Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

[Rather Be Biking]

My Fix - 15 Months Later

I block off the lower, under the "bumper" grill with pipe insulation when the weather drops below freezing. This blocks cold air to the intercooler. On the occasional day when the temperature rises above 45F and I'm taking a long trip, I remove the middle peace of insulation to let some cool air through the intercooler. I haven't had a return of the cold start issue since then. Mileage has been great this winter as well, despite winter tires and fuel.

 

[Jack Frost]

That is what I basically do. It reduces the effectiveness of the IC, but when it is -30 C, who cares? The IC is not needed when it is extremely cold. When spring arrives, I will remove my IC cover and have the best of both worlds.

My worry is that VW upcoming solution will reduce the effectivenes of the IC all year round and be another mileage reducing feature. If the effectiveness of the IC is reduced for summer driving, the turbo is going to have hard time delivering the correct amount of air to the cylinders.

 

[dweisel]

That is what I basically do. It reduces the effectiveness of the IC, but when it is -30 C, who cares? The IC is not needed when it is extremely cold. When spring arrives, I will remove my IC cover and have the best of both worlds.

My worry is that VW upcoming solution will reduce the effectivenes of the IC all year round and be another mileage reducing feature. If the effectiveness of the IC is reduced for summer driving, the turbo is going to have hard time delivering the correct amount of air to the cylinders.

I seriously doubt VW's revision will have any affect at all on the intercooler's operational functions.

dweisel

 

[TDI Koche]

My car is still at the shop, going on 3 weeks now. It will need a new engine although I don't know who is paying for it yet. The regional VW rep has been in at my dealer multiple time in the last two weeks and will supposedly have an answer shortly. My dealer has been great and given me free use of a loner car even though I am outside of power-train warranty.

Here is what happened. Water collected in the I.C. was sucked into the engine. The glow plug was destroyed and parts of it fell into the cylinder. I will keep you all updated.

This IS an LP EGR problem. I'm sorry I cant say how I know, but this person works for VW and they know about it very well. I can only say that I met this person at a large manufacturer conference. He said because of the very stringent rules on diesel motors and emissions, the primary function of the LP-EGR is getting a catalyst up to optimum temperature within 1 minute of start up and then keeping it within certain temperature parameters. He has also told me about this site (like I didn't already know) and said that there should be someone on here that could shorten the duty cycle on the LP EGR. He said they can't do it, but that shouldn't stop me from having it done. Funny he mentioned a couple member by name that could do it, but I can't find my notes right now. UGH!

 

[TDI Koche]

LOL, found my note. Kerma and Rocketchip. Sp?

ON another note. My dealer has given me 2 loners know. First one Fully loaded Hyundia Sonata received with 114 miles on it. Given back this morning with 5524. Now I got another new sonata with 356 miles. My dealer has been great and I know they are fighting for me.

Darcy Volkswagen of Joliet Illinois. I feel like I should give them a plug. I just hope things turn out good with VWoA.

 

[itchytweed]

This IS an LP EGR problem. I'm sorry I cant say how I know, but this person works for VW and they know about it very well. I can only say that I met this person at a large manufacturer conference. He said because of the very stringent rules on diesel motors and emissions, the primary function of the LP-EGR is getting a catalyst up to optimum temperature within 1 minute of start up and then keeping it within certain temperature parameters. He has also told me about this site (like I didn't already know) and said that there should be someone on here that could shorten the duty cycle on the LP EGR. He said they can't do it, but that shouldn't stop me from having it done. Funny he mentioned a couple member by name that could do it, but I can't find my notes right now. UGH!

Ok. Now here is something. I have VCDS. I wonder if there is a point that can be monitored that indicates the position of the LP-EGR valving. I could do a long drive under varying circumstances (stop/go, freeway flat/climbing/coasting, from a cold start) and see if this is true. I would not be surprised that they are trying to get the first cats up (DPF and NOx(?)) fast.

 

[MayorDJQ]

Makes sense. There's also a post-injection event going on during warmup to help heat up the OxCat and DPF which could be contributing to the moisture buildup. Whatever the fix is, it shouldn't be that complex.

 

[n1das]

Ok. Now here is something. I have VCDS. I wonder if there is a point that can be monitored that indicates the position of the LP-EGR valving. I could do a long drive under varying circumstances (stop/go, freeway flat/climbing/coasting, from a cold start) and see if this is true. I would not be surprised that they are trying to get the first cats up (DPF and NOx(?)) fast.

I suspect there probably is a set of measuring blocks for the LP-EGR.

I'm wondering if there's an Adaptation channel that adjusts the LP-EGR duty cycle. Maybe it could be tweaked??

 

[740GLE]

LOL, found my note. Kerma and Rocketchip. Sp?

ON another note. My dealer has given me 2 loners know. First one Fully loaded Hyundia Sonata received with 114 miles on it. Given back this morning with 5524. Now I got another new sonata with 356 miles. My dealer has been great and I know they are fighting for me.

Darcy Volkswagen of Joliet Illinois. I feel like I should give them a plug. I just hope things turn out good with VWoA.

Malone Tuning has a thread about limiting EGR duty cycle. I think this was more for ALH cars, but he's pretty deep into the 2.0CR that I think he should be able to implement this without much hassle. You just need to pay the $500+ for the tune.

 

[dweisel]

My wager was simply that the LPEGR was the primary source of water being introduced into the intake air system (not what the solution might be), so let's let VW's description of the problem settle the bet. i.e. if they say water is being "sucked" into the IC ducting from a bad seal then you win, if they say it's related to excessive LPEGR then I win.

Hahahahaha. Yea, and if you believe VW will get it right. ALL hpfp failures are from misfuelings. What makes you think they'll get this water in the intercooler right.

I also don't see any of the ''positive pressure'' in the cold side intercooler guys taking on the $20 dontaion to the club bet. Guess maybe they're not so sure there is not suction on the cold side hose. C'mon guys.........the club needs your money!

dweisel

 

[MayorDJQ]

Hahahahaha. Yea, and if you believe VW will get it right. ALL hpfp failures are from misfuelings. What makes you think they'll get this water in the intercooler right.

I also don't see any of the ''positive pressure'' in the cold side intercooler guys taking on the $20 dontaion to the club bet. Guess maybe they're not so sure there is not suction on the cold side hose. C'mon guys.........the club needs your money!

dweisel

I'll post my logs this afternoon when I get home from work.

 

[gpshumway]

Makes sense. There's also a post-injection event going on during warmup to help heat up the OxCat and DPF which could be contributing to the moisture buildup. Whatever the fix is, it shouldn't be that complex.

The only post-injection event I was aware of was for regeneration of the DPF due to buildup of particulates, not for quick heating during cold-start. I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering where the info came from.

Also, anybody know how manipulating the operation of the LP-EGR could help light cats off faster? Usually the purpose of EGR is to reduce combustion temperature to reduce the production of NOx.

 

[SoTxBill]

Thanks to all for the explanations.

Now I have one more thing to worry about...exploding fuel pumps and frozen intercoolers.

Thaks a lot!

Dont forget about falling space debris.

 

[MayorDJQ]

The only post-injection event I was aware of was for regeneration of the DPF due to buildup of particulates, not for quick heating during cold-start. I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering where the info came from.

I believe I read that in the Self-Study guide. I'll try to find that reference this afternoon also.

 

[740GLE]

I know that when cold the injectors dump quite a bit more fuel at idle than normal. My idle on a 20 degree day stays around 1000 rpm for quite a while if i let it idle a long time. If I jump in and drive, it still wants to high idle after two miles and a couple traffic lights.

 

[MayorDJQ]

This log was made over ~5 miles of varying terrain this past Saturday using measuring block 10 & 2, IIRC. The barometric pressure was reading 1009.8 mbar as measured by VCDS, which is the dark blue line that doesn't change at all. According to my Bentley manual, the MAP sensor is in the "cold" side boost pipe.

I multiplied the Throttle % values by 10 so that it would be easier to see on the chart.

As you can see, the MAP (maroon-ish colored line) never dropped below that dark blue line, even at 0 throttle and declining RPMs, which is when you'd expect a high vacuum situation to exist. This suggests to me that no vacuum is created post-intercooler. The boost pressure actually seemed to linger when going to 0 throttle.

[/IMG]

The second chart is a "blow up" of the last section of the chart to make it a little easier to see some of the info:

[/IMG]

If someone knows a better way to show a graph from Excel, please let me know. I can email the logs if you want to display/chart them differently.

 

[dweisel]

This log was made over ~5 miles of varying terrain this past Saturday using measuring block 10 & 2, IIRC. The barometric pressure was reading 1009.8 mbar as measured by VCDS, which is the dark blue line that doesn't change at all. According to my Bentley manual, the MAP sensor is in the "cold" side boost pipe.

I multiplied the Throttle % values by 10 so that it would be easier to see on the chart.

As you can see, the MAP (maroon-ish colored line) never dropped below that dark blue line, even at 0 throttle and declining RPMs, which is when you'd expect a high vacuum situation to exist. This suggests to me that no vacuum is created post-intercooler. The boost pressure actually seemed to linger when going to 0 throttle.

[/IMG]

The second chart is a "blow up" of the last section of the chart to make it a little easier to see some of the info:

[/IMG]

If someone knows a better way to show a graph from Excel, please let me know. I can email the logs if you want to display/chart them differently.

So, knowing what the chart shows. You should feel confident enough to place that $20 bet/donation to the club. I say the coldside of the intercooler can create a vacuum. Chart says no vacuum. Wanna bet?

dweisel

 

[740GLE]

a log of data is only as good as the sensor.

 

[dweisel]

a log of data is only as good as the sensor.

My sensory perception tell me there is a vacuum. lol.

dweisel

 

[MayorDJQ]

a log of data is only as good as the sensor.

If it's good enough for the ECU, it's good enough for me.

How else would you measure the presence or lack thereof of vacuum? I'm not going to install a boost/vac gauge.

So, knowing what the chart shows. You should feel confident enough to place that $20 bet/donation to the club. I say the coldside of the intercooler can create a vacuum. Chart says no vacuum. Wanna bet?
dweisel

Sure, I'll take the bet. (Why do I feel like there's an "I told you so!" coming?)

 

[dweisel]

If it's good enough for the ECU, it's good enough for me.
How else would you measure the presence or lack thereof of vacuum? I'm not going to install a boost/vac gauge.
Sure, I'll take the bet. (Why do I feel like there's an "I told you so!" coming?)

Hahahahaaha! No,I don't think I've ever told anyone. ''I told you so!''
I'm just trying to make the club some money. lol. One down and about 4 more positive pressure on the coldside intercooler guys to go.

dweisel

 

[VeeDubTDI]

dweisel, how do you plan measuring for vacuum? I'm game for a bet, if you test it properly. Proper VCDS logs will be required, of course.

Also, if there is a leaking seal that sucks in water, how can you explain the water not being blown back out during times of positive pressure?

 

[dweisel]

dweisel, how do you plan measuring for vacuum? I'm game for a bet, if you test it properly. Proper VCDS logs will be required, of course.
Also, if there is a leaking seal that sucks in water, how can you explain the water not being blown back out during times of positive pressure?

Okay, thats two on the bet/donation. lol. Not sure it can be logged via VCDS,but I will be able to show that there is indeed a vacuum. I'm also not sure about WHY the water stays where it does. I haven't figured that one out yet. Other than thats the low point in the system. I do know that I won't be introducing water into my intercooler to try and figure out why it stays where it does. Thats too risky.

dweisel

 

[dweisel]

Now all we need is members bsalbrig and conan to take the bet and we can wrap this up. I think bsalbrig made a comment about being underwater and blowing bubbles. So, I take that as he believes there isn't any suction in the coldside intercooler hose. Get those bets placed so I can make the club $50 bucks and we can end this discussion and maybe even learn something.

dweisel

 

[VeeDubTDI]

No bet until you describe your proposed testing methods. Let's hear it.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

VCDS logs are also required. I want to see what the MAP numbers are compared to your own "findings."

 

[nicklockard]

I don't have a dog in this race--don't own a CR. I'm just curious here:
diesel, are you actually saying the boost charge pipe after the IC actually has vacuum (negative pressure differential w/r/t atmosphere) under some conditions? Am I reading you right?

Also, did you install your new parts that arrived today? Pics?

 

[eb2143]

diesel, are you actually saying the boost charge pipe after the IC actually has vacuum (negative pressure differential w/r/t atmosphere) under some conditions? Am I reading you right?
?

I was talking with my physics buddy tonight trying to figure out how a vacuum (although we really shouldn't be saying "vacuum") on the cold side could be possible. We both thought it was worthy of serious consideration despite at first glance seeming ridiculous.

We figured there would most certainly be a pressure drop across the intercooler and that there was a low pressure zone on the cold side (flow related and due to temperature drop...if there wasn't a pressure drop the intercooler could not be effective in cooling). Now the ability to suck requires less than atmospheric pressure on the cold side. If the car were coasting, could this happen? Maybe Do I buy this as the source of the water...no. But I will be watching.

Dwiesel's being a bit of a weasel with how's he's presenting his evidence: Just tell us straight up what you've purchased at the dealer and your theory on why there is a vacuum...lets have an adult conversation

 

[Ski in NC]

Whether a vacuum exists depends on how the vnt turbo is controlled. Tight vanes, and there will be some boost. Vanes open, very little boost and the flow losses elsewhere (filters, low rpm turbo compressor, intercooler, etc) may exceed the boost.

Easy to test: Tap into system on outlet of intercooler. Start engine, if it blows out, there is no vacuum. Sucks in, vacuum is present.

The IMP sensor (intake manifold pressure) probably is not super accurate at near atmospheric pressure, would not rely on that for betting purposes.

A water manometer is a fool-proof test.

The "sucking up water from rain" theory being debated is bunk, IMHO. It simply does not fit the bulk of cases where running in subfreezing temps followed by warm parking results in hydrolock or otherwise moistened engines.

 

[eb2143]

It simply does not fit the bulk of cases where running in subfreezing temps followed by warm parking results in hydrolock or otherwise moistened engines.

That's my number 1 issue with it as well. Scenarios often preclude any outside water source.