Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

kjclow

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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Considering that Audi, VW, and Diamler worked together to come up with completely new engines and emissions system in less than three years, I'm surprised that there have not been more issues.
 

bassman5066

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Apr 8, 2011
Location
Honey Brook PA
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2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
Considering that Audi, VW, and Diamler worked together to come up with completely new engines and emissions system in less than three years, I'm surprised that there have not been more issues.
They had more time than 3 years. They knew these emissions regulations were coming at some point. And I wouldn't say they completely redesigned the engine. Its more or less a 2.0L PD with a different head and fuel system. The emissions components are another story, but again, they had plenty of time and real world test data on other DPF equipped vehicles, so I still don't buy that excuse.

I once read a quote on an IT guy's desk: "Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part". I think that applies here.

One thing I will give them is the fact that they're not the only company having DPF issues, so that part really wasn't their fault per se. HPFPs and IC icing are another story though. Simply not enough real world testing.

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MonsterTDI09

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2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
My 09 Jetta has been sitting on a lift at the dealership with the top if the engine removed since 11/29. You guessed it, bent rod from hydrolock. Service manager, VW, ext warranty company in a stalemate. Serv mangr. says replace all rods and put winter kit on. VW says out of warranty (64K), ext warranty company says we'll pay for one rod. UGH!
So... they agreed on one rod and a winter kit. The rod is on uber back order and won't arrive sometime pass Christmas. At least I'm saving mileage on my car....
Service manager has been great about all this, as far as keeping me informed on progress and wanting to fix it right the first time We'll see...
What the hell is that crap one rod. You can't just replace one rod. They still have to pull them all anyway to match the weight of the new one. So tell them you want a match set.Make sure they replace all the TYY bolts for the head and rod caps. Tell them you to see all the used one's.
 

MonsterTDI09

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
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2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
The icing problem is tough one to totally cure. With out having to jump throw hoops with the EPA. What they came up with is pretty clever but not perfect. I think louvers in front of the IC would do a better job. I can see why they didn't choose this, having the louvers fail close position in the summer time would cook some motors.
 

SkeeterMark

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Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Location
North Branch, MN
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2013 Jetta TDI 6M
One month since my IC update was installed. I cannot report any problems since, so it must do some good, as I was getting an almost daily stumble to some degree on starts previous to the update.
 

bmwM5power

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Rochester NY
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15 GSW TDI S 6MT 02 JETTA TDI GLS 5MT 15 GOLF TDI SE 6MT 15 GOLF TDI SEL DSG
One month since my IC update was installed. I cannot report any problems since, so it must do some good, as I was getting an almost daily stumble to some degree on starts previous to the update.
They put new clean ic , what do you expect? Wait till you go through the winter and then check it out
 

PlaneCrazy

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Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
One month since my IC update was installed. I cannot report any problems since, so it must do some good, as I was getting an almost daily stumble to some degree on starts previous to the update.
Well I had my car in for service at the dealer yesterday, and in spite of having the "Quebec kit" (as they call the IC kit at my dealer), the IC hose was FULL OF ICE!!! It had been really cold the few days leading up to the service visit, and I again complained of rough starts.

So if you ask me, the kit seems like a band-aid on the right arm for an injury on the left arm: it does diddly squat.

And their cure is a joke: they removed the air intake duct between the air intake and the filter, just like the band-aid cure they recommended while folks were waiting for their kit. Moreover, the service note said that this was done on VW recommendation, to prevent water from getting into the intake.

VW themselves seem completely oblivious to the fact that:

1) hydrocarbon combustion produces water vapour;
2) the water vapour will be present in the exhaust;
3) if you recycle a part of the exhaust gasses into the intake, you're injecting water vapour;
4) if you cool air flow, that water vapour will condense out, especially if there's a pressure drop;
5) condensed water vapour will freeze if it's below freezing, and may pool otherwise under the right conditions;
6) the frozen water from the recycled exhaust will thaw if the car is parked in a warm garage;
7) the melted water or pooled water will get sucked into the engine while trying to start, or under wide-open throttle.

In other words, VW Canada technicians haven't a clue how a diesel engine processes its fuel, and have even less of a clue about how their emissions system works :rolleyes:
 

cooke6

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Location
St. John's, NL
TDI
2010 Jetta Sedan
Hi folks. I was recently struck with the issue so thought I'd chime in as well. Bought my 10' in Houston in August of that year, just after relocating there indefinitely. Ended up moving back to Canada Dec. 2012 and imported the car. Never had an issue last winter, but luck has run out it seems. To make matters worse because I crossed the warranty kill zone (US-Canada border) now both VWoA and VWoC are giving me the cold shoulder. I've got both dealerships involved (Houston and local Canadian one) and seemingly batting for me but it does not look good.

I have a couple of questions, apologies if these have been mentioned but I simply cannot wade through 4000 posts.
1. Can this even be argued as a safety issue with NHTSA? Seemingly the real problem only occurs when parked, so if this is the case I can't see much traction being gained there. Unless of course, if there is significant ice buildup, then while driving somehow enough of the melting ice gets into the engine and causes a failure while driving in heavy traffic, but I don't know if that is physically possible.
2.Many seem to be of the opinion that the new IC is not worth it, since it does not completely eliminate the issue. However, if I am told about the TSB and decline, then have a subsequent failure I am most definitely on my own. If I accept though, and have a failure, is there any recourse against VW?

If these have already been discussed and someone knows the post# please direct me there and I will edit out the query. Thanks!
 

PlaneCrazy

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Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
Hi folks. I was recently struck with the issue so thought I'd chime in as well. Bought my 10' in Houston in August of that year, just after relocating there indefinitely. Ended up moving back to Canada Dec. 2012 and imported the car. Never had an issue last winter, but luck has run out it seems. To make matters worse because I crossed the warranty kill zone (US-Canada border) now both VWoA and VWoC are giving me the cold shoulder. I've got both dealerships involved (Houston and local Canadian one) and seemingly batting for me but it does not look good.

I have a couple of questions, apologies if these have been mentioned but I simply cannot wade through 4000 posts.
1. Can this even be argued as a safety issue with NHTSA? Seemingly the real problem only occurs when parked, so if this is the case I can't see much traction being gained there. Unless of course, if there is significant ice buildup, then while driving somehow enough of the melting ice gets into the engine and causes a failure while driving in heavy traffic, but I don't know if that is physically possible.
2.Many seem to be of the opinion that the new IC is not worth it, since it does not completely eliminate the issue. However, if I am told about the TSB and decline, then have a subsequent failure I am most definitely on my own. If I accept though, and have a failure, is there any recourse against VW?

If these have already been discussed and someone knows the post# please direct me there and I will edit out the query. Thanks!
No it doesn't only occur when parked. If there's sufficient water, and you step on it to pass another vehicle, you can be rewarded by a sudden power loss as the engine swallows a slug of water. It's happened to me several times. It tends to only happen in warmer months though. At this time of the year, mostly it's ice, and that ice typically melts in a heated garage, or if you park the car all day and there's a temperature rise above freezing. So far I haven't heard of ice buildup enough to completely block the hose.

Some people are saying "drain regularly" but some of our cars make water fairly frequently. Mine typically will make enough water in warmer months to have a power loss at full throttle every 200 km or so... which is exactly the length of my commute. Similarly, one 200 km drive in freezing weather and parking in my garage will generate a hard start. And this is WITH the IC kit installed. I don't heat my garage but typically in winter it ranges from 0-10C inside. So if it's at or just above freezing I'm usually OK the next morning. But if I plug in the block heater, forget it.

Thing is, I didn't spend $30k for a car that I had to crawl under every day to disconnect and drain a hose (I'll have to spring for 2micron's invention when I'm a bit more flush). I typically leave the house at 7 am and am usually not home by 6:30 pm. So without 2micron's drain valve, no way I'm draining every day, I just don't have the time or energy.

To add insult to injury on the inspection yesterday they found that my sunroof no longer works. Not an emergency to fix at this time of the year, but the overall reliability of this German-assembled car has been less than stellar. In comparison, my wife's Mexican-assembled wagon so far has been flawless and she loves the thing. My relationship to my Golf is love-hate. Love driving it, but the aggravation is starting to pile up.

In your case if VW coughs up for the IC kit, I'd take it anyway. One thing's certain, it may not help, but it most likely won't hurt either.
 

cooke6

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Location
St. John's, NL
TDI
2010 Jetta Sedan
No it doesn't only occur when parked. If there's sufficient water, and you step on it to pass another vehicle, you can be rewarded by a sudden power loss as the engine swallows a slug of water. It's happened to me several times.
Well F me so that's what that is...I don't know about every 200km, as I usually try to sip as little fuel as possible (reason behind getting a TDI). However it has happened enough that now I make sure to feed in the throttle a bit slower when going to WOT (or close to it).
It tends to only happen in warmer months though. At this time of the year, mostly it's ice, and that ice typically melts in a heated garage, or if you park the car all day and there's a temperature rise above freezing. So far I haven't heard of ice buildup enough to completely block the hose.
Makes sense, we had some cold temps (-10C) followed by rapid thaw up to +5C within 24hrs. I imagine that created quite a healthy mouthfull. I can only go by the service rep's description, she said she had photos so I will try to put those up if they are indeed substantial.
In your case if VW coughs up for the IC kit, I'd take it anyway. One thing's certain, it may not help, but it most likely won't hurt either.
Yea, at this point I'm not counting on it, but as I stated in (2) I don't want to decline and have it bite me later. At least if I go ahead with the IC I may have a leg to stand on...maybe not though, who knows. Luckily I stashed away some oil money made in Houston before going back to the meager earnings of a student.
Thanks for the detailed reply, greatly appreciated!! All the best getting your other issues resolved as well.
 

Das Auto

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Location
Northern Kentucky
TDI
09 Jetta
What the hell is that crap one rod. You can't just replace one rod. They still have to pull them all anyway to match the weight of the new one. So tell them you want a match set.Make sure they replace all the TYY bolts for the head and rod caps. Tell them you to see all the used one's.
Its like talking to a politician, they hear what they want to hear and don't give a $hit about what you have to say. When (if) I get it back, the first vibration I feel, its going back...
 

bdisco

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Location
Flashing my lights behind you, CT
TDI
'10 4dr Golf & '12 T-Reg.
Did VW design and engineer our motors to ingest 'some' water through the intake inter cooler? If they did then there is no defect and everything is operating within original design parameters. However if our motors weren't meant to compress water passed our piston rings and valves well then "Wolfsburg, we have a problem..."

(posted in hiccup thread)
 

VeeDubTDI

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Springfield, VA
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‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Did VW design the engine to hydro lock randomly during the winter? I doubt they intended to, but it seems as if they did! ;)
 

SkeeterMark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Location
North Branch, MN
TDI
2013 Jetta TDI 6M
They put new clean ic , what do you expect? Wait till you go through the winter and then check it out
Are you saying my new car did not come with a new clean ic? Why did the original, when new and clean, suffer from the icing affliction last winter far moreso than the upgraded one?

I am not saying this is a fix all and no one will have problems if they get the upgrade (as obviously some are reporting), I am just reporting that so far, mine is helping alleviate the issue at this point. I think it's fair to hear from those not experiencing issues just as much as the squeaky wheels reporting it is not working.

And who knows, I may become one of the squeaky wheels, as I will also report if the issues return.
 

cooke6

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Location
St. John's, NL
TDI
2010 Jetta Sedan
It seems absolutely insane to me also, that everyone I speak to insists on reading from the same BS list of powertrain components to claim that this is not covered under that warranty. Wha?? So if you are so unfortunate to have a hydro-lock and blow your engine, from that perspective since it was the intercooler that caused it is considered out of warranty??
The way I see it, there is already precedence set in the courts for vehicle modifications, stating that if the modified component is deemed to be the cause of a failure, then the warranty is nullified. So how then does this relationship not hold true for normal warranty repairs!?
 

kjclow

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Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
The only thing that I came up with is that the water accumulation is a by product of the engine combustion and not a failure of the engine itself. The resulting engine issues from the water ingestion are therefore not not covered as part of the drive train warranty. I don't agree, just stated how I assume VW may be defending their position.
 

cooke6

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Location
St. John's, NL
TDI
2010 Jetta Sedan
Correct, except in cases where the water does result in engine failure via hydro-lock bending almost everything.

Actually, this is not even really a warranty issue at all, since warranties are in place to cover defects, not gross negligence in engineering design. What a total farce.
 

bassman5066

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Apr 8, 2011
Location
Honey Brook PA
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2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
Correct, except in cases where the water does result in engine failure via hydro-lock bending almost everything.

Actually, this is not even really a warranty issue at all, since warranties are in place to cover defects, not gross negligence in engineering design. What a total farce.
One could easily argue such a design flaw is a defect. Either way, they will continue to play dumb. Its a shame, but that's just the direction VW has gone for a while now.

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Campbellonh

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2003
Location
New Hampshire
TDI
formerly:Passat, 96, white and 10 Jetta, white gold
Completely cover your intercoolers!

In my opinion, the original 0C kit allows too much intercooling at cold temps, and the 10C kit will probably continue to condense water in some conditions even with the intercooler mostly bypassed, albiet at a slower rate than before.

If you have an original kit, beware of future icing. I also recommend pulling your intercooler hose and checking for water... it maybe have been building up at a slower rate than before, but still building up, just waiting to be blown into the engine.
What exactly do you mean by completely covering the intercooler? We just got the 10c kit put on. We have not driven it much since then but now I am nervous.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Springfield, VA
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See how your 10C kit does for you. I'd pull the intercooler hose periodically and check for water to see how well the kit is performing. If you still have condensation building up, then I would cover the entire front face of the intercooler with Coroplast or something similar.
 

MonsterTDI09

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Location
NoVa/NJ
TDI
2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
What exactly do you mean by completely covering the intercooler? We just got the 10c kit put on. We have not driven it much since then but now I am nervous.
The kit does the same thing as blocking the I/C. When the kit opens up it's by passing part of the I/C.Now you have smaller surface area to take the heat out of the air. I hope this helps.
 

RES

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Sep 21, 1999
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TRUMBULL,CT. USA
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2000 Jetta TDI, 1997 Passat (Totaled in Accident) 2010 Jetta Sportwagon TDI
Kit Identification

How can you distinguish the 0 degree kit from the 10 degree kit? I am thinking of buying the kit ($343) but I want to make sure I have the latest one. The part # they list is 1K0198803B. Was there an "A" version?
 

DerekG

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Location
Oklahoma
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'13 4dr Golf TDI 6-speed manual
How can you distinguish the 0 degree kit from the 10 degree kit? I am thinking of buying the kit ($343) but I want to make sure I have the latest one. The part # they list is 1K0198803B. Was there an "A" version?
Interested in this as well. Anyone have the full TSB for the 0 degree kit including the part#?

I just got my car back after having the 10 degree kit installed and had them print me off the current TSB as well as the 10 degree kit installation instructions (~ 10 pages or so). I can post pics of my work order along with the TSB if anyone is interested.

Car worked perfect during the 75 mile drive home from the dealer. I drove it today in the rain with temps hovering around 30-32 degrees; temps should dip slightly lower tonight so we'll see if it starts in the morning.

I'm due for my 10k mile service in about 1500 miles and I'll have them check the IC pipes for water and report back here.
 

RES

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Sep 21, 1999
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TRUMBULL,CT. USA
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2000 Jetta TDI, 1997 Passat (Totaled in Accident) 2010 Jetta Sportwagon TDI
Interested in this as well. Anyone have the full TSB for the 0 degree kit including the part#?

I just got my car back after having the 10 degree kit installed and had them print me off the current TSB as well as the 10 degree kit installation instructions (~ 10 pages or so). I can post pics of my work order along with the TSB if anyone is interested.

Car worked perfect during the 75 mile drive home from the dealer. I drove it today in the rain with temps hovering around 30-32 degrees; temps should dip slightly lower tonight so we'll see if it starts in the morning.

I'm due for my 10k mile service in about 1500 miles and I'll have them check the IC pipes for water and report back here.
I am definitely interested in seeing both of those items (current TSB and Work Order).
 

roostre

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Puget Sound, WA
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2012 Golf TDI DSG
Thanks "DerekG" for the post above showing your Work Order and a link to the full TSB.

What I was wondering (from your post quoted below) is how you knew you were getting a 10 degree kit and not a 0 degree kit and if there was another document describing the "10 degree kit installation instructions" besides the TSB you posted above.

..... I just got my car back after having the 10 degree kit installed and had them print me off the current TSB as well as the 10 degree kit installation instructions (~ 10 pages or so) ......
 
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VeeDubTDI

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Thanks for posting the most recent TSB. I will attach it to post #1 in this thread.
 

DerekG

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Location
Oklahoma
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'13 4dr Golf TDI 6-speed manual
Thanks "DerekG" for the post above showing your Work Order and a link to the full TSB.

What I was wondering (from your post quoted below) is how you knew you were getting a 10 degree kit and not a 0 degree kit and if there was another document describing the "10 degree kit installation instructions" besides the TSB you posted above.
Well, I explained to the service guy that I knew of the initial TSB listed in post #1 of this thread and that VW had done a revision to the kit recently and I wanted the newly revised kit. He assured me that they would in fact order the revised version of the intercooler kit, but he didn't literally say it was the "10 degree kit", that was a bit of assumption on my part.

**Edit- just looked at the TSB again and on the top of page 2 it says, "Install revised charge air cooler kit P/N 1K0 198 803B".

The fact that he knew of the original kit and that it had been revised recently has me fairly confident that it was the 10 degree kit. Also as VeeDubTDI said, the "B" on the end of the part # could indicate that it is the revised version as well.

@VeeDubTDI

No prob! Glad to help


also......drove the car around town today after sitting all night with temps around 30 degrees F. It has been raining all day with temps ranging from 30-36 degrees F, and the car performed flawlessly without a hiccup of any sort. Should see lows in the mid-upper 20's tomorrow and Monday morning so we'll see how it handles that.
 
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