Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

740GLE

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Aug 19, 2009
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NH
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2017 Alltrack SE; Totaled 2015 Passat SEL, BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat SE w/ Nav,
(WILD GUESS)It's probably a sensor to detect water in the bottom of the IC hose, and it'll prevent a start up w/ water ingestion. The real big fix is in how the IC itself is built and internally plumbed that'll prevent ice to form in the first place. It'd be interesting to compare the two ICs.
 

B25guy

Active member
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Jun 22, 2010
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Yakima, WA
TDI
'10 JSW 3-pedal. '07 Dodge Cummins, '04 Caterpillar 420D IT, 43' Blue Bird Wanderlodge DP
That was exactly my first thought, but the sensor is not located at the very bottom of the hose and in order for enough ice/water to form to reach the sensor and trigger whatever, that would be way too late. The sensor appears to be at about the 4 o'clock position once the hose is installed...I'll verify once I get the car back today. What further convinces me it is not a water level sensor is I thought that if it did prevent starting, how would the water then get out or drain?, tow back to the dealer?...so a water detection approach was less likely.

I'm also guessing that the new i/c has a baffle/channeling that will prevent any remaining moisture-laden air to simply go from right to left and perhaps uses a centrifugal airflow of some sort to extract the trace liquid and keep it from being gulped into the engine should the sensor/LP-EGR not be perfectly correlated/tuned and it continues to condense, freeze then thaws. The current i/c appears to allow melted ice to pool at the bottom and simply be sucked across and into the combustion chamber upon start. I'm picturing an internal reservoir that will collect any melt and then once operating temps are reached and sufficiently warm/hot/drier air is flowing to pick up the moisture in a harmless mist to evaporate it.

Again, just educated guesses here so I'll try to talk to the mechanic this afternoon to add more factual information if I can.

Marc
 
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MayorDJQ

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Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Location
Williamstown, Mass
TDI
'10 Golf 2dr 6m, sold.
I dropped my JSW off yesterday for the kit installation and asked to see the parts. I was particularly interested in the new elbow with the fitting in it. As best I could tell there appears to be a brass-colored sensor with tiny holes protruding in the airstream with three vacuum line connections on the outside. I'm going to guess it is a moisture or vapor sensor and not a water sensor per se (didn't have two probes that would provide a closed circuit should water pool in that location as in what I had in my CTD fuel filter). So my thinking is that it will sense the moisture in the air going into the i/c and if it is too much, alter the LP-EGR somehow. I don't believe it is a dump valve of any sort.
Sorry, can't provide any additional pictures or intel.

Service guy said they did one other JSW the week before...and this is the only two he knows about in our area.

Marc
Did you have a problem with water/sludge/icing during the winter? If so, did they call you back in for the fix or did you have to ask for it? Warranty covered it? Recall?
 

B25guy

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Jun 22, 2010
Location
Yakima, WA
TDI
'10 JSW 3-pedal. '07 Dodge Cummins, '04 Caterpillar 420D IT, 43' Blue Bird Wanderlodge DP
I did have a "no start" in my garage this past Feb. after a thaw and ended up driving it into the dealer after if finally started. First time they said no codes, no foul, nothing they can do. I then did some research on this forum and discovered I quite possibly had a slug of water. I took it back to the dealer and asked them to check it out...sure enough, water and ice sitting right inside the i/c and hose...lots of it. They drained it and sent me on my way. I contacted VWoA and effectively filed a formal complaint. When I saw the post last week that a part had been released, I called my service manager to see if they were doing anything about my car. She said that the part was on order and that I was one of 40 cars/VIN that will get this fix immediately (ostensibly because I had a documented "no start" with visible water/ice upon inspection).
So not sure if I beat them to it or they were going to call me...won't know but this is completely covered and I don't know whether it is recall or warranty.
P.S. they provided me a '11 Jetta gasser automatic..it was painfully obvious just pulling out of the dealership why I chose a JSW!
Marc
 

sgoldste01

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Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Location
Webster, NY
TDI
None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
Do a search here for "pipe insulation" it's a common mod for the mk4's in canada, can't really beat it for $10
Does anyone have a photo of this pipe insulation mod? I see text about it, but would like to see a photo of exactly where/how this insulation is installed.

Thanks,

Steve
 

Blue Putter

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Joined
Apr 4, 2002
Location
Orangeville, ON, Canada
TDI
2000 Golf TDI GLS, 2010 Golf Wagon TDI Highline, 2006 Jetta TDI (her's)
Had mine done yesterday since I was on the list after a no-start and tow to the dealer this winter. Told they are only doing this for cars that experienced the problem. They said the setup is a new intercooler, a temp probe and an actuator with flaps to close off the airflow to lower part of the intercooler. Seems under "predetermined temperature conditions blocking off a part of the intercooler reduces the possibility of ice formation." This seems to be just a preventative measure. I don't think there is anything to detect moisture accumulation and prevent a detremental startup. There was an ECM update as well which would make sense if it was related since something has to tell the actuator when to move. But they suggested that these updates are routine from time to time and wasn't related. Would be interested to see if anyone gets this done without an ECM update. I wouldn't be surprised if all it does is activate the flaps when temperatures drop close to freezing and below.

So looks like lots of folks on the right track here with the suggestion to block parts of the intercooler in the winter.
 

dweisel

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Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
So, a chosen few get the fix and get to be guinea pigs for VW to see if it works or not. Hopefully it will. Seems to me that the intercooler needs a redesign to function properly in all temperature ranges without problems.
 

flylow2

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Location
Hillsborough, NJ
TDI
2010 White Gold JSW TDI 6M (build date 23Feb10)
VW is unlikely to do anything about this issue as it does not appear to be widespread. I went in for my 30K service several weeks ago and complained about 2 rough starts in the winter that were likely the result of this issue. The dealer was aware of the issue but said they said the area is not seeing problems. By problems, this would likely be no starts or damaged engines by view of VW. I simply wanted to get this in the record for my car just in case the engine does hydrolock at some point in the future, I have a chance of getting VW to own it post warranty.

The kit they have is to address known problem cars and is probably a bit of a science project for them to be able to fix their design for new cars coming off the line. We likely own the current bad design.
 

MonsterTDI09

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
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Jul 3, 2009
Location
NoVa/NJ
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2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
VW changed the 2.0L TDI emission system starting with the 2012 Passat TDI.

That is because of the weight of the car, they have add blue injection.I think it still has DMF
 

MayorDJQ

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Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Location
Williamstown, Mass
TDI
'10 Golf 2dr 6m, sold.
So, a chosen few get the fix and get to be guinea pigs for VW to see if it works or not. Hopefully it will. Seems to me that the intercooler needs a redesign to function properly in all temperature ranges without problems.
How is the I/C not functioning properly? It's job is to cool the charge air, which it is doing. The laws of physics and chemistry are causing the water problems.

In the end the fix for this will probably be a combination of hardware & software.
 

B25guy

Active member
Joined
Jun 22, 2010
Location
Yakima, WA
TDI
'10 JSW 3-pedal. '07 Dodge Cummins, '04 Caterpillar 420D IT, 43' Blue Bird Wanderlodge DP
FWIW, I had a chance to look at the installed kit...the only thing I can see is that the new elbow with the sensor is installed right before intake plenum, so clearly not a water/moisture accumulation sensor. The three vacuum lines make their way up to other vacuum lines in various sensors on the air just entering the turbo. Sorry can't be more specific but I don't readily recognize much on this engine.

So far, mileage is the same as before and no adverse behavior to mention. They also did the 31H ECM flash that was supposed to address (amongst others) low RPM stalling...my wife stalled it this past weekend, so must not have been anything very dramatic, it still idles at 800 dead on. It may also have fixed the ~1900 RPM hiccup in the first 5 minutes of driving...I'll be trying to verify this throughout the week.

Now I wait till winter, but I think I'll pull my i/c hoses off regularly once it gets cold to see how much, if any, water accumulates.

Marc
 

El Dobro

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Feb 21, 2006
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NJ
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2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
How is the new intercooler different?
 

B25guy

Active member
Joined
Jun 22, 2010
Location
Yakima, WA
TDI
'10 JSW 3-pedal. '07 Dodge Cummins, '04 Caterpillar 420D IT, 43' Blue Bird Wanderlodge DP
From what I saw of the new i/c in the box, nothing...it looked fairly generic with no louvers or linkage of any kind. If there is any changes, they must be largely inside for routing of the air flow, etc. Once installed in the car, from what I can see anyway, there is nothing remarkable about the new one.

Marc
 

gumaku1

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2010
Location
Ohio
TDI
2010 Sportwagen TDI - DSG
There has to be somthing unique about the new intercooler, VW would not just install a new intercooler in the "cold weather kit" if it didn't have a meaning. When can someone take pictures of old vs. new for all parts of the cold weather kit, we all want to know more....
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
VW is unlikely to do anything about this issue as it does not appear to be widespread. I went in for my 30K service several weeks ago and complained about 2 rough starts in the winter that were likely the result of this issue. The dealer was aware of the issue but said they said the area is not seeing problems. By problems, this would likely be no starts or damaged engines by view of VW. I simply wanted to get this in the record for my car just in case the engine does hydrolock at some point in the future, I have a chance of getting VW to own it post warranty.

The kit they have is to address known problem cars and is probably a bit of a science project for them to be able to fix their design for new cars coming off the line. We likely own the current bad design.
So will people meet resistance if they ask their dealer to put in the new intercooler to avoid problems? It seems illogical to tell people to wait until they have a serious problem before something can be done about it.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2017 Alltrack SE; Totaled 2015 Passat SEL, BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat SE w/ Nav,
I imagine if you've documented this issue with the dealer, they find symptoms (wattery oily hose) then it's up to corporate to buy off on it.

If you've had your car towed to the dealer on more than one occasion because of this, i can't imagine they wouldn't install the kit.

But for VW to blindly issue the kit to everyone who knows about it and they just want to cover their butts, i don't think they will, as there are so many cars on the road that A) haven't had this issue, B) haven't seen the weather that causes it, C) don't operate the car in a way that this issue would even be a problem.
 

kenford

Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2010
Location
Canada
TDI
2010 Jetta
Had the fix for this issue installed on my Jetta yesterday. Took almost 7 hours. No noticeable differences in the way the car runs. Time will tell. Looking at a copy of the TSB install instructions have a better idea of what the new elbow is.
The piece coming out of the side is a temperature switch with 2 nipples, one for a ventilation hose to the air cleaner, another to a vacuum source and the larger fitting for a hose to the charge air cooler regulator flap.
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
I imagine if you've documented this issue with the dealer, they find symptoms (wattery oily hose) then it's up to corporate to buy off on it.

If you've had your car towed to the dealer on more than one occasion because of this, i can't imagine they wouldn't install the kit.

But for VW to blindly issue the kit to everyone who knows about it and they just want to cover their butts, i don't think they will, as there are so many cars on the road that A) haven't had this issue, B) haven't seen the weather that causes it, C) don't operate the car in a way that this issue would even be a problem.
Ridiculous reasoning, sorry.

A person should not have to have their "car towed to the dealer on more than one occasion because of this" in order for the problem to be solved.

Lunacy.

It's a design flaw and it should be fixed. For everyone.
 

40X40

Experienced
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Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium
Ridiculous reasoning, sorry.

A person should not have to have their "car towed to the dealer on more than one occasion because of this" in order for the problem to be solved.

Lunacy.

It's a design flaw and it should be fixed. For everyone.

Reading Comprehension?

I did not get the same meaning from his post that you apparently did.

Bill
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
I'm not surprised. Care to explain? Here is a simplified edited version of what the poster said:

... if you've documented this issue with [a] dealer [and] they find symptoms ... then [the fix should be installed].

If you've had your car towed to the dealer on more than one occasion because of this, [then the fix should be installed].

[I doubt that] VW [will] "blindly" issue the kit to everyone ... [because] there are so many cars ... that [don't need it].

So, we're left with:

1. The dealer needs to find symptoms (meaning: one cannot just prevent the problem from happening in the first place ... one must have a car that's showing symptoms).
2. Owners need to actively seek a remedy (in contrast to a recall).
3. Owners may need to have had their car towed (more than once even!) because of the problem.
4. Not every car needs the new intercooler.

I don't agree with this reasoning.

It's a design flaw. The vehicle is not working as expected and users should not be unduly burdened by the flaw. Being forced to wait until symptoms occur is undue. Being forced to have the car towed even once because of this is even more so. Every vehicle should be fixed, because the vehicles may travel from one place (a place that supposedly will not lead to the problem) to another (a place that's the opposite), they may be sold to someone else who will move the vehicle to an "incompatible" location -- or the new owner may "drive the vehicle in such a manner as to expose the design flaw", and so on. (We can ignore question of the validity of this "location compatibility" and "driver behavior" stuff, because there are other proven reasons.) It's a matter of fairness for every owner of these vehicles to be treated equally. It affects resale, owner confidence in the vehicle, and so forth. I'm also wondering if this is a safety issue since the vehicle could lose its ability to run in highly inconvenient places -- which could lead to accidents. Safety issues merit recalls, do they not?
 
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bhtooefr

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Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
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None
The logic on the third point is a bit off. A more accurate version would be...

3. If owners have had their car towed more than once, there should be no problem at all getting it, but that probably isn't necessary, as long as the issue is documented.

This fix may not actually be finalized, and they may be beta testing it on customer cars, due to the difficulty of testing it on their own fleet. Therefore, this may be a 2-stage fix - fix cars that are documented to have the issue, get results back from them on whether they're failing or not, then if it worked, and isn't causing other problems, push it out to everyone.
 

40X40

Experienced
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium
The logic on the third point is a bit off. A more accurate version would be...
3. If owners have had their car towed more than once, there should be no problem at all getting it, but that probably isn't necessary, as long as the issue is documented.
This fix may not actually be finalized, and they may be beta testing it on customer cars, due to the difficulty of testing it on their own fleet. Therefore, this may be a 2-stage fix - fix cars that are documented to have the issue, get results back from them on whether they're failing or not, then if it worked, and isn't causing other problems, push it out to everyone.


See? TOOF got the first time out!

If you approach the 'world' from a non-adversarial point of view, then the 'world' starts to make more sense.

Bill
 
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gumaku1

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2010
Location
Ohio
TDI
2010 Sportwagen TDI - DSG
What is the Charge Air Cooler Regulator Flap? Is this new with the kit or maybe this existed before the kit. My guess is it is new with the kit, and a "flap" might just be a bypass circuit or maybe a throttling valve to change the velocity of the air through the charge air cooler (intercooler) when the weather is cold. Please post more detail with actual pictures of the old (Stock) vs. new (kit). Also can anyone check the parts catalogs to see what new models will apply this kit for mass production vehciles (New Passat TDI, 2011 Jetta sedan TDI, etc.)

Had the fix for this issue installed on my Jetta yesterday. Took almost 7 hours. No noticeable differences in the way the car runs. Time will tell. Looking at a copy of the TSB install instructions have a better idea of what the new elbow is.
The piece coming out of the side is a temperature switch with 2 nipples, one for a ventilation hose to the air cleaner, another to a vacuum source and the larger fitting for a hose to the charge air cooler regulator flap.
 

MayorDJQ

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Location
Williamstown, Mass
TDI
'10 Golf 2dr 6m, sold.
Had the fix for this issue installed on my Jetta yesterday. Took almost 7 hours. No noticeable differences in the way the car runs. Time will tell. Looking at a copy of the TSB install instructions have a better idea of what the new elbow is.
The piece coming out of the side is a temperature switch with 2 nipples, one for a ventilation hose to the air cleaner, another to a vacuum source and the larger fitting for a hose to the charge air cooler regulator flap.
What is the Charge Air Cooler Regulator Flap? Is this new with the kit or maybe this existed before the kit. My guess is it is new with the kit, and a "flap" might just be a bypass circuit or maybe a throttling valve to change the velocity of the air through the charge air cooler (intercooler) when the weather is cold. Please post more detail with actual pictures of the old (Stock) vs. new (kit). Also can anyone check the parts catalogs to see what new models will apply this kit for mass production vehciles (New Passat TDI, 2011 Jetta sedan TDI, etc.)
According to the Self-Study guide, the only "flaps" in the system are after the I/C (charge air cooler), so I'd be interested in knowing about this, too. In the pictures posted a while ago, it looks like there's a black thing on the driver's side of the I/C. Perhaps that's the regulator? Maybe it closes off part of the internals of the I/C so that there isn't as much cooling?
 

gumaku1

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2010
Location
Ohio
TDI
2010 Sportwagen TDI - DSG
Now I really want to know more, maybe the new IC has a vacuum operated valve, that is where all of the magic is!!! That would make the most sense, basically taking the IC out of the equation when the temperature is low, what a great idea. Now can someone please confirm this? maybe the self study document from VW has more info?


According to the Self-Study guide, the only "flaps" in the system are after the I/C (charge air cooler), so I'd be interested in knowing about this, too. In the pictures posted a while ago, it looks like there's a black thing on the driver's side of the I/C. Perhaps that's the regulator? Maybe it closes off part of the internals of the I/C so that there isn't as much cooling?
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
The logic on the third point is a bit off. A more accurate version would be...

3. If owners have had their car towed more than once, there should be no problem at all getting it, but that probably isn't necessary, as long as the issue is documented.
Yes, that makes more logical sense, although it's not what the person said.
This fix may not actually be finalized, and they may be beta testing it on customer cars, due to the difficulty of testing it on their own fleet. Therefore, this may be a 2-stage fix - fix cars that are documented to have the issue, get results back from them on whether they're failing or not, then if it worked, and isn't causing other problems, push it out to everyone.
Let me know when you have more than speculation.
If you approach the 'world' from a non-adversarial point of view, then the 'world' starts to make more sense.
Let me know when you plan to start with that approach.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2017 Alltrack SE; Totaled 2015 Passat SEL, BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat SE w/ Nav,
it's all speculation what the dealer would do unless you call. Many people have had no issue with replacement of the "Exhaust flapper Vavlve" under 60K-80K warranty, where some poeple have been told to pound sand.

We all know VW and their dealer network, seems like nothing's set in stone. The best bet is to cover your a**, know about the situation and how to correct it.

Yeah it sucks that VW wouldn't do a blanket recall, but so far the people who've had this issue have been working with the dealer and seems like they haven't gotten any slack for them to complete this TSB.
 
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