Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

[newdie]

Oh swell. Subscribed.

 

[El Dobro]

With all the overfilled crankcases on the CR engines makes me wonder if it has anything to do with all the goop formation.

 

[dzcad90]

There are lots of issues here that start as isolated cases. Balance shaft issues, BEW or '01 ALH cam wear, lift pump failures--you get the idea.

Without question, however there's no reason at this time to assume this is anything to start losing sleep over. Some are beating the drum like it's a catastrophic issue that's going to have an effect on everyone.

We don't know anything about the car or cars in question. Were there any other influences, etc...Discussion is fine, but spreading fear is not. At this time there's no evidence that this is epidemic or even the cause of some, most, or all rough/cold start issues. Some in this forum seem to buy into doom and gloom hook, line, and sinker.

 

[birkie]

We don't know anything about the car or cars in question. Were there any other influences, etc...

There are also several independent reports that there is a TSB due out soon related to moisture or icing in the intake plumbing. If so, it may shed some light on what is happening.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

It's interesting to me that owners of these cars are the ones systematically denying issues, including HPFP problems. Making a generalized statement like "this is an isolated case" is no more accurate or useful than saying "this is a universal design flaw." What's important at this point is to not ignore what seems to be going on.

Good news about this issue, unlike the HPFP one, is that an owner can take preventive steps. Get the car in a warm place and drain the intercooler piping. If I owned an '09 or later I'd certainly be crawling under the car. Why not? Doesn't cost anything, gives you peace of mind.

 

[JLMurphy]

One byproduct of combustion is water vapor.Low pressure EGR in a CRD is sent thru the inter cooler,so water condenses faster in colder weather in the IC and not so much when warmer.

I think this is the elephant in the room. Regardless of ambient humidity the engine itself is producing large quantities of water all the time. Previous engines used only high pressure EGR meaning the exhaust was diverted directly from the exhaust manifold to the intake. The new CRD motors divert some portion of the low pressure exhaust back to the turbo's intake to be re-compressed. Now this low pressure exhaust is extremely high in water content. How high? Think about the water vapor and even liquid water dripping from exhaust pipes all the time.

This warm humid air from the exhaust is mixed with cold air from the intake and then compressed, heating it. Now it flows through the intercooler where it cools considerably. I have no problem believing that the temperatures in the intercooler in cold conditions could be low enough to cause water to either condense and puddle if there is a low flow region of the intercooler or freeze directly onto the interior of the intercooler itself only to melt and collect later.

In either case, I think the most likely culprit is not the humidity of the air being drawn into the engine, but rather the humidity of the exhaust coming out of it being recirculated to the intake. This would explain (a) why the CRD motors experience this problem and (b) why ONLY CRD motors experience this problem.

If this is correct, then the TSB could be as simple as as software change to modify the EGR cycle in cold conditions to reduce chances of water condensing or freezing in the intercooler.

For my part, I'm definitely going to be pulling the intercooler hose when I change the oil this weekend.


Jim
2010 Golf TDI

 

[GraniteRooster]

Without question, however there's no reason at this time to assume this is anything to start losing sleep over. Some are beating the drum like it's a catastrophic issue that's going to have an effect on everyone.

We don't know anything about the car or cars in question. Were there any other influences, etc...Discussion is fine, but spreading fear is not. At this time there's no evidence that this is epidemic or even the cause of some, most, or all rough/cold start issues. Some in this forum seem to buy into doom and gloom hook, line, and sinker.

I can appreciate your skepticism, which is an essential part of critical thinking. If I am guilty of spreading gloom and doom, then I will apologize and we can have a good laugh at my expense - there is no harm intended.

However, I will offer the following for your consideration. I would like to point out that I am not "buying into" gloom and doom. I have considered the evidence and my experiences carefully and over several weeks, reached the conclusions discussed here on my own, and have started this thread because I believe there is need for significant concern.

I would submit the following for your individual consideration, and you may each choose to attach whatever weight to my comments you consider appropriate - again, no harm intended:

1) While new here, I have lurked here for almost 2 years and have never joined because there was never a discussion I felt the need to get drawn into. I knew about HPFP issues before I bought the car, and bought it anyway. Use PS & Bio - no big deal. I'll deal with it IF it happens. I am not prone to "alarmist" reactionary responses unless there is good reason - and my lack of posting here before now might be considered evidence of this.

2) I am a practicing mechanical engineer that makes methodical design decisions in conjuction with the rest of our development staff every day based on evidence, engineering fundamentals, and the need to keep real customers equipment working properly.

The reason for my long commute is that I am a consulting engineer that gets paid to design, build, operate, and troubleshoot industrial process equipment that uses centrifugal and lobe compressors, heat exchangers, evaporator/condensers, and electronic control systems not unlike those used in our cars, but for a different purpose.

I don't know everything, but I am often smart enough to know whether or not I've got a good handle on a problem. I am also often smart enough to bring attention to a serious problem if need be, or to keep my mouth shut if I don't have a good handle on what I am talking about.

3) I have several years experience in automotive design through the Formula SAE program, captained my university FSAE team during grad school, and have continued to serve as a mentor to that FSAE team over the last 10 years. I probably don't know half as much about cars as a lot of people on this forum, or someone who works on cars full-time, but I know my way around a car at least a little.

Now, I am not infallible, nor am I trying to build myself up. I'm just another guy with an opinion, thats just giving you a better idea where I am coming from. I hope I am wrong. However, I don't think I am based upon my direct experience and engineering judgement.

I apologize to all who feel my take on this is too severe - it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I think the next major weather system across the snow belt we will be seeing another round of these complaints.

Also - with all respect forum mod DZCAD90 - I only suggested that people who have had multiple nasty rough starts get their compression checked - not necessarily everyone. If you had been sitting in the car for mine you might think it was a good idea too, especially if you plan on owning the car for a long time (i.e. past warranty). Severe bucking, rapid unsteady drops in RPM, etc. It is a simple diagnostic test that confirms the extent of any possible damage, which is a logical step to take after these events.

Not an absurd suggestion at all....

 

[VarmintSlayer]

Been threw this a few times, oil consumption is normal, no signs of a blown head gasket and engine runs smooth.

 

[TDIFred]

Hey GraniteRooster. I, for one, am glad that you bought this car, that you stopped 'lurking' (that has to be one of the worst words in the Internet lexicon) and that your posts are so thoughtful, useful, and informative. Thanks!
It is really good when people knowledgeable about the inner mechanical workings can comment when things go 'screwy' with these cars, which are complex enough as it is. They used to be so much easier before all the pollution control equipment was added.
two cents now costs three cents to produce in Canada.

 

[740GLE]

I have to agree with giantroosters term of hydrolocking, what i think people get hung up on is hydrolocking is 99% tied to massive engine carnage.

"I had a "run away" that crapped the bed when it hydrolocked." but in the case that I had last feb and what many have here the car starts, idles rough for 3-5 seconds the dies. How much wear and tear does an engine take to stall from an idle? I know it doesn't take much from the countless times I've stalled mine.

So I'm asking why can't you have a hydrolock without causing damage? the initial mass is really low at 1000rpm, the engines cold, who says you'r sucking in one giant slug that first time it's turned over, maybe it's a little bit more more then kills itself. It's just not a term were used to hearing without the damage.

When I had my start, stumble die, dead battery slow turn over problem, I had all the same conditions everyone else had. I jumped out of the car took a look at the tail pipes, didn't see any water dripping out, or even mist or condensation. I let it idle for 15 min before driving away as nothing happend.

I do think there should be preventitive measure people should take even if VW issues a TSB, a sheet of lexan or some sort of plastic (lunch tray cut up?) zip tied over half the intercooler sounds like a smart move to me.

 

[Ski in NC]

When a piston approaches TDC, the leverage of the crank provides a huge mechanical advantage. So even at low rpm it is possible to bend a rod. Not saying that it would happen, just that it is certainly possible. I think compression tests are in order for cars that hydrolock. That will tell the story.

I bent a rod on a 6-92 detroit on hydrolock with the starter.

 

[GraniteRooster]

When a piston approaches TDC, the leverage of the crank provides a huge mechanical advantage. So even at low rpm it is possible to bend a rod. Not saying that it would happen, just that it is certainly possible. I think compression tests are in order for cars that hydrolock. That will tell the story.

I bent a rod on a 6-92 detroit on hydrolock with the starter.

Did the engine continue to run with a bent rod? Or did it get torn down due to the damage?

 

[740GLE]

I agree that it couldn't hurt, but to say what happed wasn't a hydrolock doesn't make sense.

As for your case, whats the compression ratio for that detroit compared to our? how big is that starter compared to ours?

 

[GraniteRooster]

I agree that it couldn't hurt, but to say what happed wasn't a hydrolock doesn't make sense.

As for your case, whats the compression ratio for that detroit compared to our? how big is that starter compared to ours?

6V92 should be 19:1 compression ratio for NA, 6V92T would be slightly lower.

 

[Ski in NC]

Did the engine continue to run with a bent rod? Or did it get torn down due to the damage?

It ran, but misfired on cold start. Had a cracked injector tube that leaked coolant into cylinder. Misfire was probably due to wet cylinder. Head had to come off to fix tube, piston to deck measurement showed piston was low at tdc.

 

[Ski in NC]

I agree that it couldn't hurt, but to say what happed wasn't a hydrolock doesn't make sense.

As for your case, whats the compression ratio for that detroit compared to our? how big is that starter compared to ours?

This was a TA version, 550hp. The CR is 17:1, lower than the NA and T versions.

The starter is Delco either 40MT or 50MT, pretty big, probably 50-60lb.

 

[bdisco]

http://www.shadetreemechanic.com/tornado_air.htm

Maybe if we install one of these downstream in the intake it would create a vortex and atomize any sludge before it's drawn into the combustion chamber. Someone cut up a beer can give this a try.

 

[ToeBall]

Maybe if we install one of these downstream in the intake it would create a vortex and atomize any sludge before it's drawn into the combustion chamber. Someone cut up a beer can give this a try.

I've already got something in my intake creating a vortex... it's called a turbocharger.

 

[GraniteRooster]

I have asked Santa for a leather aviator cap, flying goggles, and an "Intercooler Heat" button to help me on my long commutes.

 

[TDIFred]

I have asked Santa for a leather aviator cap, flying goggles, and an "Intercooler Heat" button to help me on my long commutes.

Good golly, I wish I still believed! All I asked for was foglights from ECS Tuning!

 

[IFRCFI]

Doesn't cost anything

It costs me time, energy, and laying on a cold concrete floor. You need to remember that for some of us, these cars aren't hobbies. This is VW's issue.

 

[740GLE]

It costs me time, energy, and laying on a cold concrete floor. You need to remember that for some of us, these cars aren't hobbies. This is VW's issue.

good luck with that! drive over to VWoA and see what they do for you.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

It costs me time, energy, and laying on a cold concrete floor. You need to remember that for some of us, these cars aren't hobbies. This is VW's issue.

Sure it is. I agree. But at least if you want to you can do something about it. Not having to worry would, for me anyway, make it worth the effort.

 

[n1das]

I think this is the elephant in the room. Regardless of ambient humidity the engine itself is producing large quantities of water all the time. Previous engines used only high pressure EGR meaning the exhaust was diverted directly from the exhaust manifold to the intake. The new CRD motors divert some portion of the low pressure exhaust back to the turbo's intake to be re-compressed. Now this low pressure exhaust is extremely high in water content. How high? Think about the water vapor and even liquid water dripping from exhaust pipes all the time.

I've noticed my JSW TDI exhaust is more steamy in the cold weather compared to my previous TDIs. The exhaust is steamiest during the initial warmup right after a cold start. For owners who like to let the car idle for several minutes to try to warm it up before heading out, it's probably a bad thing to do because this is when the exhaust is the steamiest and the low pressure EGR may ON during this time. These cars don't warm up well in the winter by letting them idle because they are so damned efficient. They need to be DRIVEN to warm them up. Start it up and GO right away!

While driving during the intial warm up, I'm kind to it at first but then start getting on the power after the needle on the temp gauge starts showing some readings. I can see some steamy exhaust in my rearview mirror during the initial warmup and it's totally gone after things are up to temp.

I think I may look into a way to block off the IC in winter. On older TDIs this was easy to do with foam pipe insulation.

 

[El Dobro]

I've put about 4400mi on the car since the last time I opened the IC hoses, so I decided to check them again today. Since I removed, cleaned and replaced the hose seal on the driver's side the third time I had the hose off, it now has only some oil film on the outside and no drips. The passenger side hose still had some goop and a little bit of water in it, but it still hasn't topped the first time I removed the hose. That was the one that a big mess came pouring out.

If anyone of you haven't checked the hoses yet, I think it's well worth the effort to do so. From what I saw this time, I don't have any problem waiting 'till I change the oil in about 6000mi to check the hoses again, but I'm glad I did it.

 

[GraniteRooster]

I've put about 4400mi on the car since the last time I opened the IC hoses, so I decided to check them again today. Since I removed, cleaned and replaced the hose seal on the driver's side the third time I had the hose off, it now has only some oil film on the outside and no drips. The passenger side hose still had some goop and a little bit of water in it, but it still hasn't topped the first time I removed the hose. That was the one that a big mess came pouring out.

If anyone of you haven't checked the hoses yet, I think it's well worth the effort to do so. From what I saw this time, I don't have any problem waiting 'till I change the oil in about 6000mi to check the hoses again, but I'm glad I did it.

Thanks for checking and posting back. It seems like whether good or bad, a little goop and moisture or "goopy emulsion" is "normal". Anything that is watery should get mostly blown through with each use, and the sticky stuff stays - this makes sense.

What should not be normal is lots of watery fluid and ice. I hope to have the opportunity to check my hoses after next time I have a long run in humid freezing conditions, which has not happened in the last few days. I would love to catch the IC and pressure pipe with a coating of ice throughout......

 

[KraftwerkB6]

After reading all 10 of these pages I will bring in my car tomorrow night after work and take off the IC pipes to see what comes out.
Very intrested to see since i have about 13K miles right now, its damn cold the past couple weeks, and i let my car warm up for around 10-20 min every morning before i head to the shop.

I know in the past my older 2 audis both had oil/water mixture in the lower IC pipes, as well as prob 99.9% of 1.8T's driving around have some oil there, thats not a huge issue to myself. Now a cup of water is a different story all together.

Ill post pics tomorrow if there is anything.

 

[TDIFred]

is it usual or normal to warm these cars up for "10-12 minutes" in the morning?
I have heard others comment it is not good to idle them that long.
even in the minus 18C weather we had last week, mine fired up and off I went. my only starting malady was during warmer (+1C) temperatures and wet weather.

 

[KraftwerkB6]

Well it has not reached the low where I live, more around the 20 degrees F. Today's high was 35F.
Well I have never had any problem with letting any vehicle warm up in the morning given a 10-20 min warm up while I get ready. If its bad for the engine, I have not seen any problems, given a gas or my TDI.

I can see 10-20 seems long, and it is while just jumping in and taking off really should not hurt anything either, it would in fact get warmer quicker.

 

[PlaneJob]

20 minute idle on a cold engine? Does it even get up to operating temp during that 20 minutes? How's your fuel economy?