Has this been done before? Should we start?

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
Guys, with the recent bad press about Diesel technology, I'm getting sick and tired to hear from organizations such as the Sierra Club, Union of Concerned Scientists, EPA, CARB and others perpetuating literal lies about Diesel emissions. The UCS page which I alluded to in another thread was the last straw for me.

I propose that we write an open letter contributed by a collaborated effort of members from this Forum, as well as external experts, not necessarily to trump the TDI specifically, but to inform the recipients of the letter of the current state-of-the-art in Diesel emissions control and debate various issues such as tailpipe HC/NOx emissions, health effects of Diesel particulate matter, refinery-to-tailpipe pollution and energy consumption, CO2 emissions, etc.

This is a big undertaking, guys, and we need serious people to spend time to do some serious research, both of which would add credibility to the letter. We will need people to volunteer to do research on many different aspects that go a little deeper than, "I am the owner of a VW TDI; it's the best car I've ever owned, and it gets over 50 MPG to boot!" or "We want Pumpe-Düse or V6 TDIs made available or we'll start a riot in the major cities of America and Canada.... oh, and we want low-sulphur fuel, too, and NOW!"

I for one would be happy to contribute, and looking at the professions of some of our members in another thread, we need YOU scientists and engineers! I envision this letter, when completed, would be sent to politicians in every jurisdiction in the US and Canada where we have members; the Sierra Club, UCS, CARB, EPA, DOT; forwarded to every automaker with a North American presence including VWoA; to the media; and placed as a public open letter to every visitor to Fred's TDI website. Perhaps we can get support in numbers with other online forums like the Cummins, Powerstroke forums and VWVortex.

So what do you think? May I propose we open something like this:

To whom it may concern:

We the undersigned are writing to you representing an advocacy and enthusiast group for Volkswagen TDI automobiles and technology, with a membership of almost 2400 people and growing. This letter also has the support and contibution from members of various other discussion forums numbering xxxxx. We have among our collective voice, members spanning the entire globe in all fields of expertise, including hi-tech professionals, scientists, engineers, academics, lawyers, and {insert your important-sounding title here}.

We are writing to express our dismay at the negligent misinformation and, in the extreme case, what we view as gross misrepresentation of facts surrounding the subject of the viability of Diesel technology for current and future transportation use as regards to emissions of smog-generating pollutants and carcinogenic by-products of Diesel exhaust. Through this letter we aim to debate some of views put forward by certain environmental and industry lobby groups -- which we conclude to be inaccurate through our own research and through the multitude of research done by other experts in numerous disciplines -- and perpetuated by the media. This letter also aims to furnish information compiled by its authors about the abovementioned subject in an objective manner based on sound fact.


[This message has been edited by tdimeister (edited July 27, 2000).]
 

VW Derf

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 3, 1996
Location
Richmond, BC, Canada
TDI
2010 Blue Graphite Pearl Golf Variant
tdimeister,

I love this idea. I can setup a page/section with all the data we can dig up on this issue to back up our claims. This is one thing we really need. "XXX says XXX" doesn't have the effect as "Respected publication/scientist XX has proven XXX".
 

HowardZ

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 5, 1999
Location
m
I think that without including publicly available pollution statistics and reports to back up your claims you will not change anybody's opinion. Not evern 2400 letters will do this.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
Howard, you're right, and that's why our researchers will need to delve into SAE papers galore, books, and other publications. The message should also include first-hand expert testimonials, as Fred said.

Later I'll post some web-sites which would be good resources, but to start, check-out the obvious government and industry sites like DOE, EPA, API, CARB, DOT... then check out independent sites like: www.wardsauto.com www.dieselnet.com www.sae.org

...as well as universities and anything that come out from search engines. Any help from anybody for brainstorming and info-collecting would be welcome and appreciated. You can use this thread to add web-links and references to other resources, or start another in a more appropriate place, perhaps.
 

jkb

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2000
Location
Omaha, NE, Douglas
Mik... I agree that this would be a huge uphill battle. I think what would be ideal is a huge grass-roots PR campaign... something that might get some press coverage or something that would gain allies in environmental groups.

Getting misinformation corrected in the media (If that is even humanly possible) would be a huge step and getting environmental groups to realize the benefits of newer diesel technology would be equally important.

I have a friend who is very much an environmentalist. He was interested in my new car when I told him it gets 50 MPG on the HWY... until he found out is was a diesel. But I keep hammering away at him. He seemed to be more interested when I started talking about bio diesel... especially when I told him about the Earth Day celebration, which used bio diesel generators to power the festival.

I really think many environmentalists would become advocates if they knew the facts.
 

Dante

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2000
Location
Pacific Northwest
TDI
Silver 2000 Golf GLS TDI
I think this is a great idea! My .02--we need to appeal to voters and politicians and get misinformation corrected in the media. We have opportunities to educate our fellow citizens all the time--all my coworkers know I have a nice car that gets 45 mpg because it's a diesel. A letter to your representative or the media does no harm and might do some good. Awhile back I e-mailed one of those "green car" websites because TDIs were not represented. I expected to get the "diesel's aren't green" response, but to my surprise the webmaster responded favorably. It will be even easier to appeal to voters and politicians and correct media misinformation when we have the FACTS at our fingertips.
 

Mik

Veteran Member
Joined
May 19, 2000
Location
Back Home in Enn Aitch
TDI
Jetta, 2001, green
A few words of caution and concern;

Politicians, for the most part, won't look twice at your facts unless you have one very important thing to back them up: votes. Votes are important to bad pols because they help to keep them in office. They are important to good pols because siding with the perceived majority of voters is one way to attempt to represent one's constituency.

Certainly we do no favors by keeping silent on the matter, but be prepared for an uphill battle. Any advocacy group can tell you that if facts alone won political victories in the United States, the legal landscape would be a very different place.

To get those votes, you need to appeal to voters, not politicians. Getting the pols on your side is always important, but without the votes to back up the data, it is just another study. This doesn't mean that the task is not worth undertaking, but that an information packet alone is not likely to make many changes.

Also, advocacy is an uphill fight, while condemnation is downhill - Groups like the Union of Concerned Scientists (Unlimited Condemning Statistics) can wring their collective hands and call for bans and restrictions that seem to harm no one (most people don't drive diesels, though nearly all benefit from lower goods costs thanks to them). We, on the other hand, have to convince people that these self-appointed "saviours du planet" are legislating based on junk science and eco-paranoia.

This could be the start of an advocacy group with a long, uphill battle ahead of it, or a letter that members of congress look over and put in the 'maybe later' bin.

Additionally, it just might be possible to quietly and sweetly convince such groups as the Sierra Club that the TDI and other modern diesels actually have a lot to offer, especially from a source-to-terminus energy and pollution cost point of view. If the Clubbers could be convinced we mean them no harm, perhaps someone rational could get close and sneak them a rabies shot for some of the less well-grounded positions.

Is it worthwhile? Absolutely! After all, who else is going to do it?

=Mik


[This message has been edited by Mik (edited July 27, 2000).]
 

christi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 22, 1999
Location
Ruislip, Middlesex, UK
TDI
Peugeot 806, 607
The "cleanest" diesel that is currently available is the Peugeot 607. This car is now in production / on sale with a self regenerating particulate trap. You can read about it at http://www.peugeot.com/innov/en/html/faphdi.htm .

Maybe someone could contact Peugeot and ask them for emissions data for this car, and then compare the figures with similar sized petrol and gas (LPG, CNG) powered cars.

The 607 is a large car, I guess Audi A6 sized.

Maybe Peugeot would consider it as some free publicity for them.

------------------
1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon (variant))
See my Peugeot / Passat site
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Excellent outstanding publication regarding high quality diesel fuel and major decrease in emissions, look closely at the last couple of pages. Puts everything else to shame:

ftp://www.sasol.com/pdf/synfuels/tae99.pdf

It does not get any better than this unless you are on another planet!
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
"Diesel engines are far more efficient than gasoline engines because they are unthrottled, have higher compression levels, and are turbocharged, which significantly increases thermodynamic efficiency. The fact that the diesel engine is unthrottled is its greatest asset. Internal combustion engines breathe air into their cylinders via the intake manifold. When the pressure in the manifold is at atmospheric level or greater, the engine can breathe freely. There is a partial vacuum in the manifold of gasoline engines unde most operating conditions, but the manifold pressure in a turbocharged diesel is always equal to or greater than atmospheric pressure. The gasoline engine is throttled by how much air is allowed to enter the engine, while the diesel engine is throttled by how much fuel is injected into the cylinder. When the engine does not have to work to breathe, it is more efficient.

Volkswagen currently makes a 1.9-liter diesel engine with excellent fuel economy, but it's not popular in the U.S. because it offers less performance than Americans generally prefer. Also, diesel fuel is not as readily available in some places as gasoline.

Excellent diesel fuel and emission paper from the Southwest Research Institute:

http://www.swri.org/3pubs/ttoday/fall99/fuels.htm
 

TDIsmokin

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2000
Location
Tillsonburg, Ontario, Canada
I support the effort. This is an exellent idea and one whose time has come in the forum. Instead of bickering and talking about how you hold your steering wheel , let's do something positive to improve the public perception of diesel powered automobiles. We are slowly and surely becoming a lobby group of our own. Let's start acting like one and the pro's in the Forum with real knowledge to add to the discussion and the letters and interviews must help. I am not an engineer but am willing to help you in any way possible.
Good Idea TDImeister.
Even if you move to Europe as you have eluded to before in other threads you can be with us from over the pond via the magical "net".
Claude

------------------
TDIsmokin
Claude

I am an elitist. I drive a TDI!!
 

nortones2

Veteran Member
Joined
May 10, 2000
Location
High Peak, UK
TDI
Formerly Passat 1.9 110hp
This is to add my support, such as it is. European engine makers - e.g. Peugeot/Citroen and VW/Audi have been faced with resistance to diesel in the UK as well as North America, they might be able to add factual support to a more rational approach. Some signs of this from Peugeot in the UK Diesel magazine, which I think is known to some members in the US and Canada. As a small token, I've subscribed to this mag. otherwise in the UK the running will all be made by petrol junkies.
 
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