Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

[shortysclimbin]

Two weeks ago I opened up three cars intercooler hoses while on the lift... All with varied mileage and different owners. Each had no water and no real oil coating on the inside. I suspect issues may be related to driving habits. Each of the car owners have lead feet and drive very spirited on shorter trips... I am working on checking a few more to see what is going on.

 

[n1das]

I suspect we're not going to see much of the symptoms anymore now that we're getting into warmer weather. We should still keep an eye on how much oil collects there.

 

[UberVW_TDI]

Two weeks ago I opened up three cars intercooler hoses while on the lift... All with varied mileage and different owners. Each had no water and no real oil coating on the inside. I suspect issues may be related to driving habits. Each of the car owners have lead feet and drive very spirited on shorter trips... I am working on checking a few more to see what is going on.

Seriously?
You seem to have a big miss understanding about this issue. Once condensed inside the intercooler, the water will not simply stay inside.
Air is being sucked through the intercooler way too fast for water to be able to stay inside the intercooler for any long period of time. Any water accumulated inside is not going to "pool' up over time until someone opens the hoses and drains it out. It gets sucked through the engine within minutes if not seconds....depending on driving conditions, of course.
This issue is due to recirculated exhaust moisture (natural product of combustion) freezing inside the cold intercooler during cold days. Once the the temperature gets above freezing inside the intercooler, the ice of course melts, were it will puddle up inside the intercooler and wait to be sucked into the engine during the next start up.
This usually shows itself at start up in ~35-40 degree weather after driving in below freezing weather. The engine will have a hard time starting (its hydrolocking on the ingested water). If the owner gets the engine started, it will run like "its on three cylinders" until the water is sucked through the engine...at which time the engine will return to normal operation and idle and run as before. But, sometimes enough water can be sucked in at once to cause the engine to break something as water does not compress very well. I've read about three people having to get new engines due to internal damage (usually caused by bent rods, broken glow plugs causing cylinder damage, etc.)

You can't simply randomly open up TDI's with the LP-EGR system and expect to see water just sitting around inside.

I had this issue when the weather was 19 degrees for a day or two, then warmed up to mid 30's. I found almost 2 cups of water inside my intercooler when it wouldn't start up after sitting in garage through the night (~38 inside garage). Only tried to start it twice. Both times, it cranked fine but immediatly and suddently died.
Again after driving to work in 19 F weather....When heading home for the day, I first tried to start it and it idled like crap. I immediately turned it off and drained another 1/2 cup of water out.
Warmer weather (above freezing)....opened up intercooler. Nothing. Dry.

You won't find anything during warm weather.

How many people have complained about how their car would crank but suddently die in these conditions, if they could get it to restart, it would run very very rough for about 5 minutes.....as the water was being sucked through the engine.

This is a huge issue. Sucks that I can't feel comfortable driving my car in cold weather.

Very curious how this issue wasn't discovered in LP-EGR product development.

VW still says, "Engineers are aware if this issue, and are working on a fix, but nothing yet" As told by VW CustomerCare.....

The LP-EGR system is the cause of this issue. Without it the car won't meet TierIIBin5 emissions....so they can't simply shut the LP-EGR system down during cold weather. They will have to re-route the re-circulated exhaust around the intercooler during cold weather. Expensive fix.

VW told me they would have a fix by the first week of March 2011. Still nothing..... as I've called recently to check on status.

Love my TDI overall, but amazed at how this unique LP_EGR system wasn't engineered very effectively.

 

[busdrvr]

While I have no way of knowing what exactly caused the bent Con Rod in my recently purchased 09 , I can say that the records indicate it occurred in August 2010.

Was it water or fuel?

If it was water then cold OAT is not the issue.

 

[oxford_guy]

You want to fix the problem? Block the intercooler during cold weather. Done.

Is this a safe work-around?

 

[n1das]

Is this a safe work-around?

Blocking the intercooler off is perfectly safe to do. Whether it is effective at preventing iced up intercoolers is unknown. We'll have to wait until winter to find out. The engine doesn't really need an intercooler in the dead of winter but definitely needs it in warm weather. OK to block off in winter but don't do it in the summer.

I thought about doing this with my 2010 JSW TDI and bought foam pipe insulation to cover the front grille area but then didn't bother with it. So far I haven't had any problems.

 

[bhtooefr]

If you block it off in summer, you'll almost certainly notice reduced power, air conditioning performance will be poorer (air conditioning condenser is behind the intercooler), and coolant temperatures may register higher (radiator is behind the condenser). Which is why you don't block it off in summer.

In winter, the air coming out of the turbo isn't getting hot enough to need much cooling (and the theory is that the cooling is why there's icing problems), so you won't notice reduced power, you're not even using the air conditioning, and the air that still goes past the radiator is cool enough to keep it cool (and your engine will warm up faster, too, so blocking it off in winter can be better for your engine in other ways).

 

[TDI Koche]

Wow, I've been keeping track of your situation and I'm glad you are close to resolution.


So your dealers recommendation has really made me think about what is best going forward. As I look out my window today in SE Wisconsin we have 33 degrees with moderate rain /sleet/snow.
I may even call your dealer to get some more info. So.... thanks!

Me too.

The recommendation is not from my dealer, but from VWoA. The tech working on my car has mentioned to me that this "temp solution" is basically smoke and mirrors but it was done because the VW field engineer instructed him to do so.

My dealers number is 815-725-5200(Darcy VW - Joliet, IL). They have been wonderful in assisting me to get this resolved. I recommend them to everyone. I have been dealing directly with the service manager for quite a while now.

 

[richardvw6]

had the same problem occur with my 09' told of a partial fix by vw canada,ie removal of air inlet pipe that is between the front grill and the airfilter box, results are that warm air is drawn in instead of cold damp air, i found that covering the left [driver] side of the grill with a vynil or fabric cover to deflect the cold and damp air away from the inlet port, it will not effect performance as the pipe is open at the back side and will draw in warm dry air, it also lets the engine run a liitle warmer which is pro diesel, ive done this for 2 months now [feb\mar] and havn't had a problem since

 

[eddif]

had the same problem occur with my 09' told of a partial fix by vw canada,ie removal of air inlet pipe that is between the front grill and the airfilter box, results are that warm air is drawn in instead of cold damp air, i found that covering the left [driver] side of the grill with a vynil or fabric cover to deflect the cold and damp air away from the inlet port, it will not effect performance as the pipe is open at the back side and will draw in warm dry air, it also lets the engine run a liitle warmer which is pro diesel, ive done this for 2 months now [feb\mar] and havn't had a problem since

While you may be changing the temp of the inlet air by removing the inlet pipe, you may be setting up another problem.

The cool air grill inlet has another positive effect. In some cases of a single car on a dirty road the inlet has clean air inlet. There is a filter, but with the grill inlet you get clean air too. With the inlet now under hood you tend to get more dust stirred up by the front wheels on a dusty road surface. If two cars are involved the first car will stir up dust and the second will get part of that regardless of where the inlet is, but IMHO the cool air inlet has two advantages (cool air and clean air).

Correctly engineered, another cool air inlet would take air past the exhaust manifold to pick up heat for cold weather, and not use possible dusty air all the winter miles. Of course I may have missed something, but to just start removing the pipe without thinking and examining the situation would be negligent.

eddif

 

[B25guy]

following up...

Had the car in the other day after noticing the oil level was way overfilled...from when they had it in February after the i/c froze up...first question they asked was if I added any???

I'm not concerned that there's anything amiss, I did notice it higher the day I got it back in Feb and just thought I hadn't waited long enough for all the oil to settle...apparently they just overfilled by about half a quart.

Anyway, talking to the service guy (who was actually the parts guy standing in for the service manager) and he said he remembered this car and that there's no way the tech would've overfilled...hmm??

While the car was being detailed, I asked him about the alleged parts to fix the water-in-cooler issue and he said he hadn't heard anything about it and that as far as he knew, this was the only car in TX to experience this...not terribly well informed (but that's not news).

Guess I'll plan on blocking the i/c come cooler weather and not expect VW to really have a fix. Thought about creating a template for the shape and mass producing black Lexan clip in like I used to have on my 1st gen CTD while living in MT.

Mb

 

[UberVW_TDI]

Update:
VW kit to fix intercooler icing has arrived at my dealer. I went to talk to the service manager and to look at the parts today.
The service manager had no idea what VW engineering came up with. Just said, "we were told to put this on your car".
No information at all.
The elbow to the intercooler (with the valve) is interesting.
Looks like some vacuum lines, sensor, and the valve on the elbow. Not sure what was changed on the interals of the intercooler.
I wasn't able to look at the parts too long. But I did take pictures of eveything in the kit. I will be contacting VW to try to get more information before this goes on my car. I'm finding VW doesn't like to talk to their customers.

Kit number on box = 1K0-198-803-B

1K0-133-902-B (HOSE A) & 1K0-133-901-B (HOSE B)

03G-906-051-K (SENSOR)

Elbow with valve (no part number)

Intercooler (no part number)

 

[Conan]

Uber,

That's the first I had heard of a fix. Are they doing it as a recall, warranty, or are you having to pay for it? Looks pretty straightforward if a little over-engineered. A valve to suck water out w/o creating a boost leak, like I suggested a long time ago...

 

[740GLE]

that or a bypass for the IC all together.

if that is a snot blow out valve, where'd the snot go?

btw how did you come about this? did the dealer inform you of this? or VWoA? TSB would be worth it's weight in gold!

Wondering if I should call up my dealer with the part number as they satated they were going to let me know when the fix was out, mind as well wait till next winter as i don't think i'll have much icing going on for quite some time.

Def keep us updated with how things look after everything is installed, might cure some peoples bad IC clamps/leaking issues.

BTW that kit does not look cheap? how much do you think that IC is worth?

 

[birkie]

Excellent! Thanks for the heads up on the potential fix

BTW that kit does not look cheap? how much do you think that IC is worth?

I found this in a random page that exists only in google cache purgatory:

1K0-198-803-B REPAIR KIT 1 $890.89

 

[VolksDudeTDI]

At least we know VW is doing something about it....
But it looks like a "beta" kit. The elbow looks really weird. Check this out, they'll need one more winter to confirm the fix...and then they do a recall...

 

[sgoldste01]

I don't think it looks like a "beta" kit. It looks official to me. And I'm confident VW figured out a way to test it in the proper environmental conditions to confirm that the fix works.

 

[MonsterTDI09]

What side does the elbow go on? I hope it does not interfere with the bracket for the skid plate

 

[Samcar222]

This is good news... I'm at 15k miles right now.. So I'll email my local dealer (dorschel VW) and ask about this fix.

 

[Mike_in_NEPA]

I wonder if the 2012 models will have this installed at factory?

 

[gumaku1]

yes, I would be interested to see if this applied as a running change on the 11M TDI's. Can anyone check the ETKA and see if service parts changed?

 

[gumaku1]

that elbow looks like it might have a throttling valve in it, could you take a look inside elbow?

 

[UberVW_TDI]

I've been bugging VWCustomerCare about a fix for the intercooler icing issue (happened to me twice last winter). They sent this kit to my local dealer as a result of my persistant phone calls

Not a recall. Dealer said they are doing the fix on a case by case basis. (ie this is an expensive fix).

I couldn't see inside the valve on the elbow. Its some kind of vacuum operated valve. I'm not sure where the hoses route to?
Wonder where they are planning on channeling the water to?
The service manager wouldn't tell me or didn't know anything about the details of this fix.

I'll try to get VW engineering to give me some information as I want to know what they came up with. I'll get more information about it before its installed.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I'll be interested to see if and/or when these changes are integrated into new car production.

 

[740GLE]

Prob never seeing the small amount of people that have had it and the even smaller number of people that have had it and know it's not due to "gelled/bad fuel" that the dealer always states and it's a non issue.

It seems there have been only a hand full of people that have stalled out/cannot get the car to run requiring a tow compared to the number of people who had a stumble on start up.

How many normal people who had a "start/run rough/die/restart/run rough/smooth out/run normal" think that it's just a fluke and move on with their lives, never thinking about it again.

Seeing how complicated this addaptation is, I'd like to know how it works in those small environments where it's needed. Anyone think it'd hit the MPGs? my guess not. I'd almost think a simple partial blocking off of IC paired with monitoring AIT would be easier and less hassles down the road over the long haul.

 

[sgoldste01]

I'd like to know what I need to do to convince the dealer to install this on my car. It only happened to me once last winter (or it might have been early spring), but I'd like to not have to deal with that again!

 

[740GLE]

I don't think it looks like a "beta" kit. It looks official to me. And I'm confident VW figured out a way to test it in the proper environmental conditions to confirm that the fix works.

confident? just like we are always confident the motherland VW hires the best of the best engineers and never gets anything wrong? A lot of stuff lookes great on paper but goes flop in the real world where environments can vary all over the place.

BTW think of it this, lets say the put a car in an "enviroment chamber" and they can monitor icing building up in the IC proving what we know. They then install this bypass system and it works, allowing good start up. What makes you so confident they then tested this system in say 120 degree heat with rain and sleet or any other of the million different combinations that could happen?

I'm curious if this system deals with icing of the IC after it happens, drains crap out. Or if it's a sensor that places the engine load/parameters in a situation that prevents ice from forming, as I think that's what really needs to be done to solve this issue.

 

[birkie]

I've been bugging VWCustomerCare about a fix for the intercooler icing issue (happened to me twice last winter). They sent this kit to my local dealer as a result of my persistant phone calls

Not a recall. Dealer said they are doing the fix on a case by case basis. (ie this is an expensive fix).

Sigh

I'd like to know what I need to do to convince the dealer to install this on my car.

Sounds like either (a) lots of persistence or (b) $890.89 + labour . I wonder if this is like the BHW balance shaft fix: They found a nasty design flaw, created a re-designed part, and left diligent owners on their own to find out about it and take it upon themselves to implement a prophylactic fix.

 

[TwoTone]

At least we know VW is doing something about it....
But it looks like a "beta" kit. The elbow looks really weird. Check this out, they'll need one more winter to confirm the fix...and then they do a recall...

You must be new to VW, they won't recall anything. If you have the problem and if the dealer tech is competent enough to diagnose it correctly then you might get the fix applied. Think Balance shaft.

 

[dweisel]

I'd say that only cars that have water problems will get the fix. Or cars with engine damage caused by water. I highly doubt every 09 thru 11 will be retrofitted with this fix kit and although there have been only a handful of problems reported here on the fourm. The problem must be greater than that for VW to come up with this rather expensive fix. I've had water in my 09 JSW twice,but I'm not going to jump into getting the retro fix kit until more is known about it.