Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

billb603

New member
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Location
NH
TDI
2010 Jetta
Just had the new kit put on my TDI (bravely I said yes to being the first one done). No noticeable change in performance although it does seem to be a little noisier than before. Could be my imagination. Mileage still great. My daughter had a bad start one time this winter and one rough running episode. No water in her intercooler lines when they checked but she was also called by our dealer to put the kit on and is scheduled to do so in a week or so. Hopefully the fix will fix my two freezeups and one tow last winter. Both our cars are 2010 TDI Jettas. Mine is a manual and hers is an automatic. As an aside since the warmer weather I have gotten as high as 56.2 mpg on my 36 mile commute and averaging 48.2 mpg over the last 3 months.
 
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eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
On another thread I read about a general request for the intercooler modification kits be installed in snowy areas.

There may be a need for the kits (as is) to be installed in those areas and the same kit or modified kits to be installed in other areas.

There seem to be a great number of different ways water gets in the intercooler piping.

1..Frost inside the system that can accumulate till air is cut off. Or frost that melts and freezes to form an ice blockage to cut off air flow causing a no start. Or ice / frost that thaws to form water for ingestion that can cause hydrolock (severe or minor).
2..Dew point water formation that collects in times of low air velocity flow (or frost and dew point water). Folks are describing water in temps that are above freezing. Water in the piping can freeze giving all the conditions in #1 above.

Hydrolock can be just at starting speeds and may even stop the car from starting, but not actually bend rods, damage bearings, or damage head gaskets (varies). Hydrolock forces can also happen when the engine is running that can be just on the verge of causing problems (minor bang), or enough water to actually bend rods etc.

I suggest a continued request for all cars to be fitted with the kits. If you drive into the snow area to visit relatives you may need the kit. Even if you never see much freezing weather the sensors may be programmed to help dew point water prevention. The computer could start the process above freezing and actually may be doing this now (anyone know the temps the sensors are set for?).

Any stall, no re-start, limp mode, total engine failure, etc (on the road), is a safety issue.

eddif
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2017 Alltrack SE; Totaled 2015 Passat SEL, BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat SE w/ Nav,
Just had the new kit put on my TDI (bravely I said yes to being the first one done). No noticeable change in performance although it does seem to be a little noisier than before. Could be my imagination. Mileage still great. My daughter had a bad start one time this winter and one rough running episode. No water in her intercooler lines when they checked but she was also called by our dealer to put the kit on and is scheduled to do so in a week or so. Hopefully the fix will fix my two freezeups and one tow last winter. Both our cars are 2010 TDI Jettas. Mine is a manual and hers is an automatic. As an aside since the warmer weather I have gotten as high as 56.2 mpg on my 36 mile commute and averaging 48.2 mpg over the last 3 months.
What dealer? Baranger was going to notify me of a solution to this issue, but that was back in December. I'm waiting to see how this works out for other people before calling them up and saying *** where's my upgrade.
 

Samcar222

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2010 Salsa Red JSW TDI
My 20k service is a week or two away, so I will ask the tech about this TSB (armed with TSB numbers etc), how many they have done (if any), requirements to get it put on (upstate NY should count.. anyone from Rochester speak up :D :D), as well as any ramifications of having the kit put on (lowered FE, etc).
 

Absolute Diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Location
USA
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI DSG (SOLD)
Are TSB's free to install even after your warranty is up? I live in PA and have only been through 1 winter so far (haven't experienced this problem). Should I take it in before warranty expires?
 

GraniteRooster

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Location
Upper Valley NH
TDI
'12 JSW 6MT
I would definitely have it installed before your warranty is up - therefore one less excuse for VW to give you. I got mine installed long before winter in case there is a shortage of parts/time as winter approaches, and my warranty is up soon. I think every CR owner should be asking to have this installed now - no sense waiting until just before winter. This topic should be stickied to remind folks.

Does anyone know if the latest 2011's are shipping with this IC system? Can a new 2011 owner comment on presence/absence of the intake elbow with sensor visible from topside of your brand-new engine??
 

sgoldste01

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Location
Webster, NY
TDI
None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
Can you really just ask for it? I thought the dealer wouldn't install it without documented starting problems. I live in Rochester, NY, and did have a hard start this past spring. But it did eventually start, so it never made it to the dealer. The next day I checked my intercooler hoses, and didn't see much of anything.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
Can you really just ask for it? I thought the dealer wouldn't install it without documented starting problems. I live in Rochester, NY, and did have a hard start this past spring. But it did eventually start, so it never made it to the dealer. The next day I checked my intercooler hoses, and didn't see much of anything.
Water comes---then goes. Guess where it goes? Through the engine! While you can .. ask for it.

The sun-roof drain repair was available for a limited time, and this may be the same deal. Who knows for sure?

The more people who have the kits installed, the better the chance of finding out how they work.

eddif
 

UberVW_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2010 Golf Variant TDI
I think have reconciled my previous questions. My car is having its new IC kit installed this AM. The parts kit has:

1) New IC with vacuum operated flap valve on the inlet end

2) New elbow with sensor - round brass plug about 3/8", dia that sticks through the elbow wall into the airstream about 3/8-1/2". Body of sensor has (3) air lines labeled "ATM", "VAC" and "OUT". I did not see three tiny holes drilled in the plug, nor is it shaped correctly for a Pitot tube. Seems like a temp probe/actuator to me - no visible sensor orifices machined into the brass, no electrical connections.

3) hoses to connect 1) and 2) above with each other and the rest of the car.

The IC has a vacuum operated flap on the inlet that you can hear metal-on-metal "clank" when it closes against internal passages in the casting of the aluminum casting of the IC inlet diffuser.

Based on these observations, my guess is the brass plug is a temperature sensor/actuator, that actuates a mixing valve and blends "VAC" and "ATM" as required to produce "OUT" that is then fed to the IC flap regulator to control position and cooling airflow through the IC based on temperature. You cant see the flap inside the IC from the outside, but from the location of the actuator and the nature of the "clank" - I guess that the plate blocks off about the the upper 2/3-3/4 of the IC when closed, and leaves the bottom 1/4-1/3 open and free flowing.

I apologize that I did not take pictures - perhaps I will take some once installed to show final installation, and maybe someone else can take pics of the hardware before their kit is installed.

GraniteRooster,
Thanks for the update / information.
Here are some pictures of the kit I took at the local VW dealership.

My dealership didn't have any details about how the kit worked. They just said, VW told them to install this kit on my car. Nice.
Suffice to say, I wasn't totally ready to let them install this on my car. At least not until we find out what VW came up with.

I didn't realized the IC had an internal flap that controls charge air routing.

One question I've got is where does the electrical sensor / switch in picture #2 go?










 
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740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2017 Alltrack SE; Totaled 2015 Passat SEL, BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat SE w/ Nav,
maybe on the IC itself to monitor temps in the IC? If the temps of the IC are too cold, bam! shut comes the flapper.
 

sgoldste01

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Location
Webster, NY
TDI
None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
Of course.

The kit was issued to fix a design flaw.
Well, I asked for it by speaking (over the phone) to the service manager this past Monday. He said he'd call VW for me to see if he can get the kit authorized for me, even though I haven't brought my car in with the problem (I told him that I almost couldn't get my car started last March, but was eventually able to do so, which is why I'm asking for the kit even though the car was never brought in).

Since Monday, I've left a couple of voicemail messages for him checking on status, but haven't heard anything yet. I'm not holding my breath.

Dorschel VW in Henrietta, are you listening?
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
Well, the bottom line is that when a kit is issued to fix a design flaw, one that obviously affects all of the cars because they all have the same design, it's impossible to justify playing favorites by only giving it to certain people.

It's also impossible to justify waiting for big problems to happen before fixing the problem. Prevention is more rational when there is a known design flaw, one that VW has clearly acknowledged by issuing this kit.
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
Well, the bottom line is that when a kit is issued to fix a design flaw, one that obviously affects all of the cars because they all have the same design, it's impossible to justify playing favorites by only giving it to certain people.

It's also impossible to justify waiting for big problems to happen before fixing the problem. Prevention is more rational when there is a known design flaw, one that VW has clearly acknowledged by issuing this kit.

The only people I can see any reason for denying are those out of warranty. That's a separate issue and I am not saying the denial is sound. But, it's the only one that has any possibility of being logical.
 

sgoldste01

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Location
Webster, NY
TDI
None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
I'll let you know if the service manager, and whoever at VW he's trying to get authorization from, agrees with you. I certainly agree with you, but that doesn't mean much.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
The other thing is, VW may not have the ability to fully test this kit until winter, so they're getting it out on a limited basis, with customers that they can keep tabs on.

Then, once this winter passes, and they get feedback on whether it worked, they can push it out to everyone, or do another update.
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
The other thing is, VW may not have the ability to fully test this kit until winter, so they're getting it out on a limited basis, with customers that they can keep tabs on.

Then, once this winter passes, and they get feedback on whether it worked, they can push it out to everyone, or do another update.
That's not an acceptable standard of behavior to me. It's one thing to do internal testing and quite another to offer repair kits to regular consumers. Telling people that they, rather than other buyers, should be subjected to further worry about potential problems stemming from the design flaw, and potential problems from the design flaw is just not good business. It's also unacceptable to force people to have serious problems before they can get a remedy. VW has acknowledged that there is a design flaw by issuing this kit. Even if it's a "beta", customers should have the option of having it put in.
 
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eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
The other thing is, VW may not have the ability to fully test this kit until winter, so they're getting it out on a limited basis, with customers that they can keep tabs on.

Then, once this winter passes, and they get feedback on whether it worked, they can push it out to everyone, or do another update.
This statement is very difficult to respond to. We also need to ask for the most kits possible so we can get the best answers possible. If we dope around and wait, then more and more folks will be out of warranty and never get a kit.

1..The kit has probably been in development over a winter period. It has probably seen a winter in their testing.
2..The North and south pole exist and there places that have glaciers all year long.
3..You can set up the conditions to test a theory without the cars themselves being there. (I do agree that something not expected can come up in physical whole car use-----The cars in production turned up the problem).
4..After more of the parameters that cause the situation are known, a computer program can be set up to vary known variables and thus predict the outcomes. These programs are not perfect, but they come a lot closer to helping than they once did.

I kind of go with #1. VW was telling there was a fix coming while it was still cold weather. The fix as sent out may not be perfect, but I imagine that the software can be modified to use the hardware in new innovative ways.

I still think an emergency physical drain would help. I also think a more definate hot air warm up loop would help. However, there are issues with my thoughts, and I understand that: it is not simple to do what I propose.

If VW will not put the kits out there for everyone in a timely manner; IMHO there are going to be a lot of slightly bent rods, blown or seeping head gaskets, and issues we do not even know about yet. The problems with the HPFPs needs a retroactive kit also. If failure percentages go up, and I believe they will, there will be more pressure to get it done. On the other hand, bean counters make decisions out of my little limited life box I think in.

eddif
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2017 Alltrack SE; Totaled 2015 Passat SEL, BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat SE w/ Nav,
I'd say anyone who gets flack for installing the TSB, toss copious amounts of water in the their IC then fire her up, bend rods, bend a valve, toast the engine then have VW flip the tab on a whole new engine. They have a known issue that causes this, with a known fix, it's in their best intrest to get these completed if they don't they are the ones who suffer the headaches after.

BTW the real trick with this issue isn't that you won't see this happen at -20 sub artic temps. It's a rare blend of conditions that build up the ice and a giant thaw that causes it.
 

jchall

Active member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Location
Mystic, CT
TDI
2010 VW Jetta TDI
More BS from my local dealer!!

On two occasions this past winter I had a rough start/idle situation on start-up. It eventuallty cleared up and I was able to make it to work on those occasions. I could have made it in anyways since I do have another vehicle to drive, which may have contributed to the problem. I drove my truck on snowy days since it is a 1996 red F250 4wd, compared to my 2010 White Gold Metalic Jetta, it shows up more on snowy days and handles the snow a little better. The car sat for a day or 2 during the snow storms and on both occasions after not running when it did snow I had the rough starts.

When I brought my car in for the 3 month courtesy check in February 2011, I told the service manager about the problem, who incidentally "never heard of that before", but he documented it so if there were problems in the future there would be a record of it. I just called to see if I qualified for the tsb and was told that since the car wasn't towed in they couldn't confirm that there was water in the intercooler so I wasn't elegible forthe TSB, however I could have it installled at my own expense.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??

VW SOP: Deny, Deny, Deny!!
 

sgoldste01

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Location
Webster, NY
TDI
None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
This is what I'm afraid is going to happen to me. I requested this kit from my service manager (Mike Schulaka [spelling?] at Dorschel VW) on Monday, and still haven't heard from him as to whether or not VW will approve this service on my 2010 Golf (I too didn't have it towed, but instead cranked on the starter until it finally started). I've placed three follow-up calls, but still no word.

I'm tempted to call the other VW dealer in my area (Vincent VW) and bribe them by offering all of my future service business if they'll install this kit under warranty. I think Mark Jenkins is the Service Manager there. Might have to call him next week....
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
If a lot of folks do not want to buy the intercooler kit at their own expense, does that not place some into discussing a $150.00 (?) USD fix.​
And​
Is not a water / slop drain and a hair dryer not the $150.00 (?) fix? LOL

Winter is rapidly heading our way. The PDs cams, and the CRs HPFPs seem do better in winter. The CRs intercooler icing does better in summer.

Now is the time to discuss what an owner can do. (???)

eddif​
 

OldManWinter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Location
Winnipeg, MB
TDI
Golf Wagon 2010
BTW the real trick with this issue isn't that you won't see this happen at -20 sub artic temps. It's a rare blend of conditions that build up the ice and a giant thaw that causes it.

My experience it the exact oppsite of what you wrote here.

I was in the mountains and it was warm, and humid, about 0-3c When I drove down into Calgary it was -20c and after about an hour of driving, we'd jsut passed through Calgary it car went into limp mode and we had to get towed to teh dealership where they thawed and drained the IC.
 

Maine12

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Location
Maine
TDI
09 Jetta TDI 6M-sold
Does the A3 TDI have the same issue with Icing in the Intercooler (since it is the same engine design don't know why it would not) and any information on the current JSWs being sold are they getting the updated fix.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2017 Alltrack SE; Totaled 2015 Passat SEL, BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat SE w/ Nav,
My experience it the exact oppsite of what you wrote here.

I was in the mountains and it was warm, and humid, about 0-3c When I drove down into Calgary it was -20c and after about an hour of driving, we'd jsut passed through Calgary it car went into limp mode and we had to get towed to teh dealership where they thawed and drained the IC.
Well each case is different, I think the biggest common factor is that you were right around the freezing temps before this happened. I imagine you were probably driving on the highway pretty steady state? that steady state in that right condition will build up more and more ice. Most of us don't ice it up to stall and throw a MIL but have the car sit and warm up to where everything thaws for trouble at the restart.
 

sgoldste01

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Location
Webster, NY
TDI
None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
Well, getting this kit installed on my 2010 TDI isn't going so well. I got the service manager (Mike Szlachetka at Dorschel VW in Rochester) on the phone today. He said that I could schedule the appointment. So I got excited that everything was going to be OK. Then I asked, "So you're going to have all the parts in stock when my car gets there?"

He says, "What parts? This intercooler TSB is just to check for a sticky valve." I said no, there are quite a few parts, including a whole new radiator.

So I got his email address, and sent him a PDF showing the pictures of the kit from this thread. He said that I could send him this info, but that he's only authorized to do the work that VW okays, and that a big kit isn't part of the plan.

If he replies to my email, I'll post what he says. But I'm confident that my pics of the kit aren't going to carry any weight with him.

Any suggestions on how I should proceed?
 
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