Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!
- Thread starter GraniteRooster
- Start date
aneblanc
Veteran Member
VW dealership's staff have learned and have been taught to keep a poker face!
mr_y82
Veteran Member
How warm? Humid? The inter-cooler problems aren't confined to cold weather entirely...
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
Correct, it's related to condensate build-up. I've had it happen in the summer in warm, humid weather. If the conditions are right, condensate will form and build up, and the engine will swallow a slug. Hard start if at start-up, and a big surprise if during sudden acceleration such as to overtake another vehicle or merge into a busy highway.
mr_y82
Veteran Member
^I remember having that "miss" on interstate sometimes in warm weather... luckily only had the hard starts in fairly cold/cool weather... all of it seems to have completely gone away.. 
TDI57
Veteran Member
LA2009
Member
I do apologize for not updating this thread sooner. Anyway, I did hear back from VW North America (Michael Horn forwarded the certified letter to one of the VP's) and I had a lengthy discussion with her based on the contents of the letter that I sent. Because my car had ~61,400 miles on it at the time of the intercooler kit replacement, they would not cover the entire cost under warranty. I suggested that they extend the warranty for all TDIs to 100K miles -- which was not an option. Although they would not cover the labor charge for install, they did offer to cover the parts, which was half the cost of the service.
10,000 miles after drilling the hole
Drilled the hole 10,000 miles ago after a hydro-lock/no-start.
Did an oil change today and it was a good opportunity to inspect the hole and see what went on underneath.
Good news is the hole was still open and was not clogged in any way. There was some oily goo in the belly pan and along the frame rail. See photos below.
I did notice puddles of oily water in my parking spot after driving in humid conditions. But, in no way was it objectionable.
Bottom line is that drilling the hole is probably the best simple fix. I have not thrown any codes in 10,000 miles. I know I sleep better at night knowing that I probably will not hydro-lock the next morning.
Hope this follow-up helps someone.
[/IMG]
Drilled the hole 10,000 miles ago after a hydro-lock/no-start.
Did an oil change today and it was a good opportunity to inspect the hole and see what went on underneath.
Good news is the hole was still open and was not clogged in any way. There was some oily goo in the belly pan and along the frame rail. See photos below.
I did notice puddles of oily water in my parking spot after driving in humid conditions. But, in no way was it objectionable.
Bottom line is that drilling the hole is probably the best simple fix. I have not thrown any codes in 10,000 miles. I know I sleep better at night knowing that I probably will not hydro-lock the next morning.
Hope this follow-up helps someone.
Last edited:
ray96disco
Veteran Member
/QUOTE]
Rhys, how big of a hole did you drill and is it drilled in the hose?
TDI57
Veteran Member
I had the mess in my pan, that is why I went the route I did with the small hose ti direct that away from the pan. See pics post 5316.Drilled the hole 10,000 miles ago after a hydro-lock/no-start.
Did an oil change today and it was a good opportunity to inspect the hole and see what went on underneath.
Good news is the hole was still open and was not clogged in any way. There was some oily goo in the belly pan and along the frame rail. See photos below.
I did notice puddles of oily water in my parking spot after driving in humid conditions. But, in no way was it objectionable.
Bottom line is that drilling the hole is probably the best simple fix. I have not thrown any codes in 10,000 miles. I know I sleep better at night knowing that I probably will not hydro-lock the next morning.
Hope this follow-up helps someone.
[/IMG]
arto_wa
Well-known member
Drilled the hole 10,000 miles ago after a hydro-lock/no-start.
Did an oil change today and it was a good opportunity to inspect the hole and see what went on underneath.
Good news is the hole was still open and was not clogged in any way. There was some oily goo in the belly pan and along the frame rail. See photos below.
I did notice puddles of oily water in my parking spot after driving in humid conditions. But, in no way was it objectionable.
Bottom line is that drilling the hole is probably the best simple fix. I have not thrown any codes in 10,000 miles. I know I sleep better at night knowing that I probably will not hydro-lock the next morning.
Hope this follow-up helps someone.
[/IMG]
I am glad you found a solution that works for you but I would not want that oily mess in my driveway for sure
TDI57
Veteran Member
I thought that would be a concern too, but it is not. I have not seen any drips whatsoever where I park. The pan is damp across the bottom from air flow past the hose but it is spread out from driving and not enough to drip when parked.I am glad you found a solution that works for you but I would not want that oily mess in my driveway for sure
Last edited:
10,000 miles after drilling the hole
Drill size is 5/64" in the lowest point of the black Plastic tube.
I do not have any oily stains in the driveway where I park, but have noticed puddles of water after driving on cool humid days (with the AC off).
Just wanted to post a 10,000 mile follow up
Drill size is 5/64" in the lowest point of the black Plastic tube.
I do not have any oily stains in the driveway where I park, but have noticed puddles of water after driving on cool humid days (with the AC off).
Just wanted to post a 10,000 mile follow up
Petra's cousin
Well-known member
Wow, what an epic (and long) read.
We bought a 2011 GSW in the summer with ~110k (70 000 miles) and while I haven't experienced a hard start yet, I have seen some pre-warmed up shuddering under power during our fall mornings. This is my first diesel but I think I'm sold, the torque is invigorating (my VW passion runs deep though, my last 4 daily drivers have been been VWs/Audis - an a3 Jetta, B5 passat wagon, C5 Allroad and an 88 Scirocco that I played with for 5 months this summer while I looked for a replacement for our Allroad, amazing how much you'll put up with once the VW bug bites).
I also had a odd event in September that is likely also related to condensation in the intercooler - I took two of my kids on a day trip out to see the columbia ice fields. There was no snow (or rain) that day, but temperatures ranged from just under freezing for the drive out, to around 30-40F for most of the drive back until just after supper time when the temperatures were probably in the mid 40's up into the mid 50's for the last hour of the trip (i.e. cool but sunny for most of the day's driving, but warming up as I got away from the mountains). Driving a stretch of two lane highway, dropped into 5th gear to pass the stacked up cars and trucks when a passing lane came up but had a stumble and what felt like a plugged inlet. Since I had started reading this thread by then and had my own theories about what was going on, I dropped another gear and proceeded to ramp up the RPMs thinking that I had to clear the inlet out. Seemed to work good, but after another hour of cruising in 6th gear, when I got off the highway to take the back roads into our neighbourhood I had the same thing happen again. Again, I ran a couple of gears long and tried to clear out the intake. Looking back, I'd characterize the trip as mostly loafing along in 6th gear under load (hilly mountainous terrain), interspersed with 4th gear passing up until the last 2 hours of the return trip which was mostly 6th gear loafing with low load - sounds like optimum conditions to frost up the intercooler, then melt it off as the temperatures rose near the end of the day.
I'll add my own theory about why the intercooler retrofits seem to help some people for a year or two (and similarly when new cars weren't typically a problem) - I'm wondering if a clean intercooler has less issues with allowing the condensation a location to attach to the walls of the intercooler. In other words the oil/goop that builds up on the walls of the intercooler are now initiation sites for frost or ice to build up during driving which increases the amount of condensation that is not flowed through the engine (whether as droplets, or in vapour form) during high humidity events, but instead its banked in the intercooler until you stop/park and either ambient conditions or the engine heat melts it and it collects at the low point. Intercooler cleaning isn't an easy thing to try (and I know typically the reason to clean any cooling device is to remove the fouling which acts as insulation and return the cooler back to initial efficiency, which runs counter to the theory that these intercoolers are too efficient which causes them to freeze off) so I doubt anyone would want to test this on their own car.
Second question - I wonder if the cheat programming made it impossible for the LP EGR to work properly (probably, since its purpose was to manage NOx emissions, maybe the LP EGR valve programming was trying to accomplish the NOx targets while the other programming was ignoring the high NOx levels).
As for my car, I'll likely put it up on the ramps and drill a 1/32-1/6" hole so it can drain, I'm in the process of making up my own winter covers for the lower and upper grills (it was only $25 for -75C PVC cloth, now I just have to get my kids to teach me how to run their sewing machines) and when finances permit there will definitely be a Malone tune, possibly with off-road modifications. I'm curious that there weren't more Calgarians with issues - our temperatures are all over the map when chinooks and winter storms blow in. The coldest weather definitely knocks the humidity out of the air, but the winter storms are usually right around freezing, then a chinook blows in and melts it all off again (over and over and over again through the winter and well into April/May). Temperatures can range from -20C in the morning to well above 10-15C in the afternoon as a chinook rolls in.
John
We bought a 2011 GSW in the summer with ~110k (70 000 miles) and while I haven't experienced a hard start yet, I have seen some pre-warmed up shuddering under power during our fall mornings. This is my first diesel but I think I'm sold, the torque is invigorating (my VW passion runs deep though, my last 4 daily drivers have been been VWs/Audis - an a3 Jetta, B5 passat wagon, C5 Allroad and an 88 Scirocco that I played with for 5 months this summer while I looked for a replacement for our Allroad, amazing how much you'll put up with once the VW bug bites).
I also had a odd event in September that is likely also related to condensation in the intercooler - I took two of my kids on a day trip out to see the columbia ice fields. There was no snow (or rain) that day, but temperatures ranged from just under freezing for the drive out, to around 30-40F for most of the drive back until just after supper time when the temperatures were probably in the mid 40's up into the mid 50's for the last hour of the trip (i.e. cool but sunny for most of the day's driving, but warming up as I got away from the mountains). Driving a stretch of two lane highway, dropped into 5th gear to pass the stacked up cars and trucks when a passing lane came up but had a stumble and what felt like a plugged inlet. Since I had started reading this thread by then and had my own theories about what was going on, I dropped another gear and proceeded to ramp up the RPMs thinking that I had to clear the inlet out. Seemed to work good, but after another hour of cruising in 6th gear, when I got off the highway to take the back roads into our neighbourhood I had the same thing happen again. Again, I ran a couple of gears long and tried to clear out the intake. Looking back, I'd characterize the trip as mostly loafing along in 6th gear under load (hilly mountainous terrain), interspersed with 4th gear passing up until the last 2 hours of the return trip which was mostly 6th gear loafing with low load - sounds like optimum conditions to frost up the intercooler, then melt it off as the temperatures rose near the end of the day.
I'll add my own theory about why the intercooler retrofits seem to help some people for a year or two (and similarly when new cars weren't typically a problem) - I'm wondering if a clean intercooler has less issues with allowing the condensation a location to attach to the walls of the intercooler. In other words the oil/goop that builds up on the walls of the intercooler are now initiation sites for frost or ice to build up during driving which increases the amount of condensation that is not flowed through the engine (whether as droplets, or in vapour form) during high humidity events, but instead its banked in the intercooler until you stop/park and either ambient conditions or the engine heat melts it and it collects at the low point. Intercooler cleaning isn't an easy thing to try (and I know typically the reason to clean any cooling device is to remove the fouling which acts as insulation and return the cooler back to initial efficiency, which runs counter to the theory that these intercoolers are too efficient which causes them to freeze off) so I doubt anyone would want to test this on their own car.
Second question - I wonder if the cheat programming made it impossible for the LP EGR to work properly (probably, since its purpose was to manage NOx emissions, maybe the LP EGR valve programming was trying to accomplish the NOx targets while the other programming was ignoring the high NOx levels).
As for my car, I'll likely put it up on the ramps and drill a 1/32-1/6" hole so it can drain, I'm in the process of making up my own winter covers for the lower and upper grills (it was only $25 for -75C PVC cloth, now I just have to get my kids to teach me how to run their sewing machines
) and when finances permit there will definitely be a Malone tune, possibly with off-road modifications. I'm curious that there weren't more Calgarians with issues - our temperatures are all over the map when chinooks and winter storms blow in. The coldest weather definitely knocks the humidity out of the air, but the winter storms are usually right around freezing, then a chinook blows in and melts it all off again (over and over and over again through the winter and well into April/May). Temperatures can range from -20C in the morning to well above 10-15C in the afternoon as a chinook rolls in.John
TDI57
Veteran Member
Update:[
My fix, drain it away.
IMG][/IMG]
[/url][/IMG]
Temps have dropped in Columbus OH.
Last night I raised one side of my car to switch to winter tires and heard what sounded like a water leak. Thought is was odd until I thought of my drain hose. Sure enough I checked and water ran out onto my metal drip pan on the garage floor. It was a substantial enough volume to hear dripping into the pan, at least several tablespoons worth.
So glad I have that simple tiny hole. Works as I expected. It is a really good feeling to see that water come out rather than stay in the system, potentially causing hydro-lock.
For the few of us keeping our TDI's, I highly recommend this simple trick.
Like winter or not, here it comes!
STRANGETDI
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2001
- Location
- East Hampton, CT
- TDI
- 2013 Audi A3 S-Line Premium Plus Quattro - APR Stage II
Did you order the fuel nipple from here?
http://www.sullivanproducts.com/Sullivan_Internet_Catalog.pdf
Page 8 of the PDF
http://www.sullivanproducts.com/Sullivan_Internet_Catalog.pdf
Page 8 of the PDF
Last edited:
TDI57
Veteran Member
Yes I did. Great company, I described what I was looking for and they actually shipped to me for no charge!
milleraw
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2003
- Location
- New London, PA
- TDI
- 2010 JSW Silver, Portos, Roof / 2010 JSW Candy White
AHHHHHHHH! Please tell me I am Hydrolocked.....95,000 miles on 2010 TDI sport wager and doing buyback next week.
How do I get the water out of the cylinders. Pull glow plugs?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
How do I get the water out of the cylinders. Pull glow plugs?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
milleraw
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2003
- Location
- New London, PA
- TDI
- 2010 JSW Silver, Portos, Roof / 2010 JSW Candy White
Ok...it appears that my engine is Hydrolocked. T-belt checked. Engine can not be turned by hand. This all happened during starting on a warming day (50F) after a evening in the 20s.
How do I unlock? Pull the glow plugs?
I have tried rotating the engine from the crankshaft. It would not move either direction.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
How do I unlock? Pull the glow plugs?
I have tried rotating the engine from the crankshaft. It would not move either direction.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
bobt2382
Veteran Member - TDIClub Contributor
milleraw,
Check out this video. Yes, he pulls the glow plugs. Also, he drains the intercooler. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Teyq-EdC_s
Good luck, please let us know how everything works out.
Check out this video. Yes, he pulls the glow plugs. Also, he drains the intercooler. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Teyq-EdC_s
Good luck, please let us know how everything works out.
milleraw
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2003
- Location
- New London, PA
- TDI
- 2010 JSW Silver, Portos, Roof / 2010 JSW Candy White
Wow! That was crazy scary...I went from engine is F'd to it runs fine in 5 minutes. Was warm enough today to remove the plugs and crank the engine over. Also pulled the bottom cover and drained the lowest IC hose. It now has a 1/8" hole in it as well. This will not happen again. Car needs to make it to February for buyback.
See link for pictures:
https://goo.gl/photos/fc6G57QieKNhnsae9
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TDI57
Veteran Member
When I see posts like this is reminds me how glad I am that I have my weep hole in mine, I still see water on the ground from time to time. Better on the ground than in my plumbing or cylinders!
GTSLOW
Veteran Member
So mine went down today. Ran for a brief second and died. I've already drained the 2+ cups of water from the IC hose. Now I can't get these damn plastic glow plug bungs off....
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Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
My wife's car ran rough and died on her before Christmas. She was sitting in fairly heavy traffic but no one hit her. Thank goodness. She was able to restart after a few minutes and no issues since then. This is the first stall on either of our cars. Her's goes back to VW the end of Feb, so hope no more issues.
rhaus
Veteran Member
Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but the work outlined on the technical bulletin is covered under the extended warranty that comes with the emissions fix (or at least it is on my 2012 Golf w/ manual transmission). Worth looking into for those of you who kept your cars. With the current cold snap, right now is a good time to drive the car 30-40 minutes before dropping it off at the dealership. They will pull the IC lines off, look for water/ice and will most definitely find it....
SAR_TDI
Member
Hard start and VW upgrade 11/2017
My 2011 manual Jetta Sportswagen had 2 fluid locks from the intercooler that I survived with luck and ignorance. Later, I cut the intercooler hose and inserted a machined aluminum pipe spacer with a 1/4" drain valve screwed into it, operated manually following long drives in cold moist weather. I would get some dribbling out, never a large flow. The VW emissions upgrade was performed in November 2017 with a noticeable decrease in mpg in temperatures below 50 F. When warm, I get about 42 MPG. My wife's car is a 2013 TDI DSG which never had an intercooler fluid collection issue. Her mileage took a 10 MPG drop in cold weather, but gets up to 42 MPG over long trips and warmer temperatures. Looking back, I would drill the 1/8" hole for winter use and plug it with a hose clamp for summer use, or just let the air bleed full time. Thanks for the info on this issue.
My 2011 manual Jetta Sportswagen had 2 fluid locks from the intercooler that I survived with luck and ignorance. Later, I cut the intercooler hose and inserted a machined aluminum pipe spacer with a 1/4" drain valve screwed into it, operated manually following long drives in cold moist weather. I would get some dribbling out, never a large flow. The VW emissions upgrade was performed in November 2017 with a noticeable decrease in mpg in temperatures below 50 F. When warm, I get about 42 MPG. My wife's car is a 2013 TDI DSG which never had an intercooler fluid collection issue. Her mileage took a 10 MPG drop in cold weather, but gets up to 42 MPG over long trips and warmer temperatures. Looking back, I would drill the 1/8" hole for winter use and plug it with a hose clamp for summer use, or just let the air bleed full time. Thanks for the info on this issue.
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
My wife also had a 2013 TDI (GSW, bought back by VW June 27th), 6-sp manual. Never had an intercooler condensate issue with hers either, but my 2011's issues were never fixed even after applying the technical service bulletin. I always wondered what was different between 2011s and 2013s.
calimustang
Veteran Member
- Joined
- May 17, 2010
- Location
- Central FL
- TDI
- 2011 JSW DSG (buyback, RIP), 2014 JSW TDI, 2015 Passat TDI, 2013 Jetta TDI.
Hmm, mines an 2011, never had a issue. Even visited chicago. No issues like ever.