Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

[eddif]

I believe, at the time, I was openly laughed at for suggesting a drain valve...

By post #668 I openly supported your idea (with the suggestion it could be made atomatic). I also suggested warming the intake charge to thaw and allow drain.

It will be interesting to learn just what the kit will do. There is still the option of DIY for a lot less than the kit.

eddif

 

[El Dobro]

Maybe if one of the guys that works for a VW dealer can give the kit a good going over to see what it's all about when they get one in.

 

[740GLE]

do we still know 100% that this kit drains sludge out of the charged air system? even though some people have substantial water, many have a thick goo that i don't see draining very easy and possibility of cloging that valve.

We still don't know how this is implemented and what changes to the ECU has been done to integrate it.

 

[B25guy]

I'm scheduled to get my "kit" installed next Wednesday...I'll try to find out what all this entails.

BTW, the water that was drained from my i/c was mostly that and the green slimy goo was not nearly as thick as it some might think. There was a definite greenish oily contribution but not any less viscous than the water.

Marc

 

[Conan]

I imagine the melted ice goo that fills the pipe probably starts very runny, and gets "goopier" through evaporation. If the device drains the pipe frequently, it makes sense that the thick goo would never form in the first place. Think about it-- if the EGR system is dumping super-humid air into the cold intercooler, water and ice will form. Leaving it in there for weeks is what leads to thick goo. That's my guess anyway-- time will tell.

(Like many here, I don't own an affected car, but am following closely because I probably will when my ALH wears out. Hopefully we'll be in the second term of President Not Born Yet when that happens...)

 

[gumaku1]

please consider than the kit contains a new intercooler, that is an expensive piece of the puzzle and there is alot going on there that you cannot see with the naked eye. Intercooler design is like rocket science.....

 

[Rather Be Biking]

If the new system expels anything from the car, that would be an emission, and would have to be regulated and tested. I don't think the EPA would be too happy with cars that regularly spit oily sludge. Which bets the question, where is this system sending its effluent?

 

[B25guy]

I guess we'll learn this eventually, but if it turns out it is just dumping the condensate overboard, how is that any different than an over-the-road semi with a sneezer in the air brake filter/drier system? It's been a while (and maybe they're not doing that anymore), but these did exactly that and what would come out of my JSW would be just condensed water from the exhaust (EGR?) system...EPA shouldn't get too terribly excited...no?

Marc

 

[MayorDJQ]

I guess we'll learn this eventually, but if it turns out it is just dumping the condensate overboard, how is that any different than an over-the-road semi with a sneezer in the air brake filter/drier system? It's been a while (and maybe they're not doing that anymore), but these did exactly that and what would come out of my JSW would be just condensed water from the exhaust (EGR?) system...EPA shouldn't get too terribly excited...no?

Marc

The "sneezer" isn't dumping oily sludge onto the ground.

The CBEA/CJAA engines are billed as being Clean Diesels. That image will get tarnished quickly if every thousand or so miles the engine blows a blob of oily gunk onto a parking lot.

 

[eddif]

Exhaust Extraction

Introducing the water into hot exhaust flow might solve the "dumping" issue. Timed for introduction during only hot exhaust times might just vaporize the water and burn the minute amount of oil. Emulsified oil fries and burns rapidly anyway.

Racers use exhaust extraction to get rid of blow-by. This is a super simple tube in the exhaust pipe pointing downstream (with other things).

The point of introduction and timing would have to be worked out.

eddif

 

[MayorDJQ]

Introducing the water into hot exhaust flow might solve the "dumping" issue. Timed for introduction during only hot exhaust times might just vaporize the water and burn the minute amount of oil. Emulsified oil fries and burns rapidly anyway.

Racers use exhaust extraction to get rid of blow-by. This is a super simple tube in the exhaust pipe pointing downstream (with other things).

The point of introduction and timing would have to be worked out.

eddif

Water being introduced into the system is already the problem, from the LP-EGR.

So instead of dumping the sludge on to the ground or into a catch can, you'd force it all through the combustion chamber? I think I'll skip that fix.

 

[soulflyer]

Fix installed yesterday

Got my fix installed yesterday.
I had my car in for an oil change in the shop anyway on Wednesday when I asked the service guy about the fix (I got the kit number from this thread). He referred me to the service manager who took 5 minutes to find the TSB in his database. He cleared the case through VW of Canada, ordered the parts overnight and had it installed yesterday. It took them the whole day. I drove 170km today (my daily commute) and noticed no change in behavior such as mpg or acceleration as far as I can tell.

Kudos to Volkswagen Vaudreuil in Vaudreuil near Montreal. I experienced true costumer service. They looked at my case, looked at the TSB and said (without hesitation!): don't worry we get it fixed for you. 30hrs later I was on the road again with the fix installed. Mind you I have 78500km on my 2010 GSW and I will be out of Warranty next week..

I did not have a chance to talk to the mechanic to find out about the details of the fix since I got took the car back in the evening. But I will keep you updated on any 'strange' behavior...

 

[740GLE]

i don't think anyone will know how this works until next winter, but it's good to know how it works this summer.

keep an eye on MPG and drivabilty, hopefully the install was done correctly and no blown off charged air pipes down the line.

 

[eddif]

Water being introduced into the system is already the problem, from the LP-EGR.

So instead of dumping the sludge on to the ground or into a catch can, you'd force it all through the combustion chamber? How do you heat a I think I'll skip that fix.

I will try again.

The problem is water being introduced into the intake side of the engine (enough to cause hydrolock in the worst situations). The stock cars send the water through the combestion chamber. The soulution I suggested is to put the water in the exhaust side of the engine post EGR, so that you only expell vapor out the tailpipe (the amount of oil should be minute).

Nothing I am speaking of is being sent through the combustion chamber.

i don't think anyone will know how this works until next winter, but it's good to know how it works this summer.

keep an eye on MPG and drivabilty, hopefully the install was done correctly and no blown off charged air pipes down the line.

We may not know how it works till winter, but it would be good to use the summer to find out all the details of the kit.

eddif

 

[MayorDJQ]

The soulution I suggested is to put the water in the exhaust side of the engine post EGR, so that you only expell vapor out the tailpipe (the amount of oil should be minute).

Nothing I am speaking of is being sent through the combustion chamber

I think I follow you now....the drain from the "fix" goes to the exhaust side of the system? Wouldn't it have to drain downstream of LP-EGR flap in the exhaust pipe, I would think if it's too far upstream it could get re-ingested and cause other problems or exacerbate the cycle.

 

[eddif]

I think I follow you now....the drain from the "fix" goes to the exhaust side of the system? Wouldn't it have to drain downstream of LP-EGR flap in the exhaust pipe, I would think if it's too far upstream it could get re-ingested and cause other problems or exacerbate the cycle.

Probably.

Introducing the water into hot exhaust flow might solve the "dumping" issue. Timed for introduction during only hot exhaust times might just vaporize the water and burn the minute amount of oil. Emulsified oil fries and burns rapidly anyway.

Racers use exhaust extraction to get rid of blow-by. This is a super simple tube in the exhaust pipe pointing downstream (with other things).

The point of introduction and timing would have to be worked out.

eddif

Please note you are now to the last sentence of my post.

"The point of introduction and timing would have to be worked out."

We all are sure open to suggestions.

eddif

 

[gumaku1]

Before we get all set on "sneezer" or "drain" how do we even know this is a drain?

maybe the elbow hose has a throttling valve in it that just simply speeds up the air velocity in cold temperatures therefore pushing the moisture to the engine intake instead of letting it sit in the elbow.
Has anyone confirmed what is inside of the elbow yet? I would like to see better pictures of this design.

 

[nicklockard]

^^Very good point.

 

[eddif]

Before we get all set on "sneezer" or "drain" how do we even know this is a drain?

maybe the elbow hose has a throttling valve in it that just simply speeds up the air velocity in cold temperatures therefore pushing the moisture to the engine intake instead of letting it sit in the elbow.
Has anyone confirmed what is inside of the elbow yet? I would like to see better pictures of this design.

That can be a point. In fact there are probably several ways to get the job done. I just tend toward the $100 USD fix, rather than the $1,000 USD fix. Just my nature and not to be taken as correct every time. I suggest several alternatives be throught through. It will be winter before the testing begins. If we wait till next winter to think, will we have enough time to think of solutions before the next spring?

What we can probably do, on an owners level is: drain the water and heat the intake air. The solutions I usually look for are the things I can do.

The new intercooler may be matched just by covering part of the original, (who knows?).

My comments were a way we could help the water / goo disposal situation (we were in agony over what to do with the water). No one seemed interested in the holding tank or goo drops on the pavement.

It seems very popular to run everything through the engine for disposal. That is the trouble on several fronts right now. Water in fuel is just sent throuth the injection system. I grant that there is not much water in fuel today, but it does happen. The present solution is to evaporate the water / frost/ condensate into the engine intake (too bad that in the worst situation you get hydrolock or rust in the cylinder (?). In the good old days we actually took time to drain water and filter things. Now the new way is to burn everything, or depend on warranty / insurance to fix failures (in some cases this is not working). When warranty is gone and you are fooling with a 10 year old car, how much will you want to spend to keep it going.

Any other suggestions about dealing with the problem?

Redneck jerk from Mississippi

eddif

 

[MayorDJQ]

It seems very popular to run everything through the engine for disposal. That is the trouble on several fronts right now. Water in fuel is just sent throuth the injection system. I grant that there is not much water in fuel today, but it does happen. The present solution is to evaporate the water / frost/ condensate into the engine intake (too bad that in the worst situation you get hydrolock or rust in the cylinder (?). In the good old days we actually took time to drain water and filter things. Now the new way is to burn everything, or depend on warranty / insurance to fix failures (in some cases this is not working). When warranty is gone and you are fooling with a 10 year old car, how much will you want to spend to keep it going.

Where are you getting that water is sent through the injection system? The fuel filter on the CRs still acts as a water separator, even though there's no drain.

There will always be water vapor in the exhaust, as water is a one of the by-products of combustion. That vapor isn't from water in the fuel. Maybe someone with a chemistry background can chime in on this.

 

[MonsterTDI09]

I think blocking off I/C would work.The reason why it might work.One day it was like 3* my temp gage was around 160*.I went down this steep mountaion about 50 mph and I watch temp start to drop down.I figure all that cold air going through the I/C is taking all or most of the heat out and inturn, the condesation is freezing or droping out of the air.This is just a guess on my part.

 

[MayorDJQ]

I think blocking off I/C would work.The reason why it might work.One day it was like 3* my temp gage was around 160*.I went down this steep mountaion about 50 mph and I watch temp start to drop down.I figure all that cold air going through the I/C is taking all or most of the heat out and inturn, the condesation is freezing or droping out of the air.This is just a guess on my part.

That's exactly what's happening.

While coolant temps may drop, the conditions inside the I/C should remain relatively constant, I would think. You'll still be drawing 3*F air into the air filter, heating it to XX* while passing through the turbo, introducing LP-EGR, then sending it through the I/C, which has 3*F air passing through it.

 

[gumaku1]

can someone take better pictures of the VW cold weather kit installed? I would like to understand better what the German engineers are thinking when they came up with this service fix.

 

[CedarPark68]

I hope to never have to have it installed, yet I live in the same town

Rigth now it is so hot ... 104 .... gonna have to wait to see if it works.

I enjoy the spirit of those who think they can come up with an alternative solution, but time has proven that for major issues such as this one, it will be VW or no one.

Look at the monster thread re: HPFP Analysis .... nice reading, but in the end, candidly, zero.

I view this one the same ... why would VW change the intercooler? Because there is no simple solution.

 

[cleaver]

i hope to never have to have it installed, yet i live in the same town

rigth now it is so hot ... 104 .... Gonna have to wait to see if it works.

I enjoy the spirit of those who think they can come up with an alternative solution, but time has proven that for major issues such as this one, it will be vw or no one.

Look at the monster thread re: Hpfp analysis .... Nice reading, but in the end, candidly, zero.

I view this one the same ... Why would vw change the intercooler? Because there is no simple solution.

^^^^ +1

 

[Rather Be Biking]

I think blocking off I/C would work.The reason why it might work.One day it was like 3* my temp gage was around 160*.I went down this steep mountaion about 50 mph and I watch temp start to drop down.I figure all that cold air going through the I/C is taking all or most of the heat out and inturn, the condesation is freezing or droping out of the air.This is just a guess on my part.

Blocking off the I/C has been working for me for the last two winters. I start taking pieces of pipe insulation off when the temp hits 40, put em back on if it drops below 25. Haven't had a starting problems since. Don't see any reason to have this thing installed on my car.

 

[eddif]

Where are you getting that water is sent through the injection system? The fuel filter on the CRs still acts as a water separator, even though there's no drain.

There will always be water vapor in the exhaust, as water is a one of the by-products of combustion. That vapor isn't from water in the fuel. Maybe someone with a chemistry background can chime in on this.

The fuel filter on the CRs still acts as a water separator, even though there's no drain.
I would suppose that when enough water gets in the filter it goes through the injection system. I have admitted that our fuel has little water normally, but there are times when something causes water to be in the fuel.

There will always be water vapor in the exhaust, as water is a one of the by-products of combustion. That vapor isn't from water in the fuel
There are two issues we are discussing (it just started when talking about water and the other issue came up (when you have multiple water issues on a car it just gets mentioned).
1.. Water in the fuel that can help cause HPFP failures.
2.. Water in the exhaust when EGR is operating and is a possible source of moisture (just where and how is not definate right now).

There was no intention to tie them together. It was just a passing comment.

eddif

 

[sgoldste01]

Blocking off the I/C has been working for me for the last two winters. I start taking pieces of pipe insulation off when the temp hits 40, put em back on if it drops below 25. Haven't had a starting problems since. Don't see any reason to have this thing installed on my car.

Can you please provide pics of what you're using, and how you install it?

 

[740GLE]

Do a search here for "pipe insulation" it's a common mod for the mk4's in canada, can't really beat it for $10

 

[B25guy]

I dropped my JSW off yesterday for the kit installation and asked to see the parts. I was particularly interested in the new elbow with the fitting in it. As best I could tell there appears to be a brass-colored sensor with tiny holes protruding in the airstream with three vacuum line connections on the outside. I'm going to guess it is a moisture or vapor sensor and not a water sensor per se (didn't have two probes that would provide a closed circuit should water pool in that location as in what I had in my CTD fuel filter). So my thinking is that it will sense the moisture in the air going into the i/c and if it is too much, alter the LP-EGR somehow. I don't believe it is a dump valve of any sort.
Sorry, can't provide any additional pictures or intel.

Service guy said they did one other JSW the week before...and this is the only two he knows about in our area.

Marc