Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

[Victor Ward]

I have a 2013 Jetta and haven't had any problems. I also love learning about and tinkering with cars. If I were to pull the problem hose to have a look inside what should I find? If working correctly it should be bone dry inside, right?

 

[ticketed2much]

I have a 2013 Jetta and haven't had any problems. I also love learning about and tinkering with cars. If I were to pull the problem hose to have a look inside what should I find? If working correctly it should be bone dry inside, right?

It most likely won't be bone dry. You will probably have some oil sludge and water mix. Since you have not experienced a hard start, if you clean it regularly (2-3x yearly) you should be OK. I use a lower grille cover in the winter, clean it summer/fall and haven't had a hard start.

 

[ticketed2much]

I think you may have something there with the EGR behavior. Soon after I had my icing start up problem, I threw a code relating to a sticking EGR valve. We cleaned the throttle valve and the EGR valve. Since then I have not had any icing problems. I am guessing that with these two valves functioning cleanly there may be less of a problem. But it is just a guess with no technical explanation. After 60,000 miles I am glad I cleaned those valves, they were quite dirty. It wasn't that big of a job.

Maybe you could do a egr valve clean DIY, or point the rest of us in the right direction?

 

[Matt927]

Wanted to share my experiences with this. I had several instances which I assumed were caused by the intercooler icing/water ingestion. In short, car would start normally and then shut down within a second or so and then on the subsequent start, car would crank normally, start and then run rough but recover in a very short time. Most recently it happened when I drove to work in sub freezing temp with rain/snow and then parked at work. Temps rose through the day and problem would occur when I went to start vehicle to go home. Maybe two times in the last month.

I took the car in for its first 10,000 mile oil change and let the service advisor know about the problem, I also typed up what exactly was happening and included the TSB for the tech. Received a message on my phone the car was ready to pick up yesterday and said something was replaced/installed and the tech wanted to keep the car overnight from the previous day, but the message was vague. Picked car up this morning, looked at invoice and it stated "customer states the car is running rough, hard start, runs rough for 30 seconds- stalls after a few seconds, was raining snowing out. Road test ok, checked GFF no faults, checked TB found one for that concern, performed TB211301, installed intercooler kit"

I was surprised it was done considering many dealers can not duplicate and therefore won't install. I do not know if anything was found in the intercooler lines. They must of had the kit in stock as there was no wait for it nor did they tell me they were specifically installing it.

Dealer was Douglas VW in Summit, NJ. Specifically took car there instead of original purchasing dealership as they have good service reviews. Oil was also changed with proper gold bottle 507 Castrol. I am very pleased with them.

 

[RES]

Maybe you could do a egr valve clean DIY, or point the rest of us in the right direction?

Removing the EGR valve and throttle valve are part of this write up.

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/i...ve-removal-cjaa-cbea-audi-vw-2-0l-tdi-engine/

 

[ticketed2much]

Removing the EGR valve and throttle valve are part of this write up.

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/i...ve-removal-cjaa-cbea-audi-vw-2-0l-tdi-engine/

Thanks, for some reason I pictured the EGR valve closer to the exhaust.

 

[WH401]

Well the two winters prior to this I've had no issues, this winter is a different story though. I've experienced the intercooler issues 4 times between Thanksgiving and the first weekend in January. Twice it's cut off instantly after starting, and all times it's ran rough. The first time I actually thought it was the battery, but $150 later it still instantly cut off. It wasn't until reading this on here after the 4th time that I understood what was happening. I actually didn't even drive it during the whole, "polar vortex," as I'd just completely lost faith in it so I've been driving my Cummins power Dodge truck the last two weeks. Today I decided to get under the car and drain the intercooler, being as that it hadn't run in two weeks. Upon pulling the hose off, this is what I got out:

That's a 2 qt jug, formerly of OJ. Truthfully that's probably not all the water since some went over top of the oil pan insulation when it drained, so it was probably closer to 5 cups total in water that came out. I'm honestly surprised the thing even ran before. After draining it the car ran fine for 100 miles today and started with no issue anytime. I even rode up to the local VW dealer and took the bottle with me, showed it to them and asked if there was anything they could do. There response was basically, "no," and that it's just because of the cold weather we've had. I love a dealership run by scripted comedians.... Haven't decided yet whether I'll contact VWoA Or not. Honestly I'm a bit apprehensive of even keeping the car now without knowing what kind of long term damage has been done to it by ingesting water, I know it certainly isn't good. What are your thoughts on that matter? Thanks.

 

[ticketed2much]

Well the two winters prior to this I've had no issues, this winter is a different story though. I've experienced the intercooler issues 4 times between Thanksgiving and the first weekend in January. Twice it's cut off instantly after starting, and all times it's ran rough. The first time I actually thought it was the battery, but $150 later it still instantly cut off. It wasn't until reading this on here after the 4th time that I understood what was happening. I actually didn't even drive it during the whole, "polar vortex," as I'd just completely lost faith in it so I've been driving my Cummins power Dodge truck the last two weeks. Today I decided to get under the car and drain the intercooler, being as that it hadn't run in two weeks. Upon pulling the hose off, this is what I got out:



That's a 2 qt jug, formerly of OJ. Truthfully that's probably not all the water since some went over top of the oil pan insulation when it drained, so it was probably closer to 5 cups total in water that came out. I'm honestly surprised the thing even ran before. After draining it the car ran fine for 100 miles today and started with no issue anytime. I even rode up to the local VW dealer and took the bottle with me, showed it to them and asked if there was anything they could do. There response was basically, "no," and that it's just because of the cold weather we've had. I love a dealership run by scripted comedians.... Haven't decided yet whether I'll contact VWoA Or not. Honestly I'm a bit apprehensive of even keeping the car now without knowing what kind of long term damage has been done to it by ingesting water, I know it certainly isn't good. What are your thoughts on that matter? Thanks.

Thats ALOT of water. If it runs fine there should be no long term damage. The only way to tell is do a compression test.

 

[Mfisher]

It most likely won't be bone dry. You will probably have some oil sludge and water mix. Since you have not experienced a hard start, if you clean it regularly (2-3x yearly) you should be OK. I use a lower grille cover in the winter, clean it summer/fall and haven't had a hard start.

I don't think this is accurate... I drove mine less than 50 miles and it had water in it again. Under the right conditions, cosiderable condensation can occur.

In regard to Victor Ward's original question... This occurs in vehicles that are working properly. The design is faulty and they all are at risk.

 

[MonsterTDI09]

Here is a picture EA288 engine from the auto show.

 

[ticketed2much]

I don't think this is accurate... I drove mine less than 50 miles and it had water in it again. Under the right conditions, cosiderable condensation can occur.
In regard to Victor Ward's original question... This occurs in vehicles that are working properly. The design is faulty and they all are at risk.

At risk of what? An iced intercooler? You need a good build-up of water in the intercooler to hydrolock an engine, not a few ounces. Sure everyone is at risk, but with a few precautions it is avoidable for most.

 

[bhtooefr]

It only takes 29.8 cc of water to hydrolock a single cylinder of a 2.0 TDI (((((81 / 2)^2 * π) * 95.5) / 1000) / 16.5), and these engines have a somewhat imbalanced intake system, based on cylinder #3 typically being the one that's worse off in a hydrolock.

29.8 cc is almost exactly one ounce.

 

[Samcar222]

Has anyone with a new revision 10*c TSB kit put it to the test yet? Nice cold snap coming for the next week, cover those intercooler grilles up!

 

[ticketed2much]

It only takes 29.8 cc of water to hydrolock a single cylinder of a 2.0 TDI (((((81 / 2)^2 * π) * 95.5) / 1000) / 16.5), and these engines have a somewhat imbalanced intake system, based on cylinder #3 typically being the one that's worse off in a hydrolock.

29.8 cc is almost exactly one ounce.

But is that ounce in the hose of the intercooler going straight into one cylinder? IMO no. Some will stay in the bottom of the pipe (unless you start your car at WOT), and some will cling to the sides of the pipe/intake. I think there needs to be enough water to almost "clog" the pipe, which would send a slug of water into the intake.

 

[alh583]

I have been researching this problem ever since it occurred on my car and has since 3 different times. I am new to the forum and this is my first post so I have not thoroughly looked through all the information on this topic. However from my researching it seems to me that disabling the EGR system with a tune such as the Malone and then physically removing the system would solve this problem. I was just wondering if this is correct or I have no idea what I am talking about. I understand clearly what is happening just not exactly how, but what I have gather indicates that the EGR system is the problem. Just wondering if this would solve the problem or I am completely clueless. Thanks.

 

[MonsterTDI09]

I have been researching this problem ever since it occurred on my car and has since 3 different times. I am new to the forum and this is my first post so I have not thoroughly looked through all the information on this topic. However from my researching it seems to me that disabling the EGR system with a tune such as the Malone and then physically removing the system would solve this problem. I was just wondering if this is correct or I have no idea what I am talking about. I understand clearly what is happening just not exactly how, but what I have gather indicates that the EGR system is the problem. Just wondering if this would solve the problem or I am completely clueless. Thanks.

Removing the EGR would solve the problem But removing emission controls is breaking the law. Also the engine would take longer to warm up.

 

[Tom S. in Tn.]

Got a dollar to everyone's donut hole the $1,000 intake manifold/shutter actuator assy I just had to install on our 09' Jetta CBEA is directly related to this inter cooler moisture and icing problem described here.

Signed: VW owner for the last f___ time if I can just find a way to rid the motor pool of this one.

 

[MonsterTDI09]

Got a dollar to everyone's donut hole the $1,000 intake manifold/shutter actuator assy I just had to install on our 09' Jetta CBEA is directly related to this inter cooler moisture and icing problem described here.

Signed: VW owner for the last f___ time if I can just find a way to rid the motor pool of this one.

Sorry no way. That actuator controls the flaps in the intake.

If you hate the car so much sell it.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Got a dollar to everyone's donut hole the $1,000 intake manifold/shutter actuator assy I just had to install on our 09' Jetta CBEA is directly related to this inter cooler moisture and icing problem described here.

Signed: VW owner for the last f___ time if I can just find a way to rid the motor pool of this one.

We accept payment via PayPal at the address fred@tdiclub.com

Thanks!

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Just a reminder to everyone who is new to the thread and may be a bit overwhelmed by the volume of information (and misinformation) in 4200 posts, there is an excellent summary/synopsis contained in post #1 including links to the relevant TSBs and pictures.

 

[BT3076]

This is my first post in this thread, Ive skimmed the first few pages and the last (for updated information). Heres my story, I currently have 85k on the clock and bought it new. I haven't had this issue happen until yesterday. I currently live in south philly and it was nearly 50 degrees. I went to move my car and the infamous dead battery scenario was immediately present and happening to my car. I haven't started it since. I read the protocol of draining the IC then trying to start. That will be my next move when all of the snow gets out of here and then I will try and start it again. I bought my car at Young Vw near Bethlehem Pa, does anyone have experience using this dealership with this issue? Im a college student and I cant afford paying out of pocket for this TSB kit, Im going to call them tomorrow and state my case and see what they say. Im not sure what I'll do if they ask for it to be towed in and then have them "look" at it. I do all my maintenance on the car and I don't feel like being run around from the dealer.

Also, I was wondering if anyone had the approximate volume in the combustion chamber when the piston is at TDC in relation to the head and piston. The reason I ask this is, if one experiences the dead battery scenario, then I would assume that whatever volume that is between the piston and head is filled with water. Now, guys have also stated they wait a bit and then restart where they are successful but the car idles rough. It would seem the water would have to pass through the rings and create enough volume for the diesel to mix and start, or the glow plugs could have vaporized some of the water in the cylinder to create enough room as well. You would have water in the diesel regardless, I doubt the glow plugs could vaporize all of the water in the cylinder, if any and that would be my guess as to why why the car idles rough. But saying that, is there any thoughts or experience by activating the glow plugs numerous times might have? I'm just writing down my thoughts as to see if anyone has also thought of these problems as well. Being the water would have to either vaporize from the glow plugs or drain past the rings, is there any thought of any potential damage from those scenarios? I assume there can't be a huge amount of volume being the high c/r on these diesel engines... If these questions were already discussed in the main body of the thread I apologize, I was just throwing stuff out there.

Is there any updates on this overall problem?

 

[bassman5066]

Got a dollar to everyone's donut hole the $1,000 intake manifold/shutter actuator assy I just had to install on our 09' Jetta CBEA is directly related to this inter cooler moisture and icing problem described here.

Signed: VW owner for the last f___ time if I can just find a way to rid the motor pool of this one.

Doubt it. Mine failed and I never experienced any icing events. It gets stuck shut from the sooty/oily junk that builds up in that area from EGR. The original iteration of the part was designed with plastic gears and that's what fails. The next generation of the part was designed with a metal housing and gears. I was between warranties (36k-60k) so it shouldn't have been covered but VWOA picked up the tab for the part and I had to pay labor.

The bastards charged me 2 hours for labor on a part that can be swapped out in 15 minutes. IIRC the part was around $350 because I asked if I could have the part to install myself. So $200 for labor or $350 for the part. Pretty easy to figure out which one I picked.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[Tom S. in Tn.]

We accept payment via PayPal at the address fred@tdiclub.com
Thanks!

Sounds like the same smart crap denial from VW, and despite the pathetic engineering, piss assed public relations are the major cause of negative product loyalty. This is our second tdi since 04' and definitely the very last if we can only figure a way to get rid of this rushed to production pos in a market glutted with tdi's that can't be given away. Even a damn insurance claim is less than .50 on the dollar.
Hope you don't feel too big to fail in NA.
Tom S. in Tn.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Sounds like the same smart crap denial from VW, and despite the pathetic engineering, piss assed public relations are the major cause of negative product loyalty. This is our second tdi since 04' and definitely the very last if we can only figure a way to get rid of this rushed to production pos in a market glutted with tdi's that can't be given away. Even a damn insurance claim is less than .50 on the dollar.
Hope you don't feel too big to fail in NA.
Tom S. in Tn.

That doesn't really explain why you think the actuator is responsible for this phenomenon called intercooler icing (or more accurately, condensation).

 

[Tom S. in Tn.]

Doubt it. Mine failed and I never experienced any icing events. It gets stuck shut from the sooty/oily junk that builds up in that area from EGR. The original iteration of the part was designed with plastic gears and that's what fails. The next generation of the part was designed with a metal housing and gears. I was between warranties (36k-60k) so it shouldn't have been covered but VWOA picked up the tab for the part and I had to pay labor.

The bastards charged me 2 hours for labor on a part that can be swapped out in 15 minutes. IIRC the part was around $350 because I asked if I could have the part to install myself. So $200 for labor or $350 for the part. Pretty easy to figure out which one I picked.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Glad you got something from them. We couldn't even get a rat nest cleaned from around the oil cap during an oil change.

If oil and egr contamination can be a problem, then why can't moisture in the intake tract destroy the shutter and actuator? Tom S.

 

[Tom S. in Tn.]

That doesn't really explain why you think the actuator is responsible for this phenomenon called intercooler icing (or more accurately, condensation).

OK professor.......... What's the solution to the condensation phenomenon??

I'll continue the bet that the answer has something to do with my bank account.
Tom S. In Tn.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Explained in post #1.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

That doesn't really explain why you think the actuator is responsible for this phenomenon called intercooler icing (or more accurately, condensation).

I think it was I who posited that the EGR actuator could be a potential cause because my IC kit-equipped 2011 Golf still has occasional issues with condensation in the IC hose, whereas my wife's non-IC kit-equipped 2013 Golf has never had an issue.

We know that disabling the EGR will "cure" the issue at the expense of illegally modifying the emission controls.

My theory is that a bad or sticking actuator is not allowing the EGR to work as programmed by the ECU.

It's only a theory based on anecdotal evidence.

 

[Tom S. in Tn.]

Explained in post #1.

Oh, sorry VD. Wrong again.
The correct answer is " Asain "
Tom S. In Tn.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I think it was I who posited that the EGR actuator could be a potential cause because my IC kit-equipped 2011 Golf still has occasional issues with condensation in the IC hose, whereas my wife's non-IC kit-equipped 2013 Golf has never had an issue.
We know that disabling the EGR will "cure" the issue at the expense of illegally modifying the emission controls.
My theory is that a bad or sticking actuator is not allowing the EGR to work as programmed by the ECU.
It's only a theory based on anecdotal evidence.

I don't think he's talking about the EGR actuator...