Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

DubFamily

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Location
Swan Point, MD
TDI
2014 BMW 328D xDrive
Not to derail here so I'll ask and drop it. What do you think of the CC?
Overall it's pretty nice, a little quirky but in a cool way; I'll post a mini comparo on a new thread in a bit.

Fuel supply issues should have stored trouble codes.
It did, the biggest concern seems to be that "just" the pressure valve could not be what's causing the symptoms I have (and he checked for IC issues so it isn't that either), so there is something more wrong with it as well and they are trying to troubleshoot that.

The Pressure valve alone does cause low fuel rail pressure and may lead to HPFP failure if left alone; just something to keep in mind for everyone. On my car the rail pressure was at exactly 8 Bar and fluctuating down to 7.9/7.8 Bar intermittently before he swapped the valve out. Minimum pressure is 8 Bar for proper operation. Once he swapped it my car was holding about 8.5 Bar iirc. :(

I'll close out "my" info in this thread once i have details, I may start a new thread as well but I wanted to add the info here as well because my symptoms were nearly identical to the icing issue; I even brought them a copy of the TSB when i brought the car in to them. Because of what others on here are experiencing may actually not be IC icing, especially if they've already had the TSB done; it may be similar to what my car is doing instead.
 
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I am CDN Josh

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Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Location
Beaverton, OR
TDI
2011 JSW DSG, 2015 MB GLK250
Just got my car back today after having the TSB done. Won't really know how it performs in the cold until I drive it back up into Canada next winter.
 

toehead

Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Location
Braintree MA
TDI
2012 MK6 Golf TDI
Update: Got the car back, with the intercooler kit clearly installed.

One thing that stuck me as odd is that the oil was changed as well.

The service manager told me they called VWoA and were directed to install the kit right away.
Anyway, confirmation that quirk in Braintree will install this on a MY12 car with minimal difficulty.
 

Thunder Chicken

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Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Location
Sioux Lookout, Ontario
TDI
2012 Golf Wagon
Well, after about 5000km of highway driving since the IC update in temps from 0C to -40C, snow, freezing rain and fog, parked overnight in the heated hanger, I took the intercooler hoses apart and found no water at all. In fact, there was a bit of oil in the hose but it was good ole black oil. No signs of water in it at all. Before the update, the hose had a fair bit of water and sludgy oil (evident water/oil mix). With the range of temps/conditions i've had, I would have expected to find a little water, or at least signs that water had been there (the sludgy looking oil residue) but none.
I hope this update has fixed this issue. Time to hit the highway again, another 1200km trip coming up.........
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Update: Got the car back, with the intercooler kit clearly installed.

One thing that stuck me as odd is that the oil was changed as well.

The service manager told me they called VWoA and were directed to install the kit right away.
Anyway, confirmation that quirk in Braintree will install this on a MY12 car with minimal difficulty.
The oil being changed is a good thing because there could be water contamination in the oil. When water is ingested by the engine, it can leak past the rings and get into the oil sump.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Just curious since I've not had any problems, but has anyone gotten the IC update covered outside of warranty? I just passed 50K miles on my JSW and would hate to have to pay out of pocket to get a known problem fixed.
 

gumaku1

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2010
Location
Ohio
TDI
2010 Sportwagen TDI - DSG
Thunderchicken, can you take some pictures of your kit installed and post them up? I would like to see if there were any updates to the latest kit being installed from the one I had installed a while ago.
 

HRC-E.B.

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Location
Montreal, Canada
TDI
2012 Golf TDI, 6MT
Well, it happened to me on Sunday! I had driven the car a very long way from Richmond, VA to Montreal, Canada (about 1,200 km or close to 1,000 miles), with the last 300 or so miles in snow flurries at temperature hovering around or just below freezing point on Saturday night.

Lo and behold, on Sunday afternoon, after leaving the car parked for the night, I tried starting it. It turned over briefly but then stuttered violently and shut down. I tried starting it again (I just learned by reading this thread that maybe I shouldn't have...) and it failed to start on 3-4 attempts. It finally started and than ran on a pretty rough idle for maybe 20 seconds, before settling into a normal idle.

The car has been running normally (as far as I can tell) since then. I have nevertheless called my dealer to book an appointment to have the car checked over and have the IC recall kit installed, which should be done tomorrow.

I am a bit worried after having read this thread that I may have damaged my car when it stuttered violently and stopped, and when I then tried to start it again. Is there any way it can be diagnosed (i.e., is there any way to make sure that the pistons, rods, head gasket, etc.) have not been damaged by the incident?

There would be nothing worse than having damaged the engine slightly only for it to break on me later on when I am out of warranty...

Thanks for your insight!
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
If it's running good the odds of any damage are low but all the same I would demand they do a compression check.

If there is any damage a compression check should show it. Even if it's not needed, make VW pay for it.
 

HRC-E.B.

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Location
Montreal, Canada
TDI
2012 Golf TDI, 6MT
If it's running good the odds of any damage are low but all the same I would demand they do a compression check.

If there is any damage a compression check should show it. Even if it's not needed, make VW pay for it.
Thanks. I will ask for it.
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
Thanks. I will ask for it.
I don't want to question your knowledge here. You may be fully aware of what happens when water is ingested. All the same I will be redundant. If you are fully aware please no offense meant.

It will be good to have a valid argument for demanding they do the compression test. If they ask "why" you should be able to say "why".

Water doesn't compress like fuel does. When the piston comes up and there is water, bam, it stops. That is what you experienced. Technically it's possible that when this happens you could bend a connecting rod. If one is bent the result most likely will be a noticeable loss of compression.

I would simply repeat over and over "how do you know nothing was bent"?
 

HRC-E.B.

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Location
Montreal, Canada
TDI
2012 Golf TDI, 6MT
I don't want to question your knowledge here. You may be fully aware of what happens when water is ingested. All the same I will be redundant. If you are fully aware please no offense meant.

It will be good to have a valid argument for demanding they do the compression test. If they ask "why" you should be able to say "why".

Water doesn't compress like fuel does. When the piston comes up and there is water, bam, it stops. That is what you experienced. Technically it's possible that when this happens you could bend a connecting rod. If one is bent the result most likely will be a noticeable loss of compression.

I would simply repeat over and over "how do you know nothing was bent"?
That is exactly my concern and why I would like to make sure that nothing bad happened.

I called the dealer this morning to ask for the comp test, and the service technician wasn't exactly helpful. He says they are investigating the trouble and will get back to me when they have more info...
 

HRC-E.B.

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Location
Montreal, Canada
TDI
2012 Golf TDI, 6MT
Funny,

Just as I typed this message, the tech from the dealer called me. He confirmed that they found traces of humidity in the intercooler and will be installing the recall kit (good news!).

He also said they checked compression and that everything checked out. I probed him for more details and said I'd like to have the results for each of the cylinders. He fumbled a bit, paused, and then said that it measured at 39 bar.

I asked if this was exactly the same for all 4 cylinders (would have seemed unusual to me...) and he said yes.

It would have been hard for me to question him much beyond that point....

Thoughts?
 

Loafing

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Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Location
Hamilton
TDI
09 Mexican Jet
to: HRC-E.B.
IMO you did not have hydro-lock because you were able to turn over the engine freely. Most likely just a case of water ingestion rendering air/fuel mix incombustible. I had hydro-lock on starting about 40K km ago, was lucky not to have burnt out the starter (thought it was dead battery & boosted with friends car), and have no evidence of damage, runs quiet, continued great fuel consumption (main reason for purchase decision). I believe hydro-lock causes damage mainly when engine is running at normal operating revs where inertia (mass x velocity) would be the killer because of rotation speed.
By all means, ask for compression test but most important, don't worry, IMO most likely nothing has been damaged.
 

Conrad -JSW

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Dec 9, 2011
Location
Northern Illinois
TDI
2012 JSW DSG
Funny,

Just as I typed this message, the tech from the dealer called me. He confirmed that they found traces of humidity in the intercooler and will be installing the recall kit (good news!).

He also said they checked compression and that everything checked out. I probed him for more details and said I'd like to have the results for each of the cylinders. He fumbled a bit, paused, and then said that it measured at 39 bar.

I asked if this was exactly the same for all 4 cylinders (would have seemed unusual to me...) and he said yes.

It would have been hard for me to question him much beyond that point....

Thoughts?

I smell BS.
 

HRC-E.B.

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Location
Montreal, Canada
TDI
2012 Golf TDI, 6MT
to: HRC-E.B.
IMO you did not have hydro-lock because you were able to turn over the engine freely. Most likely just a case of water ingestion rendering air/fuel mix incombustible. I had hydro-lock on starting about 40K km ago, was lucky not to have burnt out the starter (thought it was dead battery & boosted with friends car), and have no evidence of damage, runs quiet, continued great fuel consumption (main reason for purchase decision). I believe hydro-lock causes damage mainly when engine is running at normal operating revs where inertia (mass x velocity) would be the killer because of rotation speed.
By all means, ask for compression test but most important, don't worry, IMO most likely nothing has been damaged.
Thanks. This does make sense. If water ingestion was indeed the culprit (would also make sense, given the symptoms), is it necessary to have the oil changed? I had it changed last week a couple of days prior to the incident, actually.

But since the oil is being kept in the vehicle for long intervals, I want to make sure whether I must request that they change it or whether it should still be ok to use as is.

Thanks for your insight!
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
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2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
Or just drive the car long enough for the moisture to come out of the oil, it'd doesn't take much water to stop the engine, what 2-3Tbls? 2-3Tbs over 4L of oil isn't much.

Diesel from your regen evaporates from your engine oil water can do the same
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
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Location
Newark, OH
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The only way a CJAA would be at 39 bar is if either there's something incompressible in the cylinder, or the rings are stuck due to WVO usage.
 

kjclow

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Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
The only way a CJAA would be at 39 bar is if either there's something incompressible in the cylinder, or the rings are stuck due to WVO usage.
What would typical compression numbers look like for the CJAA? If the compression ratio of the engine is 16.5:1, then would ideal compression be equal to 16.5 bar? Assuming no loss for rings and cylinder gap.
 

HRC-E.B.

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Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Location
Montreal, Canada
TDI
2012 Golf TDI, 6MT
What would typical compression numbers look like for the CJAA? If the compression ratio of the engine is 16.5:1, then would ideal compression be equal to 16.5 bar? Assuming no loss for rings and cylinder gap.
I am pretty sure that this is not how it works. 16.5:1 only means that the volume of the chamber when the piston is at bottom dead center is reduced to 1/16.5 of that volume when the piston is at top dead center.

How much PSI or Bar that would represent if there is only air in the chamber I have no clue.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
So for a visual aid: You have one liter (a quart for the metrically challanged) of air that you're compressing to 60 ml or about the size of a shot glass. That sounds like one hell of a lot of pressure. No wonder these engines still have a cast iron block.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Location
Springfield, VA
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Compression should be in the low 30s (BAR) or mid 400s (PSI).

39 BAR is 565 PSI and is waaay too high for a normal TDI. You should call BS on your service writer (or whoever told you that).

Yes, you should also have the oil changed due to possible water contamination.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
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Location
Newark, OH
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None
31 bar is the maximum for a new engine, although after breaking in, it may go a bar or 2 higher. Then again, if those are also the old ALH specs, it'll probably be towards the lower end of that as new - the ALH is much higher compression, 19.5:1 instead of 16.5:1 - so going over 31 may mean that it is too high even after break-in.

The full specs...

CBEA and CJAA
New 25 to 31 bar (363-450 psig)
Wear limit 19 bar (276 psig)
max difference cylinder to cylinder 5 bar (73 psig)

Are the Bentley limits. These are pretty wide and generous limits, in my (not so valuable) opinion.

They are exactly the same as for a BRM, BEW, and ALH.
 

Loafing

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Location
Hamilton
TDI
09 Mexican Jet
Thanks. This does make sense. If water ingestion was indeed the culprit (would also make sense, given the symptoms), is it necessary to have the oil changed? I had it changed last week a couple of days prior to the incident, actually.

But since the oil is being kept in the vehicle for long intervals, I want to make sure whether I must request that they change it or whether it should still be ok to use as is.

Thanks for your insight!
I strongly doubt the IC water issue increases water in the crankcase and don't see a need for an oil change. No doubt, some water always gets into the oil from the combustion chamber (in normal operation) and oils include detergents to deal with that.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Joined
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Location
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I strongly doubt the IC water issue increases water in the crankcase and don't see a need for an oil change. No doubt, some water always gets into the oil from the combustion chamber (in normal operation) and oils include detergents to deal with that.
M'kay
 
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