HELP! Engine died shortly after fueling. HPFP?

[dustingebhardt]

I'm typing this from a parking lot, waiting for the tow truck to arrive. My engine cranks, but won't catch and start. I refueled 1 mile ago and it seemed to run fine up until it died. Could this be a HPFP issue? My JSW has 45551 miles on it. I bought it used at 18k miles and I've run PS Diesel Kleen at every fill up. I have a copy of VCDS being overnighted from RossTech.

 

[maxedtdi]

you have power-train warranty in effect still. Tow it to the dealer and find out. This is not enough information to determine the cause.

 

[IMAAaron]

I sincerely hope whatever the cause is covered under warranty. Good luck. That just made for a long day, I'm sure.

 

[Ol'Rattler]

The symptoms point to miss fueling with gasoline or contaminated fuel...............

Make sure your recieght says Diesel on it and ASAP go back to the station with a clean container, explain your dilemma to the attendant and pump some fuel from the pump you used and don't forget to get a recieght.

Involving the attendant might help establish a chain of custody for your sample in case you have to prove the station's fuel was contaminated or they were negligent in some way.

 

[3516ACERT]

It would be insulting to ask you if you filled up with "what?" a mile ago, so I won't even ask. ;-p

I would not jump to HPFP before first blaming the Fuel filter. Think of the easy inexpensive fixes first.

Cranking without catching certainly points towards fuel.... hope it's a relatively simple fix and not your pump. Good Luck!

 

[740GLE]

DEVILS ADVOCATE: hope your service records are up to date, as you were suposed to have a fuel filter change out at 40K and that might allow VW weasle out of paying for the failure.

Good luck and keep us posted. BTW 1 mile isn't that far from refuel!

 

[dpg]

good luck! where there any lights lit up on your dash when it died?

 

[dustingebhardt]

Yes, I refueled with diesel. ;-) In fact, I had refueled at this same station several days before, and I realized then that they have both the big-rig-style pumps and the smaller-diameter car pumps. This time, I made sure to use the smaller pump because the larger pump fills the tank and filler neck too quickly, overflowing the filler neck. What a mess.

And yes, I realize that 1 mile is not very far from a fuel up. However, during that mile I sat in line at a drive-thru food joint. Speaking of which, while in line I thought I heard a faint, tinny rattle, almost like a think piece of sheet metal that is loose and rattling around.

I did the 40k service myself, which included replacing the fuel filter. I do have a record of purchasing the filter from Keffer VW.

I have filed a preemptive claim with the fuel station (Wilco/Hess). They will retain a sample, and the dealership will retain a sample from my fuel tank, too. And since the drivetrain warranty is still active (thanks maxedtdi), I took it to the local dealer. We'll see how it goes with them first. Then I'll get VCDS and go my own route if need be.

The dash showed a Service Engine Soon notice right before it went dark.

 

[maxedtdi]

Rattling noise is not good... That is starting to point to a HPFP failure. If so keep us posted.

 

[specsalot]

There are many potential causes. HPFP failure is the low probability one that seems to get a lot of air play in this forum. [I'm sure I've done my share of bitcxxxx about it because I think the HPFP design stinks]. Rattling is likely due to the engine being starved for fuel or otherwise losing something that allows it to run. I'm sure the control system was doing it's best to maintain idle RPM.

The dealer should be looking for wiring issues / loose connections and other shut down items. The DTC code will point them in the right direction if their tech's have a good head for T/S. If the lift pump (located in the fuel tank) stops operating, it will shut you down in a heart beat. Take a breath, it's probably not the HPFP. Just be sure your dealer does not miss diagnose it as HPFP failure. I have a pump in my hands that looks like it was a clearly miss diagnosed HPFP failure. So this can happen. To a dealer an HPFP job is just more shop revenue.

 

[sflier]

How did you end up priming the pump without vcds during the 40k service? How long ago was that service?

 

[dustingebhardt]

Confirmed: the HPFP has failed. I went to the shop this morning and the tech walked me to my car and removed the pressure sensor on the HPFP. The opening was full of metal shavings. He has ordered a complete fuel system and my car will be down for several days. I've requested that he save the bad HPFP for me, so that I can break it down and post some pics here.

How did you end up priming the pump without vcds during the 40k service? How long ago was that service?

I did not need to prime the pump when I changed the filter. I had heard that the engine will stall several times until the filter chamber is filled and the pump is primed. With mine, I didn't have that issue. I'm not sure why, other than the filter chamber was still full of fuel?

 

[740GLE]

It'll depend if VW is pick up the bill if you get to keep the HPFP.

Did the tech say anything from the fuel sample he pulled?

 

[pcnorton]

Wow that's amazing that it not some high probability cheap problem such as specsalot posted(but not reported here on the forum) and the low percentage HPFP (reported a lot and even class action suit){Please read this with the sarcasm intended}.

Good luck, keep us posted, and dont forget to add your post to the low percentage HPFP failure thread.

 

[maxedtdi]

What was the station location so that others can avoid it?!

Also was a fuel sample pulled?

Sucks to hear you run diesel kleen I am running it also and clearly it didn't prevent a failure.

 

[epc]

I believe this is the first confirmed instance of hpfp failure with consistent use of additive?

 

[cristoaca]

Don't forget to file a complaint with NHTSA!

 

[maxedtdi]

I believe this is the first confirmed instance of hpfp failure with consistent use of additive?

He did buy the car used at 18k miles... so prior additive use was not reported.

Don't forget to file a complaint with NHTSA!

+1 and please vote in our poll thread and post in official "failure" thread.

 

[TwoTone]

I believe this is the first confirmed instance of hpfp failure with consistent use of additive?

No, other have also. Additives are a mental piece of mind.

 

[motoblue]

Additives will not stop a significant contamination from water or gasoline. Still sounds like the recent fuel-up may be to blame.

 

[pcnorton]

DO you really believe its just a few bad stations with bad fuel?


Paul

 

[motoblue]

As I see it, you can't generalize about the HPFP problem without breaking each event down for its root cause. What percentage of failures are caused by a one-time bad tank of fuel? What percentage can't be traced to bad fuel, but to a poor pump running low or barely-minimum quality fuel over the course of several thousand miles? It drives me crazy when someone extrapolates a general condition from one or two cases, particularly when the root cause(s) of each example isn't known.

I really do believe the majority of HPFP failures are due to one-time catastrophic events like a bad batch of fuel. Given the OP's pump failed 1 mile after a fuel-up, yes, absolutely I think he should look first at the fuel station. If the fuel turns up okay, then look to the older history of the vehicle and a possible bad fuel pump.

You dump 12 gallons of bad fuel (water/gas contaminated) and a capful of additive into a CR, and yes, the pump will fail. In most cases it seems, it's a one-time deal.

For the cumulative effect of using lower quality but meets the low-standard-to-be-sold-in-US in these engines, additives might help a weakly designed/manufactured fuel pump. These should be a warranty fix as necessary--then the problem in my eyes is the pretty poor 5y/60K warranty. As the CR fleet ages, we should get a better picture about how bad that problem really is.

 

[pcnorton]

I really do believe the majority of HPFP failures are due to one-time catastrophic events like a bad batch of fuel. Given the OP's pump failed 1 mile after a fuel-up, yes, absolutely I think he should look first at the fuel station. If the fuel turns up okay, then look to the older history of the vehicle and a possible bad fuel pump.

Did you forget? your own first paragraph before typing the second?

As I see it, you can't generalize about the HPFP problem without breaking each event down for its root cause.

But if it is "bad fuel" We need to define "bad fuel" then tell us all how we can prepare or prevent this.


Paul

 

[3516ACERT]

Sorry to hear it dustingebhardt, I was hoping for both of us that it was a clogged filter.
Keep an eye on that station, if the diesel pump you used suddenly gets tagged "out of service" that might mean they got their fuel sample analyzed and found the delivery driver got his tank top symbols mixed up. Don't expect them to confess that mistake to you either.

 

[dustingebhardt]

Did the tech say anything from the fuel sample he pulled?

The sample will be pulled when they drop the fuel tank (hopefully) next week.

What was the station location so that others can avoid it?!

Wilco/Hess in Sanford, NC on Horner st/US-421

Also was a fuel sample pulled?

I have filed a complaint with Wilco/Hess on the assumption that they fuel was bad. According to the store manager, she sold 600 gallons of diesel yesterday and hasn't heard of any complaints. She had taken a sample that morning, which will go with my complaint to the district office. Once I sign the complaint form on Monday, I will keep calling them until I get an answer.

Sucks to hear you run diesel kleen I am running it also and clearly it didn't prevent a failure.

I hear ya. Although I do realize that this is a wearable part, and that it won't last forever. I was hoping to avoid this failure for at least 100k. Ce la vie.

Don't forget to file a complaint with NHTSA!

I will, for sure!!

I typically only go to larger-name fuel stations and avoid the bargain brands. This was my seconds time at a Wilco/Hess, with the previous visit last week at this same station. And I will continue to use the PS products, or I may stop by the local biofuel coop and pick up a gallon or two of B99.9, to use at a lubricity agent via dilution with the normal pump diesel.

 

[motoblue]

Did you forget? your own first paragraph before typing the second?




But if it is "bad fuel" We need to define "bad fuel" then tell us all how we can prepare or prevent this.


Paul

From the majority of the anecdotes I read on this site, the failure of the HPFP is caused by bad fuel. But yes, I admit it's purely speculative--as is the other stuff about weak pumps, bad nation-wide fuel, and other generalizations. All are assumptions until we get a breakdown of which failures were due to contaminated fuel and which were due to weak pumps. A percentage of the pumps, no matter how well-designed, are going to fail. That's just mechanics. Arguably, EVERY pump should be robust enough to take the poor(er) quality diesel we have in the states. But it seems like even small amounts of contaminants can cause a problem with these engines. As to what you can do, to the best of your ability, use good quality fuel. In cases of bad fuel, the only recourse is repair by replacing the fuel system.

So yes, I admit I am assuming, but it's an assumption based on the fact that the OP's car broke down a mile after fueling.

The OP needs to find out if he got bad fuel (gasoline in diesel, water in diesel) from the last fill up. If the fuel was bad enough, it wouldn't matter that he treated that and the previous 100 tanks of fuel with additive. I don't understand the assumption from the fact he consistently used additive since the car's been in his possession that this error was caused by a weak pump. That may or may not be the case, and won't be determined until the fuel sample gets run. From the fact that the pump failed very soon after a fuel-up, it seems more logical to me that the root cause may be a one-time tank of bad fuel. However, each scenario is a hypothesis until the root cause is determined.

 

[pcnorton]

Well I'm thinking it's more than bad fuel for 5280 feet. Just my guess. My rational is the metal everywhere probably didn't happen in 5280 feet, 2 minutes at 30mph. If it was that bad of fuel you would think that you would have had some engine symptons, rough start after fill up etc.

But if you believe fuel that was so bad to grenade a pump in 2 minutes and no symptoms, thats your precognitive. Having experienced a HPFP no where close to a fill up, with EVERY tank fill up logged and with a reciept for each I may be a little biased and not into carrying water for VWOA.


It will be interesting to see how this plays out with NTHSA.

I love my JSW. Its the best vehicle out there in its class on paper. This HPFP is not an aberration, low percentage thing as some would claim. There is something wrong, I want a fix so I can keep the vehicle.



Paul

 

[specsalot]

Bad news for sure. I'm certainly not carrying water for VWOA. In my spare time over the last couple months I've been studing a "failed" HPFP that clearly did not experience a failure. It had ~ 22k miles on it. I've just upgraded my measuring tools and am confirming that most components operate with diametrical running clearances of ~0.0015" or less which is impressive. Looks like VW / Bosch really fell down on their tribiology first and their design second. I believe that every pump has metal swarf circulating in it that eventually becomes an agent of failure over time / miles irregardless of the root cause for its creation.

Most failures seem to be the impact accumulated swarf running over an extended period of time. When the anti-friction / anti-wear (?) coating on the captive roller carrier goes, the real failure process takes hold in earnest. That is the point wear swarf generation likely goes way up do to the transition from rolling to sliding contact between the roller and cam.

My local dealership has only seen two HPFP failures. I questioned two of their SR's on HPFP failure before buying my '11 Golf in July. Both confirmed that in each case only the pump was replaced. [So it sounds like the dealership is still way down on the learning curve]. In any case one of the failures was a huge miss-fuel with gasoline. The car didn't get one block from the gas station before it stalled permanently. The SA's didn't provide details on the other failure except to say they suspected miss-fuel / bad fuel. [Classic VW defensive position up until the NHTSA ramped up pressure on them.]

My fantasy bet is that we all get new Delphi HPFP's or at minimum a warranty extension till 150,000km (~93206 miles) on the HPFP.

 

[c17chief]

Sorry if I overlooked this somehow, but I am surprised it hasnt been asked 20 times yet if this is warrantied or if you are paying out of pocket. In the beginning it was questionable if VW would cover it routinely under any circumstance. That seems to have changed for the better and seems they do pick up the tab routinely now under warranty. Next up was if the pump technicly fell under the longer drivetrain warranty and not just the bumper to bumper portion, which there is still a lot of conflicting info. Now here you are with a failed pump right in between the 2....so is VW footing the bill or you paying out of pocket for it?

 

[oxford_guy]

93206 miles isn't nearly enough. A car should run longer than that, especially a diesel since the only way to recoup the extra upfront cost is to run the car for a lot of miles.

Diesel engines are supposed to be more durable than gasoline engines. It seems as if everyone has forgotten that.