Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

[reiddo1]

Intercooler freezing happened to my dad - who is not internet connected - a couple of weeks ago. Replacement was covered under warranty. Failure mode was the MIL and flashing glow plug lamps happening while driving, accompanied by limp mode.

2011 Golf TDI, approx 50,000 km, Kitchener ON.

My 2010 Golf Wagon had a intercooler modification last week as well with 47,000 km; flashing glow plug light; cold start for a second or so and then shut down; further attempts to start resulted in what seem to be an almost dead battery showing as very low starter rpm's. Dealer did the fix and with only 100 more km no further symptoms. My wife drives this car and I too wonder if a lot of the problem isn't coming from her driving style. My 2001 A4 with 407,000 km has not had this problem with long runs and more aggressive driving. I remember the A4 having intake plugging issues prior to low sulphur fuel and EGR mods. At that time most believed a heavy foot on the go pedal was the cure. My A4 certainly benefited from this with absolutely no intake manifold work whatsoever. Maybe higher air flows through the intercooler hose would keep the moisture in suspension and not allow it to settle out with inevitable freezing in colt temperatures.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Can't answer the questions properly ... No TDIclub username.

Put "GoFaster's Dad" in the username field

 

[GoFaster]

Done!

 

[skoopman]

Intercooler Kit Installed

Just had dealership install intercooler kit in my 2010 6 speed Golf Wagon here in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. No change in performance at all.

Car starts fine, but has no acceleration unless I drop the pedal to the floor and rev the engine to 4000rpm, even then there's a delay.

Cruise control also cuts out when holding to accelerate. Happens in every gear.

Car is going back to dealership.

Gotta love how there's no recall on this. They just hope everyone has this issue out of warranty.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

Just had dealership install intercooler kit in my 2010 6 speed Golf Wagon here in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. No change in performance at all.

Car starts fine, but has no acceleration unless I drop the pedal to the floor and rev the engine to 4000rpm, even then there's a delay.

Cruise control also cuts out when holding to accelerate. Happens in every gear.

Car is going back to dealership.

Gotta love how there's no recall on this. They just hope everyone has this issue out of warranty.

Definitely not normal. My kit had no measurable impact on performance. However they forgot to clip a rad hose in place, and 3 months later, the fan chewed through the hose and my car spewed its coolant. To say I was not pleased would be an understatement. Damn those dealers

Worse, the two truck operator messed up the suspension by not using the tow hook. One bent rear control arm, and thoroughly out of whack alignment. It's all been fixed. The car was towed to a different dealer for the repair, as it was closer to where I was (and to home, my regular dealer is near my work).

Fortunately the repair was done correctly and the second dealer worked out the costs with the first. Didn't bother to go after the tow operator. Partly my fault for not insisting on the hook. Plus he's the only game in town and it's a small town...

 

[kjclow]

I insist on a flat bed when I have to get my VWs towed. The beetle's owners manual specified it and the JSW and Golf both recommend it.

 

[skoopman]

Definitely not normal. My kit had no measurable impact on performance. However they forgot to clip a rad hose in place, and 3 months later, the fan chewed through the hose and my car spewed its coolant. To say I was not pleased would be an understatement. Damn those dealers

Worse, the two truck operator messed up the suspension by not using the tow hook. One bent rear control arm, and thoroughly out of whack alignment. It's all been fixed. The car was towed to a different dealer for the repair, as it was closer to where I was (and to home, my regular dealer is near my work).

Fortunately the repair was done correctly and the second dealer worked out the costs with the first. Didn't bother to go after the tow operator. Partly my fault for not insisting on the hook. Plus he's the only game in town and it's a small town...

I'm wondering if it was even an Intercooler problem. When I first dropped off the car for inspection, I asked the dealership if it could be a clutch problem, because the engine was reving, I just had no power. Would the engine even rev if the intercooler was blocked?

 

[PlaneCrazy]

I insist on a flat bed when I have to get my VWs towed. The beetle's owners manual specified it and the JSW and Golf both recommend it.

It was a flatbed. The operator hooked up to the suspension to pull the car up onto the bed.

 

[Loafing]

WOT Works?

Hello All,
.
Good question.
Water injection is beneficial in some applications, under precise measured amounts and critical timing.
But Not on Our CR TDi's!!
Blowing out the cobweb's by doing an extreme turbo run does not produce enough flow to lift small amounts of water and the goo present in the bottom of the hose. The water really has a hard road to travel, straight up approx 6 inches, then another 3 inches past the EGR, then into the Intake.
During late spring testing, in below freezing temperatures, I found the the water accumulating over time in the lower return hose. (passenger side) The water will accumulate up to a "full" level, that has to eventually get sucked up into the intake. When it does, it brings a whole slug with it, possibly hydrolocking your engine during start up, or initiating a stutter, then big clouds of white smoke, while running. Either way, not good.
The goo we see is small amounts of oil from the Turbo, emulsified over time with the water.
Some have experienced an ice up while driving, which I believe is again, the accumulated water in the hose freezing up either from the night before or during ideal driving conditions. The accumulated frozen water would be just "full" enough to allow air to pass, then thaw a little of that ice, add a little more accumulated water, then it has the perfect level to get sucked up. At this time, there would still be an ice plug in the bottom of the hose.
.
I still drain my lower hose daily, collecting very small amounts of water in these warmer temperatures.
The water is still there after a hard turbo run, all the time, every time.
(go back to page 195, post # 2915 of this thread to see the drain set up.)
The intercooler Fix From VW seems to have a good success rate, but many cars are out of warranty and there also seems to be a shortage of kits.
By manually or automatically draining the lower hose, this helps to eliminate the chance of a water injection, but still does not eliminate the accumulation of water from the intercooler condensing.
All the Best,

Another opinion about effectiveness of WOT clearing the throat....

 

[PlaneCrazy]

Another opinion about effectiveness of WOT clearing the throat....

I suspect that hard driving might not clear any pooled water that's there, but it might be preventive by not allowing ice/moisture to settle in the first place by keeping a high airflow.

When mine had the icing issue, I made sure I drove it at 110 km/h in 5th all the time on the autoroute. Admittedly it isn't a controlled experience but I never had problems after I started doing that, until the kit was installed, and I would drive in cold weather and park in a garage just above freezing.

 

[sickmtbnutcase]

We don't drive our Jetta hard or run a gear low and don't hit freeways except for occasional trips so it doesn't get a lot of RPM. No issues the last few winters with partial and/or full grille blockage with pipe insulation. Before these last few winters, we did have issues (no pipe insulation). Now we're not having problems nor has there been any water in the IC hose. I can't say for sure that the pipe insulation has made any difference and my data logging says it doesn't help IATs, but I'm not going to pull it off the car

Just another anecdote

 

[metalfabsteve]

Here's the pipe on my '13 golf wagon 6m it it worth fussing about seeems like alot of ice particals in there car has 11,685 kms when I took these photos.
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[kjclow]

It was a flatbed. The operator hooked up to the suspension to pull the car up onto the bed.

Oh, just an uncaring tow operator. When I had my wagen towed, they wanted to use the tow loops from shipping but I couldn't find the rear one. They hooked on to the trailer hitch instead.

 

[Loafing]

I suspect that hard driving might not clear any pooled water that's there, but it might be preventive by not allowing ice/moisture to settle in the first place by keeping a high airflow.

When mine had the icing issue, I made sure I drove it at 110 km/h in 5th all the time on the autoroute. Admittedly it isn't a controlled experience but I never had problems after I started doing that, until the kit was installed, and I would drive in cold weather and park in a garage just above freezing.

Good point but what about the possibility of condensate freezing to the IC (from incoming moist air from atmosphere & LP-EGR regardless of airspeed). That would melt & deposit on warming up. (Just speculating because that seems to be what happened to me most recently)

 

[bhtooefr]

However, the PD Mk5s have the same basic intercooler design (and plenty of people have put big front mounts into Mk4s), and don't have this problem.

I wouldn't be surprised if cold, humid air didn't help, but the main source of humidity is the LP-EGR.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

Hard start today (kit installed February 2011). Nowhere hear hydrolocked though, cranked normally, stumbled and died, cranked normally again, but had trouble catching, then caught and died. Third time lucky, very lumpy idle for a few seconds, then normal.

Conditions: previous drive in cold (below freezing) weather, forget temperature, approx. 80 km. Then car sat for a week as I used one of our other cars for commuting this week. Started it today to move it so I could plow driveway, temp 4.5C. Frost heater not plugged in.

This has happened a few times with our 2011 since the kit was installed. So far, in 5000 km of winter driving, our 2013 hasn't skipped a beat and starts without a hiccup every time even in similar conditions. I suspect they did do something to 2013s, or I've got a "lucky" one.

 

[AngryTDIowneR]

After another non-start almost exactly a year after the first, the third tow overall, VWoA installed the kit. I drive the same route to and from work. Before install I was averaging 48 mpg on the mostly downhill drive to the office, 42 on the way back. Since install I've been getting 44 to, 39 back. Seems she's lost a little mpg. I'm hoping this isn't the new norm. Anyone else with the "fix" noticing a drop in economy? I should also mention I'm sensing slightly more torque. Wasn't expecting that.

 

[bdisco]

I just experienced my second hard start this winter my fourth overall. First one occurred just before Christmas car started fine went to drive out of the parking lot and car stumbled, sputtered, and shook, but did not stall. Cloud of steam for about a mile then ran fine. Today, left for work temp 10F. Went to leave for lunch and grab a salad at Wendy’s temp 30F, car starts first try, shift to drive and stalls. Car restarts on the third try and again stumble, sputter, and shake. I’m due for the 30K service next month and will let the service tech know and they will probably find nothing. I really like refueling every other week as opposed to every week but I’m not sure I want to keep this car for long after the warrantee runs out. Maybe go back to Subaru…AWD BRZ Sti maybe? I know posting here is probably not going to fix this issue but at least I know you guys feel my pain. I’m starting to think VW doesn’t frequent this site, but at least we’re getting the word out.

 

[P0234]

Just got hit this morning in NoVA. Car started like usual then died after 1 second. Wouldn't start, just kept sputtering out. At one point it wouldn't turn over at all. Gave it a minute, then it started sputtering again. Gave it about 1/4 throttle and it stumbled to life.

 

[crashtested]

Thats how you bend the rods and destroy the motor.........

Get educated! There are some serious cases of fear mongering in this thread and it's quickly becoming less then informative for anyone that doesn't read the first 3500+ posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolock

 

[metalfabsteve]

This has happened a few times with our 2011 since the kit was installed. So far, in 5000 km of winter driving, our 2013 hasn't skipped a beat and starts without a hiccup every time even in similar conditions. I suspect they did do something to 2013s, or I've got a "lucky" one.

Planecrazy you must have a lucky 13' my car is booked next week for the cold weather IC kit, it has given me a couple of rough starts I showed the dealer the same pics I posted on the last page of this thread they confirmed that the 13' model has no changes in this area. I think I'm the first one with a 2013 who has had this problem at the dealer I deal with, they helped me out no b.s.though
Cheers
Steve

 

[tdiatlast]

Get educated! There are some serious cases of fear mongering in this thread and it's quickly becoming less then informative for anyone that doesn't read the first 3500+ posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolock

I understand that very, very few here have the luxury of missing a day of work, or want to risk the inconvenience of waiting for a tow in sub-32 temps. However, so many here have covered up the problem, temporarily, by forcing the engine to start, and risking very serious damage.

I wonder if VWoA would be more aggressively seeking a fix for this if EVERYONE that is having a hard start (multiple cranking, sputtering) would just stop and have it towed to the dealer.

We have enough experience with this, in regions that are sub 35f, that anytime the motor requires more than 3-5 revolutions of the motor (starter induced) should be a cause for concern.

...just my 2-cents, from a moderate climate, having read every post...

 

[sgoldste01]

My car had an intercooler freeze/near hydrolock situation when I was trying to get to a critical meeting (and I mean CRITICAL as in the meeting had potentially life-altering implications).

I had read this forum and knew exactly what was going on, and I knew the risks of possibly damaging the engine. But this meeting absolutely could not be missed, so I was basically placed in the situation of saying, "This car is either going to start or it's going to die trying!"

After a few minutes of cranking, it did eventually turn over (begrudgingly), and a few minutes after that I was on my way. I don't believe that I damaged the engine in the process, but it certainly could have happened. And I knew it. I was willing to take my chances and let VW and me deal with the potential consequences later. Being nice to the car at that moment was not an option.

 

[tdiatlast]

Just got hit this morning in NoVA. Car started like usual then died after 1 second. Wouldn't start, just kept sputtering out. At one point it wouldn't turn over at all. Gave it a minute, then it started sputtering again. Gave it about 1/4 throttle and it stumbled to life.

What's your plan? Are you going to visit a dealer? Which one?

 

[bdisco]

My car had an intercooler freeze/near hydrolock situation when I was trying to get to a critical meeting (and I mean CRITICAL as in the meeting had potentially life-altering implications).

I was just going to Wendy's for lunch, but I skipped breakfast and was really hungry .

 

[TDIFred]

I had this problem, again, yesterday. Temps slightly above freezing (+2.5C) and raining. Always that bad combo. Lost power after a few minutes, though throttle pressure showed a hit to fuel consumption (i.e., numbers climbing). I kept the engine running long enough to get around the corner and off the main road. I thought it was a fuel starvation problem. No codes, no flashing engine light (except the one that looks like a red steering wheel).
Had it towed to the garage (not a dealer) where, of course, the engine started and idled just fine. They opened up the intercooler, and of course there was not a drop of water.
They did find two codes, P2004? and P2400? and recommend I have the intercooler modification as suggested in the TSB. How difficult is to get the dealer to do this, if the car has not been diagnosed by the same dealer, and a number of times also?

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I understand that very, very few here have the luxury of missing a day of work, or want to risk the inconvenience of waiting for a tow in sub-32 temps. However, so many here have covered up the problem, temporarily, by forcing the engine to start, and risking very serious damage.

I wonder if VWoA would be more aggressively seeking a fix for this if EVERYONE that is having a hard start (multiple cranking, sputtering) would just stop and have it towed to the dealer.

We have enough experience with this, in regions that are sub 35f, that anytime the motor requires more than 3-5 revolutions of the motor (starter induced) should be a cause for concern.

...just my 2-cents, from a moderate climate, having read every post...

I absolutely agree with this post.

 

[Rob_MacCara]

They did find two codes, P2004? and P2400? and recommend I have the intercooler modification as suggested in the TSB. How difficult is to get the dealer to do this, if the car has not been diagnosed by the same dealer, and a number of times also?

I reported the problem to my dealer and they fixed it right away without any questions.

 

[P0234]

What's your plan? Are you going to visit a dealer? Which one?

Just going to bring it up at the next service.

 

[metalfabsteve]

They did find two codes, P2004? and P2400? and recommend I have the intercooler modification as suggested in the TSB. How difficult is to get the dealer to do this, if the car has not been diagnosed by the same dealer, and a number of times also?

Fred call the dealer and see what they say GVW gave me no hassle what so ever. They need the car because it is vin specific to order the kit. I also e-mailed pictures to service manager. I'm shure if you call and describe the situation they will look after you, what year is the car? Is there any warranty left? Hope that helps.
Cheers
Steve