetta Sportswagen TDI (sold)
In my case, VW is footing the entire bill. They are paying for the towing (~40 miles) and repair. They've given me a loaner Golf until my vehicle is put back together. According to Jon, my CS Tech @ Leith VW in Cary, NC:
  • VW is replacing these with a minimum of questions asked. They used to blame the poor USA diesel fuel quality, the hint of gasoline used at the port to kill algae in the tank, and driver mis-fuels. Now they are simply replacing all of them.
  • VW knows that the diesel in the US is poorer in quality versus the EU. However, things hopefully will get better, given the difficulty VW has with keeping diesels in stock.
  • There was a rash of issues over the summer, but the last 2 months have been quiet, until mine rolled in the door.
  • This repair, if paid out-of-pocket, typically runs ~$15,000. :eek:
 

Dariof

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Location
So. Nv & So. Ca
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2011 JSW TDI
This is in one of the other HPFP threads, but there is an approximate known percentage for 2009 and 2010 models. It's based on the numbers that VWoA submitted to NHTSA as part of their first info request. They were supposed to document all HPFP failures. Based on that first submission, slightly more than 1 in 200 2009 models failed, while about 1 in 1000 2010 models failed, as of the time of that submission. There is of course some question as to whether VWoA's numbers were complete, and NHTSA's Oct 7 request is pushing them for way more information. Also, most of us here believe the rate will increase with miles on the fleet, so 1 in 200 might become 1 in 40; 1 in 1000 might become 1 in 200.

Measured a different way, another member of this forum (I can't find the post right now but read it earlier today) estimated that 2.5 percent of the CR driving members on this forum have had the failure. However, it is noted that people often join this board only after trouble, so you could say the members of this board are failure biased.



When you ask that question, I think you have to set a specific mileage boundary. I think most here (and I would especially rely on the mechanics' opinions, not mine) would agree that any fuel pump will fail eventually. Prior to these CRs, the expectation on the life of a fuel pump was, depending on who you ask, somewhere between 200K and 300K miles. Some of the people here with experience in larger motors have said they see pumps go even longer. And, importantly, the older pumps did not take the entire system with them every time they failed... So if you asked "would ALL of these pumps fail by 300K miles," then I think the answer would be a very large percentage, at least for early 2009 models. Later 2009 models will behave more like 2010 models, because there are four versions of the same part number pump. Only early 2009 models got the first version. Late 2009 and early 2010 models got the second version. Late 2010 and early 2011 got the third version. Any pump made after a certain date (exact is unknown) in November 2010 will be the fourth (and perhaps final) version of this pump, so mid to late 2011s and all 2012s should have the fourth pump. Whatever VW has done to these pumps will almost certainly reduce the failure rate relative to a specific mileage boundary, but WITHOUT solving the core design defect. In other words, you can feel better about your odds with a fourth version pump than with an original version pump, but if you intend to drive it for 300K you will still see it fail. But long before then there may be an after market or VW issued supplemental filter to keep the pump from destroying the entire system.

Also, just a tip for shopping... before buying a TDI be sure you know how to get a cell phone picture of the pump manufacture date, so that you know you have the latest pump version for the year model that you are buying. Personally I would not buy anything other than a 2012 at this point, which I just did, but that is another story for another post. The pump is the part directly above the alternator (the alternator being easily identified by its copper wire coils). The sticker on the pump is on the under side on the right, so you wedge your cell phone camera in between some hoses. The easiest angle from which to get the shot is from the right side of the pump looking left toward it. The fit from straight below is too tight, at least when using an iPhone.

Also, remember that the pump may be made well before the car, so do NOT go by the manufacture date of the car. I have noticed on Jetta, both wagon and sedan, that the pump tends to be made 3 months before the car. This is almost certainly a result of the parts being shipped from Germany to Mexico. In the Golfs I have observed that the pump and car often have the same month, though the pump obviously has to be at least a few days older than the car. The August build Golf that I just bought had an August 8 made pump on it.
Nice analyses. Thank you.

I purchased my JSW 05/11, so it should be the 4th version.

If the failure rate on this board is 2.5%, and VW is reporting 1/1000, then the actual failure rate is probably somewhere in between, but slanted towards VW's number.

Personally, I wouldn't dump the VW with low odds like that, but I also understand those that are.....if THEIR unit fails, then their failure rate is 100%.
 
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timwagon

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I would sell mine in a heartbeat if I got my price.
The resale value on a 2009 TDI is fairly high, as they're in demand.

Not sure what "your price" is, but if owning a TDI is causing you a lot of anxiety, selling it might be the best option for your peace of mind.

I know I wouldn't keep a car if it was a source of constant worry.
 

skinnyb

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Western, NC
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2013 JSW TDI
Good luck OP with your fix. I spoke with a tech at my local dealer who said they have seen several lately of multiple models (ie 2009, 2010, and even one 2011). He also said when they bring it in, VW ships them a whole pallet of parts (ie, entire fuel system) and says fix it, no questions asked.

With that assurance of my local dealers commitment to making it right, I proceeded to trade my 2010 MKV on a new Passat TDI without hesitation. Although I did purchase a 100k warranty just for added peace of mind :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MPBsr

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2009 TDI....Traded in
The resale value on a 2009 TDI is fairly high, as they're in demand.

Not sure what "your price" is, but if owning a TDI is causing you a lot of anxiety, selling it might be the best option for your peace of mind.

I know I wouldn't keep a car if it was a source of constant worry.
My price was $18,000 trade in...Chevy offered me $16,000.

Otherwise taken the tax info into consideration I would take $19,000 as a private sale.
 

emdeeaitch

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My price was $18,000 trade in...Chevy offered me $16,000.

Otherwise taken the tax info into consideration I would take $19,000 as a private sale.
Dealers on the west coast are pricing the used 2009 under 36K miles at 22,900, an probably closing them at 20k or in some cases higher. I you are in that mileage range, find a similar east coast deal and throw that in their face, and it will prove they are trying to just "steal the trade" on you, which they are. I was able to get offers of 18k on mine sight unseen. I did have to push on them verbally a bit, but they did it. Your car is worth 18k in trade unless you have high miles. I don't know where in NJ you are, but if it's anywhere near NY metro I can't imagine that prices are any lower than they are here in San Jose.
 

MPBsr

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2009 TDI....Traded in
Dealers on the west coast are pricing the used 2009 under 36K miles at 22,900, an probably closing them at 20k or in some cases higher. I you are in that mileage range, find a similar east coast deal and throw that in their face, and it will prove they are trying to just "steal the trade" on you, which they are. I was able to get offers of 18k on mine sight unseen. I did have to push on them verbally a bit, but they did it. Your car is worth 18k in trade unless you have high miles. I don't know where in NJ you are, but if it's anywhere near NY metro I can't imagine that prices are any lower than they are here in San Jose.

Just turned 41,000 today and we are close to NYC. Maybe I'll check out another Chevy dealer.
 

DancingDiesel

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Apr 21, 2011
Location
Michigan
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2011 JSW DSG
I have a 2009 JSW. I really missed having a TDI and figured this was a good thing. Bought it with 48K on it last May. I just turned 60K. We drove it 5149 miles across US from Mich to Calif and back last summer. LOVE the car-butttt
this problem you all are talking about is scaring me! Would it pay to put in a new pump? OR is VW really admitting to a problem (as some are saying on this thread) and will cover the cost of replacing now? I am assuming since I have an 09 that my pump may be one of the bad ones? (Yup-Im female so I have girl questions-lol!).
 

jagster936

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Lol. I sure hope VW extends warranty or something it scares me too. But I'm good till 60k I'm only at 21k. Will make me not want to drive it past 60 in 5 years! You could also get 100k warranty which I debate later.
 

specsalot

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Jul 30, 2011
Location
Florida
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In my case, VW is footing the entire bill. They are paying for the towing (~40 miles) and repair. They've given me a loaner Golf until my vehicle is put back together. According to Jon, my CS Tech @ Leith VW in Cary, NC:
  • VW is replacing these with a minimum of questions asked. They used to blame the poor USA diesel fuel quality, the hint of gasoline used at the port to kill algae in the tank, and driver mis-fuels. Now they are simply replacing all of them.
  • VW knows that the diesel in the US is poorer in quality versus the EU. However, things hopefully will get better, given the difficulty VW has with keeping diesels in stock.
  • There was a rash of issues over the summer, but the last 2 months have been quiet, until mine rolled in the door.
  • This repair, if paid out-of-pocket, typically runs ~$15,000. :eek:
Congrats - It's wonderful to hear that VW seems to be stepping up. Current owners have to take this as positive news.

I won't ask the obvious question about what if anything can be done for the owners from 09 until this summer who got 'shafted' until VW came to their senses.
 

3516ACERT

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Location
Maryland
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2010 JSW
Calm down everyone.

The odds are in our favor - even conservatively it's about 500:1 and the more you hear about failures, the better off you are because every failure that is not yours improves your odds.

According to OP; you get a loaner, you get reimbursed for the tow, you get a new pump installed, and you get really really good odds that lightning won't strike you twice. Silver lining, right?
\
Somewhere upthread the car was called
a death trap as well as a rolling timebomb
,

If I felt that way about my car I would tow it to the nearest non-VW dealership and trade it in for something I wasn't afraid to drive.
 

oxford_guy

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Congrats - It's wonderful to hear that VW seems to be stepping up. Current owners have to take this as positive news.
It's wonderful that they're repairing something under warranty?

What would be wonderful is for the HPFP failure problem to be warrantied for 200,000 miles—the reasonable lifespan of a diesel car.
 

maxedtdi

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I'd say 200k is a reach but 100-150k would add a lot of piece of mind to those worried about the fuel pump.
 

Dariof

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:rolleyes: says who?

cars break, deal with it.
100,000 is not enough. They break, yes. But cars should, and do, last longer without a catastrophic failure.

Especially diesels, which are known for 300K +

Fix the HPFP, and you probably do have a 300K+ mile vehicle.

Here are 2 great articles.
Another great article in the post below this one. Take the time to read them in entirety, and you'll see 100K miles is horrible.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_car_has_the_longest_average_life_expectancy

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100413084810AAyRty5
 
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Dariof

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100,000 is not acceptable.
Yup.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/CarsThatLastAMillionMiles.aspx

"Days past, 100,000 miles was usually the average life of a car," says John Ibbotson, a workshop supervisor who's in charge of vehicles that are tested for Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center in Connecticut, referring to vehicles from the 1950s to 1970s.
"At 100,000 miles, we were into major engine and transmission rebuilding," Ibbotson says. "Cars in the '90s, it was 140,000, 150,000 miles."
The U.S. Department of Transportation reports the average life span of a vehicle is 12 years, or about 128,500 miles. But that could be low simply because people don't maintain them, Ibbotson says. "If you bought a car today, there shouldn't be any problem with that car going 200,000 miles," he says.
 
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