Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

[crashtested]

Ok. I was under the impression that this needed to be changed no matter what. Now Ive had the car for several years now and never had this problem.

Then consider yourself one of the lucky ones!! You guys get some horrible winters in Ont so I'm surprised you haven't run up against a hard start.

I'd say it'd should be something to put on your 'TO-DO' list but not completely necessary.

 

[flyboy320]

Hey Hwy Demon, does you car go in a garage at night or does it stay outside (my 2012 hasn't been through any winters yet and it stays in a garage at night, live not far from you in Burlington), so I'm hoping I'm lucky and don't experience the intercooler icing.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

Hey Hwy Demon, does you car go in a garage at night or does it stay outside (my 2012 hasn't been through any winters yet and it stays in a garage at night, live not far from you in Burlington), so I'm hoping I'm lucky and don't experience the intercooler icing.

Driving all day in below-freezing temperatures, then putting it in a garage above freezing, can exacerbate the issue. The ice will melt and form a pool of water that the engine will ingest and hydrolock.

Even with the intercooler kit, sometimes when I go from a drive in freezing weather to my garage (typically at just over freezing in winter, it's not heated but is attached to the house), I can get rough/stuttering starts.

 

[2micron]

Intercooler draining

Hello everyone! A while back, we were discussing a means to drain the lower hose of our intercoolers. Short term update is that it is possible and doesn't clog up with the emulsified oil goo, as long as it is drained frequently. The electric version is automatic, and drains every time the key fob is beeped. Here is a link back in the spring:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3785173&postcount=2915

Here is a much simpler version, manually actuated:

.
Look for the ring pull, just beside the fog light.
Video:
http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums...oler drain Picture Install notes/DSCI0458.mp4.
There are a couple out for testing with good results. Opening it for a few minutes after a drive, when the car is warm, drains a surprising amount of water, depending on driving conditions. During a long 2000 rpm highway drive, seems to produce the most water. Throw in a regen, the water increases dramatically.
A couple questions came up from our members:
1.) how often to drain? - Frequent draining is best, you would be surprised how much water comes out. I drain mine daily.
2.) will it work in freezing temps? - No, car must be warmed up. The accumulated ice thaws during a drive, then drain it after a drive.
3.) will the valve freeze up? - So far, no. It gets heated naturally from being right beside the oil pan.
4.) how about a lock? - The ring pull is very well hidden and won't get caught on bushes or the car wash.
.
This will not fix the intercooler issue, but just adds piece of mind that not water is accumulating in your lower hose.
Nothing has to be modified on the car, except cutting 1-/14" off the $100 intercooler hose to install the barb:
.

.
The hose will still reattach to the original position, if the barb is removed.
All the best,

 

[dataiv]

I have my IC kit installed now as of yesterday. Will have to see what happens now! I like the look of the drain . Nice job!!

 

[flyboy320]

You gonna sell these 2micron?

 

[2micron]

You gonna sell these 2micron?

Depending on some more test results and club interest, sales are possible. The drain kit simply reduces the risk of water accumulation. I also have to sign up as a vendor. Until then, no kits will be officially sold. As always, I will share any information and parts for the hard core do it yourselfer's!!
The next round of tests are going to be in the extreme cold. I want to purposely let the valve freeze open (by plugging the drain end) and then find out what it takes to get it closed. The other test is to find out what happens when the drain is accidently left open and you drive. How quickly will it trigger a limp mode, low boost error??
Any thought appreciated.
Thanks!!

 

[sickmtbnutcase]

Excellent work 2micron!!! I would like to see this for sale eventually

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Great work, 2micron!

 

[740GLE]

The drain idea is nice, but doesn't help out many people who park outside year round, there have been a few people that have had enough ice accumulation while driving to choke the car out.

 

[2micron]

The drain idea is nice, but doesn't help out many people who park outside year round, there have been a few people that have had enough ice accumulation while driving to choke the car out.

Good thought 740,
One phase of testing is helping to answer the possibility of freeze up during driving. (I also park outside)
Here are some thoughts:
If we drain the system frequently of the accumulated water, there shouldn't be enough moisture in the system to freeze up, during an "ideal condition" long drive.
Lets remember, the unfortunate members who choked up during a long drive would have had lots (1/2 cup) of accumulated water in the system, prior to the choke. This accumulated water didn't just happen on that drive, but over the last several weeks of ideal conditions.
During my commute, 1 hour of 60-70 mph steady driving seems to be ideal conditions for water accumulation and possible ice-up. The only problem is, it is ideal to accumulate water, but not cold enough yet to really freeze. More testing to come!!
Can anyone please dig up the post with the conditions where our 2 (or so) members froze while driving??
Thanks again 740, great discussion!!
All the best,

 

[fjhil1]

2micron - thanks for the new updates & pictures!

2micron, I've been following this thread and I'm glad you're back with your drain updates! I'm in northern Illinois and commute in identical conditions to your "ideal conditions" scenario (get to work and car sits outside, get home and car sits in an unheated attached garage). Plus we drive to our cabin in northern Wisconsin and that's a 5 hour drive under your "ideal condition", car sits outside at the cabin. I had a hard start at the cabin last winter but the dealer claimed that everything was fine... If/when you start to offer this product you can count me in! Thanks for your updates.

 

[bangoman]

Finally got through this thread - lots of good info in here.

Dumb question - I'm looking at a 2010 wagon (TDI of course) with 80000km on it. Local car, all services at the local dealer, no history of hard start/no start. It lived in the same climate I will be driving it in (Southern Ontario, so lots of sub zero deg C temps). Am I good to assume that it will be ok or will I be playing frozen IC bingo?

 

[STRANGETDI]

Bangoman will be a bingo man!

 

[kjclow]

Hello everyone! A while back, we were discussing a means to drain the lower hose of our intercoolers. Short term update is that it is possible and doesn't clog up with the emulsified oil goo, as long as it is drained frequently. The electric version is automatic, and drains every time the key fob is beeped. Here is a link back in the spring:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3785173&postcount=2915

Here is a much simpler version, manually actuated:

.
Look for the ring pull, just beside the fog light.
Video:
http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums...oler drain Picture Install notes/DSCI0458.mp4.
There are a couple out for testing with good results. Opening it for a few minutes after a drive, when the car is warm, drains a surprising amount of water, depending on driving conditions. During a long 2000 rpm highway drive, seems to produce the most water. Throw in a regen, the water increases dramatically.
A couple questions came up from our members:
1.) how often to drain? - Frequent draining is best, you would be surprised how much water comes out. I drain mine daily.
2.) will it work in freezing temps? - No, car must be warmed up. The accumulated ice thaws during a drive, then drain it after a drive.
3.) will the valve freeze up? - So far, no. It gets heated naturally from being right beside the oil pan.
4.) how about a lock? - The ring pull is very well hidden and won't get caught on bushes or the car wash.
.
This will not fix the intercooler issue, but just adds piece of mind that not water is accumulating in your lower hose.
Nothing has to be modified on the car, except cutting 1-/14" off the $100 intercooler hose to install the barb:
.

.
The hose will still reattach to the original position, if the barb is removed.
All the best,

Nice fix, but where does the gunk drain to? Wouldn't it drain onto the belly pan making it possible to collect the gunk coming out of the inter cooler? Not sure I need to do this since I live in NC, but am planning on heading north for Christmas.

 

[c17chief]

So every now and then I see mentioned about a surprising amount of water after the car has been driven for awhile....I always thought this was more of a startup/cold engine problem and that by the time you operated the engine at temp for awhile, that the water would essentially be cooked out. Outside of some normal evaporation or something, does this mean moisture pretty much keeps accumulating over time given the right freeze/thaw conditions?


As far as drain/catch can goes...instead of a fancy electricly controlled valve or working a manual one frequently, has 2micron or any of you toyed with maybe a trap type catch can that can be emptied less often? I've never looked to see just how much room there is under the hose, but instead of a drain cock right off the hose, have a tap off the bottom of the intercooler hose that goes to a fabricated shallow/wide 'can' that holds a quart or so with a drain plug or valve mounted to it, allowing for periodic vs more frequent emptying.

 

[pleopard]

Great, I had almost forgotten about this issue until my eye caught this thread again. I'm 10,000 miles out of warranty and odds are I'm out of luck if I encounter this issue...again!

 

[bangoman]

Bangoman will be a bingo man!

LOL. It's so frustrating though. I had 5 happy years with a 2.0 TDI in a 2003 Audi A3. It never missed a beat, hot or cold. I want a wagon this time, otherwise, it would be an Audi again...

 

[birkie]

Good thought 740,

Can anyone please dig up the post with the conditions where our 2 (or so) members froze while driving??

Not sure about that post, but I have a ~1-1.5 hr commute on mostly interstate and rural highways. It happened to me a few times with temps in the low 20s during the early morning commute, with a warmup to the upper 40s by the time start the car again for the drive home.

 

[Thunder Chicken]

Hello everyone,
I have not read the whole thread, but am adding to it to report I have confirmed intercooler icing with my 2012 Golf Wagon TDI.
I had just completed a 1200km trip. Temps on this trip were in the -20 to -8 Celsius range. I was in some light snow and freezing drizzle for part of the trip, so the air was damp. Once at my destination, car sat outside for the night. (-20) Next morning, It stated fine, I drove it into our heated garage to thaw it out and wash it. About 5 hours later I started it to move it outside. It ran very rough then stalled. After a bit more than usual cranking it started and ran rough again, slowly clearing up. I ran around the parking lot, shut it off, started it back up and all seemed fine. I visited a dealer a few days later (without the car) and they said it sounded like water in the intercooler. Once I had a chance to drive the car to a VW dealership, (another 800km of driving) they took a look and confirmed lots of water and ordered the new intercooler kit.
The dealer I took the car to made no qualms about ordering it. In fact, they went above and beyond to accommodate my visit as I drove through the city on a Friday afternoon. (I live 4 hrs away from them, the nearest dealership)
On this road trip, I had terrible mileage, (300km less than normal per tank)once it came out of the shop with the water drained the next 400km leg was notably better mileage.
Here's hoping for a speedy install, good luck to others affected by this......

 

[tdi90hp]

Hello everyone! A while back, we were discussing a means to drain the lower hose of our intercoolers. Short term update is that it is possible and doesn't clog up with the emulsified oil goo, as long as it is drained frequently. The electric version is automatic, and drains every time the key fob is beeped. Here is a link back in the spring:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3785173&postcount=2915

Here is a much simpler version, manually actuated:

.
Look for the ring pull, just beside the fog light.
Video:
http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums...oler drain Picture Install notes/DSCI0458.mp4.
There are a couple out for testing with good results. Opening it for a few minutes after a drive, when the car is warm, drains a surprising amount of water, depending on driving conditions. During a long 2000 rpm highway drive, seems to produce the most water. Throw in a regen, the water increases dramatically.
A couple questions came up from our members:
1.) how often to drain? - Frequent draining is best, you would be surprised how much water comes out. I drain mine daily.
2.) will it work in freezing temps? - No, car must be warmed up. The accumulated ice thaws during a drive, then drain it after a drive.
3.) will the valve freeze up? - So far, no. It gets heated naturally from being right beside the oil pan.
4.) how about a lock? - The ring pull is very well hidden and won't get caught on bushes or the car wash.
.
This will not fix the intercooler issue, but just adds piece of mind that not water is accumulating in your lower hose.
Nothing has to be modified on the car, except cutting 1-/14" off the $100 intercooler hose to install the barb:
.

.
The hose will still reattach to the original position, if the barb is removed.
All the best,

great stuff....slowly but surely you will solve all of the CR problems then nobody will be able to complain about the car!! love this simple mechanical drain off valve for the intercooler hose. Smart. Cant wait to see this in person.

 

[Henrick]

Today I started my car and it idled while I was having a phone conversation. After idling for about 50 seconds, the idle became rough for about 3 seconds and the car stalled. A few moments later I cycled the key and tried to restart. After a bit of cranking (~3 seconds) the car started.

Does this looks like a typical frozen charge air cooler or should I start worrying about my HPFP going out?

 

[Henrick]

Today I started my car and it idled while I was having a phone conversation. After idling for about 50 seconds, the idle became rough for about 3 seconds and the car stalled. A few moments later I cycled the key and tried to restart. After a bit of cranking (~3 seconds) the car started.

Does this looks like a typical frozen charge air cooler or should I start worrying about my HPFP going out?

 

[Airbus320]

Keep me up to date 2micron I am fairly close to you.

 

[Loafing]

HPFP vs IC?

Today I started my car and it idled while I was having a phone conversation. After idling for about 50 seconds, the idle became rough for about 3 seconds and the car stalled. A few moments later I cycled the key and tried to restart. After a bit of cranking (~3 seconds) the car started.

Does this looks like a typical frozen charge air cooler or should I start worrying about my HPFP going out?

Never had the HPFP issue, symptoms sound similar to my IC issue (now resolved). Didn't know Ireland gets cold enough for the problem.

Have a look at the HPFP thread....

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=286380

 

[2micron]

Keep me up to date 2micron I am fairly close to you.

Thanks Airbus, I will keep in touch! Glad to hear our highly respected pilots also drive TDI's!!
Certainly wouldn't want icing issues on your wings???
Henrick is looking into getting his lower hose off to check for any water / sludge build up.
All the best!

 

[flyboy320]

Glad to hear our highly respected pilots also drive TDI's!!

+1 more....

 

[GraniteRooster]

2micron - scanning through and saw your question:

Can anyone please dig up the post with the conditions where our 2 (or so) members froze while driving??

In the event that triggered my original post # 1 in this thread, my car froze up while driving on the highway, and in the days leading up to the freeze, it was very unseasonably warm in the 50's. On the morning of my 100 mile commute in (system likely blew through most moisture). As I recall the morning of that day it was right around freezing, not serious icing conditions. Then, on my commute home with a storm front and temperature falling rapidly from 25 through 14 and below, it went into limp mode on the highway after about 30 miles.

Then, Tuesday Dec 14th driving home, left South NH in 27 F degrees, rain, snow mix and temperature falling rapidly. 25 minutes into the drive, precip has transitioned to mostly snow, and temperature now 14 F degrees and still falling. 72mph in left lane, power cuts, Service NOW message, Glow Plug lights flashing. Finished 70 mile drive home with engine in LIMP mode and 10 degree external temperatures, wondering if my HPFP was expired. I was low on fuel, so left engine idling in LIMP and filled up with my favorite B5 before continuing home and shut it off.

and

Thats a good thought, but not driving style related. Mine is a 6spd, its gets an italian tuneup a couple times each way on my 100 miles across NH. Bedford and Hookset tolls (traffic conditions permitting), long uphill on-ramp from RT89S in Concord to RT93S, likewise hills on RT 89, and I live on top of a hill that I regularly use to clean her out before I shut her down (after which I have a couple miles of slight downhill & neighboorhood cruising to let it cool off after WOT before shutdown.) At WOT I shift just past peak HP @ 4200-4400rpm, more regular driving I shift 3-3.5k even if not WOT just to keep the airflow up.

You simply can't work it any harder that I do without driving like a jerk on the highway or exceeding reasonable speed limits. The day my car choked and went LIMP, I left Hudson at 5pm in a freezing rain & snowstorm, and was in the left-hand lane all the way up Rt 3 through Nashua, and past Manchester in heavy PM rush hour traffic. As you know, that stretch gets bumper to bumper, Speed 70-75, and no opportunities to pass or "surge WOT" for short periods to try to melt ice. That tactic wouldn't work anyway, because 10 sec of WOT and you are past the speed limit, and 10 sec of turbo heat is not going to melt much ice if any accumulated in the intake from cruising at typical throttle openings. Then, you back off the throttle, and heat goes away and you are building ice. Aim a hairdryer at an ice cube for 10 seconds and let me know how much ice is left. My intake had about a dozen ice cubes worth of ice in it.

The days before LIMP, (Sunday the 13th & Monday the 13th) it was 54 degrees out in Nashua, so it is safe to assume my car blew itself out completely on my drive home Monday. That means whatever it choked on the next day accumulated in that 24 hour period, and most likely in the evening during my 30 minute stretch between Nashua and Manchester in heavy traffic.

Since I was in the left lane going as fast as traffic allows (and is reasonable, safe, and reasonably legal), I was maintaining the highest possible boost and temperature headed into the IC, and it still froze up under routine highway driving conditions.

No, this is not a driving style problem, this is a routine operation problem. After all, long runs on the highway are supposed to be what these cars do best.

 

[Henrick]

Never had the HPFP issue, symptoms sound similar to my IC issue (now resolved). Didn't know Ireland gets cold enough for the problem.

Have a look at the HPFP thread....

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=286380

I'm not sure if the water down there needs to be frozen to cause issues. As far as I understand excessive water might also be a problem. Water ingestion is no good, I believe.

 

[schultp]

Maybe we shoud shove one of those super absorbant baby diapers in the intercooler! While this is a joke, I wonder if there could be something that absorbed and retained the moisture?