Hard start after timing belt job, please help

[CKRATDI]

14 B7 passat ckra tdi dsg
I just finished a timing belt kit on the ckra engine and now I have a hard starting issue. The car runs perfect and smooth once it's running. But 9/10 when I try to start it it fires and dies, then randomly on one of the tries it'll fire right up fine. Don't got any codes and as far as I know I did the timing belt job correctly. I don't know if this is something to do with the fuel pump, when I prime the pump via obd11 it helps a little bit. I got the car running and drove it 10 miles and it ran fine, I shut it off and immediately tried to start it and it doesn't want to start. I don't think it's a hpfp prime issue because I had already primed it and driven it 10 miles yet it still is hard to start, after I try to start it 10 times it'll randomly decide to fire up fine. I don't know if something is wrong on the fuel pump timing or what but I did the timing belt job identically to the video on diesel geek so I have no idea what the issue is. If anyone could please help that would be greatly appreciated

 

[turbobrick240]

I'd double check the wiring connection to the aux. pump. Listen while priming to see if it's operating along with the in tank pump.

 

[d2freeman]

CKRA does not have an aux pump, only the pump in the tank.

 

[turbobrick240]

Ah, well that's probably not the problem then. Any chance the fuel lines got switched around or kinked?

 

[ticaf]

The odds would be that you messed up the timing by a tooth or so. Did you turn it over 2 revolutions and the pining was good?

 

[CKRATDI]

Yeah the ckra only has the tank pump and the hpfp, I can hear it prime so that seems to be fine. I'm thinking you might be right about it being a tooth off or just off a little bit. I'm unsure of what pining on the hpfp looks like, what's the mark look like and what's it need to align with? I couldn't really see the hpfp sprocket very well because I didn't remove the filter housing, fuel hoses or the engine mount. I did put the pin in the cam and hpfp gear and rotated them to they're stopping point so that once the belt was tightened the cam gear had the pin centered. I think the cam gear should be ok but I need to know more specifically or if possible with a picture as to what needs to align on the hpfp. Do I gotta take everything back apart and put in the Crank lock at TDC to fix this?

 

[CKRATDI]

Yeah the ckra only has the tank pump and the hpfp, I can hear it prime so that seems to be fine. I'm thinking you might be right about it being a tooth off or just off a little bit. I'm unsure of what pining on the hpfp looks like, what's the mark look like and what's it need to align with? I couldn't really see the hpfp sprocket very well because I didn't remove the filter housing, fuel hoses or the engine mount. I did put the pin in the cam and hpfp gear and rotated them to they're stopping point so that once the belt was tightened the cam gear had the pin centered. I think the cam gear should be ok but I need to know more specifically or if possible with a picture as to what needs to align on the hpfp. Do I gotta take everything back apart and put in the Crank lock at TDC to fix this? And I did rotate the engine twice but I think I overlooked the hpfp

 

[d2freeman]

Behind the HPFP gear is a metal tab that the pin goes through and then into a hole in the block.

 

[CKRATDI]

Thank you for for reply. I think I was putting the pin in the hole that's around 7-8 o clock. So the pin goes in where your showing me, does the pin hold the gear by going between the teeth and then into the block? And to confirm I'm not putting the pin through a hole in the sprocket? And putting this pin through is what lines things up or is there any markings that need to line up as well?

 

[CKRATDI]

Thank you for for reply. I think I was putting the pin in the hole that's around 7-8 o clock. So the pin goes in where your showing me, does the pin hold the gear by going between the teeth and then into the block? And to confirm I'm not putting the pin through a hole in the sprocket? And putting this pin through is what lines things up or is there any markings that need to line up as well?

Also do I gotta put the engine at TDC and release the tensioner or can I just loosen the hpfp sprocket and move it?

 

[d2freeman]

The gear has a tab with a slot in it that lines up with a hole in the block and the pin goes into the slot and into the hole, the hole is in the position as shown not 7-8 o'clock but at the top around 11 o'clock.
If it were me I would just go back and start over, set at TDC, lock the cam and the HPFP and redo the belt, a few hours work is worth the peace of mind alone.

 

[eugene89us]

@CKRATDI I was in communication with another member on this forum, he had the same symptoms of car hard starting. But once started, it was running just fine. It was not properly timed between camshaft and crankshaft. HPFP does not have to have perfect timing, but members on this forum hypothesized that you still want to make sure it is close, since they probably timed HPFP load when the engine load is the lowest per rotation, which would make sense.

I have a post here on forums when I was doing my timing belt change. My Turbo Diesel has an awesome video with engine out of the car, which shows everything quite well. You want your tensioned properly tensioned wither within the notch or slightly above the notch (yet still over the metal tab). Always rotate your crank clockwise and then lock the crankshaft. You camshaft should allow the pin through. The HPFP likely will not, but it will be very close. If you use a mirror, you will see the U shaped metal tab that will hover over the hole for the pin. The pin may not fit, but it will be within a hair. I posted picture of both of these holes in my how-to posting. Refer to it, see if it helps. It took me a few tries to perfectly line up the cam and crankshaft, so that the cam pin would fit again and again after 2 rotations of the crank.

 

[eugene89us]

Here is the link to my posting, you can see pictures in the mirror for the alignment holes for both cam and HPFP: Guide: 2014 Passat TDI CKRA Camshaft and Crankshaft Seal Replacement and Timing Belt Job | TDIClub Forums

 

[CKRATDI]

The gear has a tab with a slot in it that lines up with a hole in the block and the pin goes into the slot and into the hole, the hole is in the position as shown not 7-8 o'clock but at the top around 11 o'clock.
If it were me I would just go back and start over, set at TDC, lock the cam and the HPFP and redo the belt, a few hours work is worth the peace of mind alone.

I really appreciate the reply, I definitely don't want to replace an engine so i will just repeat the whole process while including your tips. Thank you sir

 

[CKRATDI]

@CKRATDI I was in communication with another member on this forum, he had the same symptoms of car hard starting. But once started, it was running just fine. It was not properly timed between camshaft and crankshaft. HPFP does not have to have perfect timing, but members on this forum hypothesized that you still want to make sure it is close, since they probably timed HPFP load when the engine load is the lowest per rotation, which would make sense.

I have a post here on forums when I was doing my timing belt change. My Turbo Diesel has an awesome video with engine out of the car, which shows everything quite well. You want your tensioned properly tensioned wither within the notch or slightly above the notch (yet still over the metal tab). Always rotate your crank clockwise and then lock the crankshaft. You camshaft should allow the pin through. The HPFP likely will not, but it will be very close. If you use a mirror, you will see the U shaped metal tab that will hover over the hole for the pin. The pin may not fit, but it will be within a hair. I posted picture of both of these holes in my how-to posting. Refer to it, see if it helps. It took me a few tries to perfectly line up the cam and crankshaft, so that the cam pin would fit again and again after 2 rotations of the crank.

Thank you for your help. Also my pin in the cam gear fit okay and went all the way in, and tensioner arrow was within the gap, and the cam pin was within the center of the groove and into the head so I'm not sure if that's all okay or not but I I rotate the engine twice clockwise and it still fit in the cam so now I'm not sure if I need to adjust the cam or not

 

[eugene89us]

Are you using Metal Nerd crank lock, like I did in my guide? Or are you using the official VW crank lock? If latter, make sure you're using the correct version, as there are two of them - one with the arrow to the right and the other to the left. But I am sure you're doing everything correct. So if the crankshaft locks in place after you turn it 2 times, then the camshaft pin goes all the way, you have them properly timed. Verify with a mirror that the U-shaped opening in HPFP is at least near the hole in the block, as you see in one of the photos, which will confirm you're within spec.

When I did the timing belt, I did both the factory method, as well as marked the teeth from old belt to new belt, that way there'd be no way to be off by a tooth. Then the factory adjustment method allowed me to tighten the sprockets in the proper timing locations. Just spend a good bit of time ensuring you're perfectly timed, that hopefully will resolve the issue. The fact that it runs well while started shows your timing is very close at least, but hard starting has been a symptom of mis-timed engine. What belt are you using?

 

[eugene89us]

@CKRATDI If you don't mind, lock the crankshaft. Take a picture of your lock, then take an inspection mirror or a small household mirror and take photos of camshaft and HPFP alignment holes. Maybe seeing what you're seeing will help pinpoint what is wrong?

 

[eugene89us]

This is what I am looking to see, these pics were from factory belt, but end result was pretty much the same:

Crank locked with MetalNerd tool

Camshaft hole aligns with camshaft U-shaped groove:

And then HPFP is visibly lined up with hole in engine block and the U shape metal piece, though the pins did not align:

 

[eugene89us]

If this helps, this was the arrangement of the new timing belt, approximately at TDC before I started to align the pins:

 

[CKRATDI]

Are you using Metal Nerd crank lock, like I did in my guide? Or are you using the official VW crank lock? If latter, make sure you're using the correct version, as there are two of them - one with the arrow to the right and the other to the left. But I am sure you're doing everything correct. So if the crankshaft locks in place after you turn it 2 times, then the camshaft pin goes all the way, you have them properly timed. Verify with a mirror that the U-shaped opening in HPFP is at least near the hole in the block, as you see in one of the photos, which will confirm you're within spec.

When I did the timing belt, I did both the factory method, as well as marked the teeth from old belt to new belt, that way there'd be no way to be off by a tooth. Then the factory adjustment method allowed me to tighten the sprockets in the proper timing locations. Just spend a good bit of time ensuring you're perfectly timed, that hopefully will resolve the issue. The fact that it runs well while started shows your timing is very close at least, but hard starting has been a symptom of mis-timed engine. What belt are you using?

 

[CKRATDI]

Are you using Metal Nerd crank lock, like I did in my guide? Or are you using the official VW crank lock? If latter, make sure you're using the correct version, as there are two of them - one with the arrow to the right and the other to the left. But I am sure you're doing everything correct. So if the crankshaft locks in place after you turn it 2 times, then the camshaft pin goes all the way, you have them properly timed. Verify with a mirror that the U-shaped opening in HPFP is at least near the hole in the block, as you see in one of the photos, which will confirm you're within spec.

When I did the timing belt, I did both the factory method, as well as marked the teeth from old belt to new belt, that way there'd be no way to be off by a tooth. Then the factory adjustment method allowed me to tighten the sprockets in the proper timing locations. Just spend a good bit of time ensuring you're perfectly timed, that hopefully will resolve the issue. The fact that it runs well while started shows your timing is very close at least, but hard starting has been a symptom of mis-timed engine. What belt are you using?

Yes I have the metal nerd, and a contitech belt, it's the diesel geek kit. Thank you for your replies and I really appreciate the pics. Does the camshaft gear arrow need to be at 12 o'clock or just the pin needs to go in when the Crank is at TDC?

 

[turbobrick240]

Might not hurt to run it for more than 10 minutes before tearing back into things. Could possibly be a stubborn air pocket somewhere. I'd check all of the fuel fittings for tightness too.

 

[eugene89us]

@CKRATDI No, the arrow does not point at 12 o'clock at TDC on the camshaft. It would point to around 11 o'clock. At least mine did. Yeah, the pin definitely need to be in the opening. When you are timing it, you are actually timing the hub underneath the camshaft sprocket. Hence the reason you can move the sprocket while the hub can remain locked at TDC.

Pictures would help before you break into disassembly. I am not denying air pocked possibility, but I still think something here does not compute in regards to how you're timing it. It would help to see the crank locked with the purple tool, and I to see the orifices for cam and HPFP. Can you text it to me?

 

[turbobrick240]

Yeah, I think a timing issue of some sort is most likely too, but it's much easier to run it for a while and check fittings first. Maybe change the fuel filter if that's anywhere near due. Has it been sitting in very cold temps?

 

[CKRATDI]

@CKRATDI No, the arrow does not point at 12 o'clock at TDC on the camshaft. It would point to around 11 o'clock. At least mine did. Yeah, the pin definitely need to be in the opening. When you are timing it, you are actually timing the hub underneath the camshaft sprocket. Hence the reason you can move the sprocket while the hub can remain locked at TDC.

Pictures would help before you break into disassembly. I am not denying air pocked possibility, but I still think something here does not compute in regards to how you're timing it. It would help to see the crank locked with the purple tool, and I to see the orifices for cam and HPFP. Can you text it to me?

I might be able to on Sunday I work from dark until dark. As for the air pocket I thought that at first but I drove the car 10 miles since it was running good and went to re start and it was very hard to start

 

[CKRATDI]

Yeah, I think a timing issue of some sort is most likely too, but it's much easier to run it for a while and check fittings first. Maybe change the fuel filter if that's anywhere near due. Has it been sitting in very cold temps?

I haven't taken any of the fittings or fuel lines apart since 8k miles ago just before winter when I did the fuel filter. Also I drove the car 10 miles and it ran fine so I don't think there should be any air or purge issues since it ran for that long, I also primed it before starting

 

[CKRATDI]

The gear has a tab with a slot in it that lines up with a hole in the block and the pin goes into the slot and into the hole, the hole is in the position as shown not 7-8 o'clock but at the top around 11 o'clock.
If it were me I would just go back and start over, set at TDC, lock the cam and the HPFP and redo the belt, a few hours work is worth the peace of mind alone.

Thank you sir!

 

[turbobrick240]

I'd still try putting some more run time on it. It probably won't resolve your problem, but it is super easy to try that first before digging back into the timing system. Unless, you think you may have bodged the job badly and didn't set the tensioner properly.

 

[CKRATDI]

I'd still try putting some more run time on it. It probably won't resolve your problem, but it is super easy to try that first before digging back into the timing system. Unless, you think you may have bodged the job badly and didn't set the tensioner properly.

I think I got the timing off,since I didn't take lines apart and primed it and drove it there shouldn't be an issue but I think it If had the timing right then it should start fine. I know I got the tensioner within the gap and it's more to the right than the left which is what I was told to do. I'm thinking the cam gear is off a tiny bit or the hpfp is off by alot but I totally get what your saying and like I really don't want to tear it back apart but I'm worried if I run it more that I'll damage something or cause extra wear

 

[AverageAndy]

FWIW, when I did this timing belt change, I had to readjust 2 times before I could take it from 'lined up and pinned", rotate 2 full rotations, then end up at "lined up and pinned" again. I did remove some fuel lines, and even with priming, still took a few cranks to start (same as after replacing an injector). However, since then, I has always started right up, no issues or hesitation. That was 15,000 miles ago.

Also, seat of the pants feeling before (with a 130K mile belt) and after (with a new tight belt) was a slightly peppier engine, which my son noticed as well. So I could see how even 1 tooth off in timing could cause hard start issues.