Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

[sgoldste01]

Last winter, I went through the entire season until March 2011 before I experienced this problem myself, and I haven't experienced it since. I just had the intercooler kit installed in October 2011, but others with the kit are still experiencing the problem, so I doubt my car is immune. Is my car more immune with the kit than without? I hope so, but there's no way to be certain. I have to believe the kit accomplishes something, but it's certainly not bullet-proof.

Anyway, my point is that just because your car hasn't experienced the problem doesn't mean that it won't. It simply means that you haven't had the required blend of weather and driving conditions necessary to reproduce the problem.

 

[740GLE]

Need PDF for TSB, ASAP, Please.

clicky and then download, sorry for the poor quality scan, i got it from another member here.

 

[bdisco]

Thanks, & Happy Holidays!

 

[flyboy320]

Funny how the TSB does not mention the 2012 models...

 

[740GLE]

Funny I don't see 2013's listed either!!!

It was updated in september (this copy was) how many 2012's were on the road when the change was initiated to go through the approval process? I'm sure the TSB number has been since updated to include anything running a CJAA engine code.

 

[Onefast66nova]

The problem is you don't want the water vapor to condense in the I/C.
This will happen when you first start the car on a cold morning.Then go
zipping down the hiway before the system had a chance to build some
heat into the system.My guess the fostheater would help.

I had the icing issue after my car was parked outside plugged in for almost 24 hours. I wish it did help things but not so much.

 

[MonsterTDI09]

I had the icing issue after my car was parked outside plugged in for almost 24 hours. I wish it did help things but not so much.

Not a ice proplem but a water I guess.Yes it does suck

 

[bmble b]

Good luck to you with your dealer, when I told my dealer here in Southeastern Connecticut about this happening twice to me last year, once about a month ago and it happened again yesterday, he told me, and I'm quoting his words "It's normal, all diesels run rough when you first start them when it's cold."

I'm guessing you go to Mystic VW? Weird because I go to VW of Old Saybrook, both under Valenti and they know all about it. Like I said they had two others in the same day as ours and they know all about the TSB.

Been told the parts are on back order. They drained ours and told us we could either keep the rental we had (that they paid for) which was a 2012 Nissan Versa until the parts came and they fixed it or we could just come take our car. My wife hated that Versa so we went and picked up our car. The service writer Matt (who is a great guy and has been nothing but awesome to us) kept the order as if the car was stuck there until they got the parts.

They said there were about 30 on backorder here in the Northeast and about 190 on backorder in Toronto.

 

[russo]

I took mine to the dealer yesterday after i had to problem on sunday. no codes means no tsb so i guess it does not throw codes if it happens. if it happens again im getting it towed but in the mean time i made my lower grill cover and will be problem free like i was last winter I hope. problem is i am only 2k miles from my 36k warranty so i figure i have to take care of this myself unless there is a recall.

 

[sgoldste01]

Sadly, post #1344 in this thread is from a guy who had an intercooler situation even though he had blocked his lower grill.

 

[gumaku1]

OK, the only way to get this solved is to start adding all of our complaints on the NHTSA ODI website, that way our comments will be heard and we will hopefully get some action from VW.

Go to here and file your complaints if you believe intercooler icing needs more proactive action by VW for it's customers...

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

 

[bmble b]

I took mine to the dealer yesterday after i had to problem on sunday. no codes means no tsb so i guess it does not throw codes if it happens. if it happens again im getting it towed but in the mean time i made my lower grill cover and will be problem free like i was last winter I hope. problem is i am only 2k miles from my 36k warranty so i figure i have to take care of this myself unless there is a recall.

It can throw codes sometimes. Misfire codes mostly.

I would show your dealership the TSB linked above here. Also if the parts are on backorder make sure they document this problem before your warranty ends. I would say as long as they knew it was a problem they should cover it. It's not your fault they took so long to come up with a solution.

 

[beadlock]

a "no start" problem just happened to me, wouldn't crank over at all. thought it might be the battery because i haven't been driving the car much due to ankle surgery(clutch). showed symptoms like everybody else, eventually started and ran like crap for a bit, then normal.
the car has been at the dealer for 2 days now with no update, service guy said 1, maybe 2 days to fix when i dropped it off.

i understand when my 20 year old diesel ford is hard to start, but when my 2010 tdi with 20k on it won't start, completely unacceptable.

 

[DZL_Damon]

Sadly, post #1344 in this thread is from a guy who had an intercooler situation even though he had blocked his lower grill.

My lower grill was blocked off when it happened on I think Monday. Happened to the woman that works with me that also has an 09 TDi. I got hers going, then mine. Both of us have frothy/watery build up under our oil caps now. Sweet...

 

[sgoldste01]

Both of us have frothy/watery build up under our oil caps now. Sweet...

Hmmm, I'm trying to figure out how water would get into the oil. The intercooler moisture gets injected into the cylinders, right? So how'd it get into the oil? Is water getting past the rings?

 

[nicklockard]

Hmmm, I'm trying to figure out how water would get into the oil. The intercooler moisture gets injected into the cylinders, right? So how'd it get into the oil? Is water getting past the rings?

Blow by gases. They're exacerbated by cold engines when the rings have not yet expanded to fully seal the cylinders.

PS: it's beginning to look like this issue is almost exclusive to the Northeastern region or a certain climate band.

 

[sgoldste01]

Blow by gases. They're exacerbated by cold engines when the rings have not yet expanded to fully seal the cylinders.

OK, and then does that water boil out of the oil once the car gets running again and reaches normal running temps? Does the oil loose its lubricating qualities?

As for only happening in certain climate bands, well that makes sense. This is a climate-condition problem. So it will only happen where the appropriate (or inappropriate, depending on how you look at it) climate conditions exist.

 

[GraniteRooster]

PS: it's beginning to look like this issue is almost exclusive to the Northeastern region or a certain climate band.

I agree that it happens in certain climate conditions, and that New England seems to have these conditions often. We have also seen widespread issues in Northern midwest and mountain west (US/Canada Rockies). I think "snow belts" in general are at risk - I would disagree that New England got the exclusive on this one...

My car shows signs of water very consistently when outside temps are 10-20F for a long run following by parking it and warming through freezing. I rarely (if ever?) have trouble above 20F.

 

[nicklockard]

OK, and then does that water boil out of the oil once the car gets running again and reaches normal running temps? Does the oil loose its lubricating qualities?

As for only happening in certain climate bands, well that makes sense. This is a climate-condition problem. So it will only happen where the appropriate (or inappropriate, depending on how you look at it) climate conditions exist.

Yes. Oils are formulated to handle presence of a little water fine. But if there's more than a little for extended time, the oil foams up and it's performance degrades, as I understand it.

 

[UberVW_TDI]

I live in Austin. Had the issue last winter. Drained ~12 oz of water out of the intercooler after car started and immediately stopped one morning. Conditions were ~18F the day prior. Car was parked in my warm garage that night.

GraniteRooster, are you the only one still having this issue even after thc IC kit install? I haven't had the kit installed yet. I wanted to wait to see if it fixed the issue or caused other issues?

Love our TDIs but disappointed about this cold weather issue.

 

[Blue Putter]

Had a Rough Start Today with Kit

I had a rough start today after parking indoors for about 3 hours just outside Toronto. The temperature was -8C this morning when I drove in (45 min mostly highway speeds). I assume it must have iced up during the drive and then thawed while parked indoors. It started easily and then started to stumble and misfire as I tried to accelerate. I let it idle for a bit and then tried to accelerate again at which point it cleared up. I'm concerned about hydrolock when this happens. I'd rather a no start situation than a start and hydrolock as a result due to water injestion.
The dealer performed the TSB kit install last Spring. I'll keep an eye on it and report it on my next visit for the fuel line recall. At least I'll have it documented with them that it occurred even after the kit was installed.

 

[sgoldste01]

If I understand the mechanics correctly, the fact that you got it running means that you can't have a hydrolock situation. The other active thread discussing what people initially thought were dead batteries, but then realized it was the intercooler, describes a car that is hydrolocked.

I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong, or elaborate if I'm right.

 

[tcp_ip_dude]

If I understand the mechanics correctly, the fact that you got it running means that you can't have a hydrolock situation. The other active thread discussing what people initially thought were dead batteries, but then realized it was the intercooler, describes a car that is hydrolocked.

I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong, or elaborate if I'm right.

all it takes is between 1-2 ounces of water to hydrolock a cylinder. You crank the engine and at idle you are creating low air velocity and volume through the intake ducting, if the duct is only partially filled with ice melt which will accumulate at the lowest points, low air volume may pass just fine, but then begin to accelerate, increasing that air velocity and volume to a point where it begins to pick up the water from the ice melt that has accumulated in those low points and bam, you get a slug of water.

Given the low air flow, starting and idling will not necessarily be a problem except in extreme cases where the lowest points in the ducting are completely filled with ice melt. IMHO of course.

 

[Blue Putter]

During the rough idle phase it's possible that there is still enough water in the intercooler to be ingested in the engine and cause a hydrolock condition in one or more cylinders that could damage valves or piston or both at which point the engine would probably cease to run shortly after. I would call that as being caused by a hydrolock.
In my thinking when the engine doesn't crank its caused by a hydrolock but because the engine really didn't get going its more likely no damage is done. In the situation where a hydrolock is caused by larger ingestion of liquid while the engine is running such that there is a hydrolock then this will likely cause significant damage. We've seen that occur when there is a turbo failure and large quantities of oil gets injested in the engine causing a hydrolock and resulting similar damage.
So yes with the engine idling and there is water being ingested there is a risk of hydrolock depending on how much water is in the intercooler.

 

[eddif]

There are a huge number of situations that vary with what is going on in an individual car and area.​

1.. No water problem.​

2..Engine locked by water on top of piston and the engine will not turn over.
3..The rod bends and the hydrolock is not complete (small minor bend to severe bend).
4..Hammer that does not lock engine or bend rod.

5..Hammer that blows head gasket, bends rods, cracks pistons, and all sorts of things (right now rare, but how many slight bends result in severe problems after 100 (?) water problem starts?
6..Other​

I think we should discuss when to remove water from the low point of the intake tract, and seek to keep the water / frost out of the intake system.

When water might best be removed​

1..Shortly after parking the car after a trip (? how long). The heat from the radiator, engine compartment thaws the intercooler and the water trickles into the low point but has not frozen yet (garage or outside ?)
2..Install a temperature sensor in the low point and drain when the temp is above freezing (fitted with alarm?).

Factors that might effect drain​

1..Decide how flat to park car to get the best drain (parked on slope with front, rear, driver side, passenger side or combination (high low).
2..Decide on the worst parking situation.

Coming up with a strange parking angle to allow engine RPM to remove water sounds like a poor option (I will mention it anyway).

I think discussing the draining of water is better than discussing the RPM to remove water. Removing water through the cylinders sounds mighty dangerous to engine components. I am sorry we have to discuss draining the water, but denial of the problem does not seem to work.

The other option is still discussing the EGR cooler area and the low pressure EGR gas / water / moisture flow. Sorry we have to evaluate the whole operation and possibly re-design the engine in that area.

We just need to discuss the problems and solutions and not look to others as the only sources for possible patches.

I totally realize I am a shadetree, jerk from Mississippi. I realize that there are those who have more energy and drive than I might have. Facing a $10,000 (?) complete engine replacement might motivate some to do beyond what they usually do.

Finally the larger, public TDI CR crowd is finding the tdiclub. Many are looking for solutions (not just hearing the problem). I know a bolt in simple solution would be nice, but the extent of the situations that cause the problems will require (? ? ?).

eddif

 

[sgoldste01]

I just don't see this as being a problem that I (or most anyone else) is willing to do anything about proactively (with the exception of getting the intercooler kit installed, which is something I had done proactively back in October before it got cold outside). There is just no way I'm going to say, "Well, it was below freezing during my drive into work this AM, but now it's above freezing as I'm getting out of work this PM, so I guess I'll throw my overalls on and my jack out and see if there's anything to drain from the intercooler right here in my office parking lot."

No...freakin'...way. If she starts, then she starts. If she doesn't start, then she gets towed. Plain and simple. I don't plan to do anything more aggressive about this situation than that.

However, like I said, I did have the kit installed. And if someone convinced me that blocking part of the grill would help, I'd do that proactively too (although we're hearing on this thread of people with blocked grills who still have the problem, just as we've heard of people with the kit who still have the problem). I'm willing to take actions to prevent the build-up of water (kit, grill blocking, disconnecting a tube in the engine compartment to draw warm air into the intercooler, etc.) if they are proven to be effective actions.

But I'm not going to crawl under my car 2x/week (or whatever) whenever I suspect the weather conditions might have caused a problem. I'm going to turn the key and see what happens. I'm sure I speak for 99% of CR TDI owners when I say this.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

It's not just "icing" that is happening here. The intercooler can and will condense water inside itself any time the intercooler temperature is below the dewpoint of the compressed air that is passing through it. This condensed water just happens to turn into ice when the intercooler is below freezing. It is quite possible for the intercooler to condense water even when it isn't below freezing, just like your A/C evaporator.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

It's not just "icing" that is happening here. The intercooler can and will condense water inside itself any time the intercooler temperature is below the dewpoint of the compressed air that is passing through it. This condensed water just happens to turn into ice when the intercooler is below freezing. It is quite possible for the intercooler to condense water even when it isn't below freezing, just like your A/C evaporator.

I suspect though that the condensation doesn't accumulate due to the airflow through the piping unless it freezes. It passes through as water vapour or water mist and doesn't get a chance to accumulate. When the condensate freezes up in below freezing or near freezing conditions (near freezing, the pressure drop might be enough to cause ice buildup just like carb ice in a piston aircraft engine), a significant volume of water builds up and freezes into a chunk of ice. When that ice melts, a big slug is sucked through.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Ok, I get that. I would, however, expect that if you drove with the intercooler building ice for too long (long road trip?), you would eventually starve the engine of air. Anyone had this happen yet?

 

[PlaneCrazy]

Ok, I get that. I would, however, expect that if you drove with the intercooler building ice for too long (long road trip?), you would eventually starve the engine of air. Anyone had this happen yet?

Not that we've heard yet. I wonder if the pipe actually completely clogs or ice just builds up on the sides restricting the opening? It wouldn't be a total power loss but it probably would cause some loss of power.

When the ice melts, the water probably pools at the lowest point in the system and it's from that which a slug is sucked in stuffing the engine.

I drove last night on a longish (40 km) drive at -20C to head to midnight Mass at a local abbey (Gregorian chant!), and the car didn't seem particularly peppy, in 6th at 90 km/h it was struggling up fairly easy grades and needed a downshift to 5th. So maybe that's what we're seeing. Normally in the summer the same road is never an issue in 6th at 90.

Interestingly when passing through a village at 40-50 km/h the temp dropped off 90C significantly. I had plugged the car in yesterday evening before driving it, but it still took a good 10 km to reach operating temp, and then the temp fell off going through the village.

Fuel consumption also sucked but that's to be expected in deep cold; about 6-6.5 L/100 km.