H rated tire are the really necessary ?

coolsio1234

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2001
Location
Vancouver Bc
TDI
02 Jetta Tdi, 05 Passat Tdi, GL320 CDI
ive ran dunlop sp60's on my jetta for 200k. the first set lasted 160km. now im on the second. its rated 98S. made for 180km/h, I will not even come close to this or have I during the the time I owned the jetta. These tires perform amazingly on wet and dry and are very impressive in snow. great all around tire that wears slowly. I think wear rating is 600. Shops just dont want to put tires on that are rated at a lower speed than came with the factory.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
I'm a whole lot more-worried about traction (WET and dry) and TEMPERATURE resistance along with load range than I am with speed rating.

Then again I've had TWO belt breaks on my Jetta -- both on the front. One right near end-of-life, the other at 30k miles, two completely different brands of tires. And no, there is nothing wrong with the alignment either. I'm convinced that over the last decade or so quality control has just simply gone to hell everywhere, including tires.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
There is more to the rating than the speed part..... use the rating that VW calls for. The price difference is minimal, if you can afford the REST of the cost of driving a TDI.

Bill
What 40X40 said.

I will ONLY use the rating that VW calls for (H rated). There's too much at stake to gamble with using anything less. The general rule I follow is I maintain my car like my life depends on it because it does. :eek:
 

RT1

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Location
Central New Jersey
TDI
2005 Golf 1.9 TDI w/tiptronic 09A
I drive T rated tires and have no issues with handling. I gain substantially in wear reduction because the H rating is softer rubber to grip and corner better at higher speeds. Give the fact that I live in the northeast and driving over 75 mph can get you some unwanted attention from the highway patrol, I don't see any benefit in the H rated tire for normal commuting. If I were taking my ride to the track, that would be a different story. If you look at the VW product line a number of their models come with the exact same tire specification so my Golf gets the same tire as a Passat Wagon and a Jetta Wagon. Doesn't make much sense given that the wagon is a heavier car with a greater load capacity. This is one where I think the bean counters at VW cut the best deal for a huge quantity of tires using engineers specifications as a general guideline to cover the broadest range of driving scenarios and driving styles. Then they throw the tires on as many models as they can get away with to reduce inventory costs.
 

hskrdu

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Location
Maryland and New England
TDI
2003 Golf GLS 4D 5M, 2015 GSW SE 6M
RT1, what tires do you have now? You have no issues handling compared to what? Did T rated tires come on your Golf from VW? When you say you "gain in wear reduction," do you mean you think your tires last longer because they are T rated?

The fact that VW specs 91H for the 2005 Golf, Jetta, and JW makes perfect sense, given that the load rating and ability for H rated tires (which is only partially connected to top speed, and thoroughly connected to the construction of the tire to withstand higher temps and stress) is such that it meets or exceeds the requirements of all those vehicles, regardless of the potential for heavier loads placed in a wagon. If the bean counters had their way, a slighlty cheaper tire with lower ratings would have been chosen.
 

RT1

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Location
Central New Jersey
TDI
2005 Golf 1.9 TDI w/tiptronic 09A
...Compared to the original Goodyears with the H rating which were worn out at less than 70,000 miles. The T rate Yokohamas I replaced them with last better than 100,000 miles and handle a lot better than the Goodyears that were downright dangerous in rain. I suspect the bean counters also look at the potential for liability and consider the driver on a mountain road in the desert southwest, late for a noon time appointment caught in a cloudburst as the worst case scenario and select the tire that won't place VW in the docket as a defendant in a lawsuit. They'll choose the tire that best suits the worst case driver without spending a penny more. If they can minimize inventory by placing that tire on multiple models, so much the better.

For all y'all who are stunt drivers and highway weavers, please, get the H rated tire. Plain commuters like myself, content to stay in the right lane at a steady speed, are welcome to try the tire that suits their own driving style.
 

hskrdu

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Location
Maryland and New England
TDI
2003 Golf GLS 4D 5M, 2015 GSW SE 6M
Well, those original GY's (were they Eagle LS? -which were original tires placed on the majority of '05 G/J/JW's along with a minority that rec'd Conty's and Michelins) were likley the weak point- their longevity or poor wet weather handling had little to do with the H rating. My OE Goodyears had two go out of round in the first year, and one that couldn't hold air. After 20k all but the spare had been replaced under warranty. Was it the H rating? No, it was the mass-produced entry level GY's that went on thousands of G's and J's.

My obtuse points from the above post, however, are the following:
1) Your handling is a function of the quality of your tires and the condition/quality of your suspension, and obviously varies with load, speed, and road conditions. The speed rating may play a small factor in handling -connected to the quality of the tire's construction. The type and quality of tire is more likely a notable factor- and this is when rubber compound, width, type of wheel, low profile, etc. come into play.

2) The H rating is not an indicator of "softer rubber" or grip and handling at higher speeds. I think you are confusing performance tires with the generic speed rating given to all tires. Do performnace tires often have higher speed ratings? Sure, but you can find lots of all season H rated tires made with the same compunds as other tires in the same series. These tires are simply constructed to withstand higher speeds and the stresses/temps associated with higher speeds.

3) The "I don't drive 130mph, so I don't need X rated tires" sounds reasonable, but misunderstands (IMO) the speed rating. First let me say, I agree that the speed rating is less important than other tire atributes, but I don't think you'ld say "I never load my car with much gear, so I don't need a 91 load index tire." But why not? The load index is yet another lab experiment, where they assign a number to a single tire under ideal conditions. The reason most of us stick to a proper load index rated tire is because it is more obvious that the load index is connected to the quality of a tire's construction. A speed rating, less obviously, is also connected to the quality of a tire's construction. This is the idea to keep in mind- not that you'll never exceed 130 mph. If drivers don't believe this, why not keep pushing lower? You're also not going to drive 118mph, so you don't need T rated tires, or up to 100mph, so you can skip Q rated tires, etc. The speed rating of a tire is not a factor of soft rubber, but tied to it's ability to withstand high temperatures, high stress, and high speed- all evidence of a tougher, more durable construction.

4) H rated tires do not wear out more quickly because of their speed rating. This seems to be your main point, or at least your primary reason for choosing a T rated tire. As an example, my current fave, the Nokian Entyre, is a 95H rated tire, with a UTQG of 700/A/A. Can you find T rated tires with a longer treadwear rating? Sure, but it's more a function of their build compounds than anything else. Does a T rated tire ensure long treadwear? Not by a long shot.

5) H rated tires don't necessarily cost more than T rated tires. If you buy performance tires (more likely to be H rated or better) you'll pay for cost of producing a performance tire- But you can also buy H rated tires from almost every maker for less than some T rated tires in their lineup. When I bought them, my H rated Michelins were cheaper than than the next step up T rated tires, and the Nokians even cheaper than both.

I don't believe there is much to worry about when using the correct size tire with proper load rating, but off by one speed rating factor. If you've found your favorite tire, more power to you- but I'd argue saving a few bucks on tires isn't the best place to shave costs; And remember that the treadwear rating is assigned by the manufacturer after a rather brief field test- only your real world experience will prove wether any tire lasts as long as claimed.
 
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bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
But, removing safety margin from the tire selection means that that safety margin isn't there when you do need to go beyond the limits.

Sure, you can get the cheapest, longest wearing tires money can buy, but you're giving up emergency handling capability to do so.

As far as winter tires go... sure, most aren't H rated (although, while most all-seasons suck, there is the Nokian WR G2, which is in 195/65R15 95H, 205/55R16 from 91H to 94V, and 225/45R17 91V and 94H).

But, the tradeoff is considered acceptable there, due to the greatly increased grip in the conditions that warrant winter tires. And, in Europe, either a sticker in the windshield with the new maximum speed or an alert when exceeding the tire's safe speed is required.
 

belome

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Location
Mid MI
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed
This is disheartening. I have loved Michelin tires every since I bought a car with brand new X-Ones on it many years ago. When they quit making those I switched to the 'club only' X-Radials.

When I read about the Defenders I was sold. I wanted them so bad but they didn't make my size yet and I needed tires this spring so I sprung for a set of x-radials again.

I plan to get at least 100k out of my X-radials, but my plan had always been to switch to Defenders when these wore out. Luckily thats about a year or so away now, maybe they will have high speed rated ones out then.
 

Clayslayer

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2009
Location
Rapid City
TDI
2002 Jetta and a 1977 Ford F-150 with a 4BT Cummins
Well,

I'll be the guinea pig. I bought a set of Defenders for my little Jetta. Yeah ratings here, recommendations there...blah blah, I'm an idiot. Save it flamers. So far about 500 miles and my car has yet to burst into flames. I'm not overly concerned about not being able to 130 mph as the car can't do 118. The load rating is correct for the car and it's designed to be used all over the country. They're round. black. right size. rubber....hmm.. what else...hold air...yup.

Supposed to use VW 501.01.330.1330.01 oil too. Haaahahahaaaa!!
Oh, this'll really rub some of you raw....(it's got a K&N air filter and the engine hasn't even locked up yet!!)

4 door grocery getter. Top speed of 100ish miles an hour on a good day. 90 horsepower 10 years and 320,000 miles ago.

Grew up on a farm. Should have seen some of the tires we used on trailers, tractors, equipment...whatever. To be honest the Michelins are arguably the nicest tires I've EVER bought.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Hm, what is wrong with your ALH that it tops out at 100 MPH?
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
I have the same Hydroedge Michelin's on my Jetta and they are at about 80K with no issues. They are T rated and have served me well, especially at 85 MPH on hot Texas highways. I plan to get the same Defenders as the OP when the Hydroedge's wear out in another year or so.
 

hskrdu

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Location
Maryland and New England
TDI
2003 Golf GLS 4D 5M, 2015 GSW SE 6M
Well, I'll be the guinea pig. I bought a set of Defenders for my little Jetta. Yeah ratings here, recommendations there...blah blah, I'm an idiot. Save it flamers. So far about 500 miles and my car has yet to burst into flames. I'm not overly concerned about not being able to 130 mph as the car can't do 118. The load rating is correct for the car and it's designed to be used all over the country. They're round. black. right size. rubber....hmm.. what else...hold air...yup.
Instead of telling us the car didn't burst into flames (which I can't seem to find listed above as a stated concern of anyone), why not provide an actual review at periodic miles? Even if I'm a Nokian fan, I and others would gain much more from an informational and insightful review than from boasting about ignoring tire or oil reccommendations. Many people would be happy to hear what your hard MPG numbers are, and other subjective notes you may have.

Oh, this'll really rub some of you raw....(it's got a K&N air filter and the engine hasn't even locked up yet!!)
Doesn't rub me raw- I just feel badly for your car (if that's possible). More so, I find it a little amusing/confusing that you spent money to downgrade your air filter and seem to be happy about it.

Looking forward to Defender reviews!
 

40X40

Experienced
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium
Instead of telling us the car didn't burst into flames (which I can't seem to find listed above as a stated concern of anyone), why not provide an actual review at periodic miles? Even if I'm a Nokian fan, I and others would gain much more from an informational and insightful review than from boasting about ignoring tire or oil reccommendations. Many people would be happy to hear what your hard MPG numbers are, and other subjective notes you may have.



Doesn't rub me raw- I just feel badly for your car (if that's possible). More so, I find it a little amusing/confusing that you spent money to downgrade your air filter and seem to be happy about it.

Looking forward to Defender reviews!

Ditto.


Bill
 

wpeets

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
Chateaugay NY 12920
TDI
2014 TDI Wagen Hers
I had michilin defender installed on my car the road noise quited down the ride is excellent . I am also a 70 mile an hour driver. Traction seems good now if they loose traction in 40 to 50 thousand and don't last the 90 as stated its time for a new set. I am 15 to 18 thousand a year. I was told they were the incorrect tire but had them installed anyway.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
I replaced my tires about a month ago. I only use Michelins and that is when I discovered Defenders on Costco's web site as an option when I entered the specs for my '04. I then went to Michelin's web site and clicked on the "Defender" link and then used the "Can this tire be used on your car?" checker, entering the asked for information on my '04. The Defender in question is the 195/65 R15 91T. The reply was the Defender can not be used on the A4 Jetta (I have the 195/65 R15 91H), so I went with the same as before, the Primacys (this is my second tire replacement). I thought it odd Costco would install a tire not sanctioned by the manufactuer for a particular application, and Costco says they won't. So I thought Costco made a mistake by saying the Defender was an acceptable tire for the A4 Jetta.

Today I take another look at Michelin's web site and run the list of tires for my car and I get three choices (Primacy MXV4, Pilot Alto A/S, and Energy Saver). But this time an "Acceptable Alternative" is listed and it is the Defender. Interesting.

I will say the indicated tread wear number (and warranty) is longer for the Defender vs. Primacy: 90,000 miles vs. 60,000 miles warranty, respectively and treadwear is 820 vs. 620, respectively. Both have an "A" traction rating but the Defender has a "B" temperature rating, whereas the Primacy has an "A" temperature rating. What is odd is the tread depth of the Defender is 10% LESS (10/32 vs. 11/32 for the Primacy).

IIRC the Defender retailed for about $6 less than the Primacy.

FWIW I got about 75,000 miles out of the Primacys, could have pushed it to 80,000.

--Nate
 
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fatman

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2001
Location
Lower Mainland, B.C. Canada
TDI
2001 Golf TDI (maual), 2010 Golf TDI Wagon (manual)
I am just the average guy with very little knowledge of cars and how they run. I have had my 2001 Golf TDI since buying it brand new. I agree with RT1's comments. Been using H rated tires for the last 11 years(Nokian's, Falkens, Goodyear) simply got tired of replacing them every two years. I am no tire expert but my experience is that H rated is a performance tire, softer rubber so wears out faster and more expensive. I have T rated Yokohama,s on it right now, I notice absolutely no difference. Come on....I drive a 90 horsepower diesel car, I'm not tearing up the road when I am driving. I live in Canada but went down to the States to a Tire Factory, they had no problem putting a T rated tire on my car. I even asked them if that is a problem, the just stared at me and said "no". They could have easy said yes and convinced me to get a more expensive H rated tire, because I bought my Nokian WRG2's there before. The jury is still out on the Yokohama's, only have had them for a year but have been putting a lot of miles on it lately and tread still looks good.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
it's usually good to get round tires, the ones with that steel mesh stuff in the rubber hold up nicely.
Other than that, read up on the Letter specification and make your best choice
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
it's usually good to get round tires, the ones with that steel mesh stuff in the rubber hold up nicely.
Other than that, read up on the Letter specification and make your best choice
Yeah, I bought some square tires a while back and they didn't ride very well....
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
I replaced my tires about a month ago. I only use Michelins and that is when I discovered Defenders on Costco's web site as an option when I entered the specs for my '04. I then went to Michelin's web site and clicked on the "Defender" link and then used the "Can this tire be used on your car?" checker, entering the asked for information on my '04. The Defender in question is the 195/65 R15 91T. The reply was the Defender can not be used on the A4 Jetta (I have the 195/65 R15 91H), so I went with the same as before, the Primacys (this is my second tire replacement). I thought it odd Costco would install a tire not sanctioned by the manufactuer for a particular application, and Costco says they won't. So I thought Costco made a mistake by saying the Defender was an acceptable tire for the A4 Jetta.

Today I take another look at Michelin's web site and run the list of tires for my car and I get three choices (Primacy MXV4, Pilot Alto A/S, and Energy Saver). But this time an "Acceptable Alternative" is listed and it is the Defender. Interesting.

I will say the indicated tread wear number (and warranty) is longer for the Defender vs. Primacy: 90,000 miles vs. 60,000 miles warranty, respectively and treadwear is 820 vs. 620, respectively. Both have an "A" traction rating but the Defender has a "B" temperature rating, whereas the Primacy has an "A" temperature rating. What is odd is the tread depth of the Defender is 10% LESS (10/32 vs. 11/32 for the Primacy).

IIRC the Defender retailed for about $6 less than the Primacy.

FWIW I got about 75,000 miles out of the Primacys, could have pushed it to 80,000.

--Nate
I would guess that the Defenders are ultra hard compound, poor traction. And, that temperature rating can cause problems within speeds that a stock ALH is capable of. (Heat dissipation or generation is too high. This means that it's likely fairly high rolling resistance.)
 

d-man

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Location
alberta
TDI
05 jetta PD
If you like to drive stick with H's, if you love to drive get ZR's. If you like the spongy feel get the T's. For me the perfect balance is the Michelin Primacy MXV4.
 

Clayslayer

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2009
Location
Rapid City
TDI
2002 Jetta and a 1977 Ford F-150 with a 4BT Cummins
Be glad to give a bit of an update on my Defender's.

Before I do I'll give a bit of context about the type of driver I am and what my priorities are in a car/tire, etc. First off: This car is my primary mode of transportation. I drive on public highways at legal speeds the vast majority of the time. I do not treat the car like it's a sports car, nor do I expect it to perform as such. I expect it to get me from point A to point B as efficiently and reliably as possible and to date I've yet to find a more capable and economical vehicle. I don't "hypermile" and I'm not afraid to put my foot on the floor. I REALLY like this car as the odometer (317,XXX and counting) shows.

The tires. Ok. I'm no professional automotive engineer but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. I replaced a set of Kelly Navigator "Touring Gold" tires (JUNK!!!) with a set of Sams Club's Michelin Defender XTs. I did go in looking for Primacy MXV4's but they were out of stock and it was the last day of the $70 off/set of 4 promotion. The tire guy highly recommended the Defender brand anyway. I thought what the heck. They (Defenders) were a little cheaper too ($488 vs $521 out the door) and had a 25,000 mile better warranty.

Impressions of the performance to date after having put about 6,000 miles on them.

Ride: Good as can reasonably be expected. They're not night and day different than the price point cheap-o tires I replaced (and no tire will be) but they ARE noticably better. Biggest difference is going over RR tracks. The sidewall has a bit of give, even if inflated to 38psi.

Noise: They're quiet. Really quiet. The MKIV Jetta is a very solid, well built car. The minimal wind noise is far louder than any noise the tires make at any speed over around 60 mph.

Manners: Don't know if this is a proper tire category but.... I wanted to highlight that if you live where there are concrete roads with rain grooves these tires don't grab the grooves and shimmy the car all over the road. They do not need to have air added every week or two (at least mine don't). They're near non existent, meaning that you put em on and just tend to forget about them which I guess is a rather important thing for a set of tires. If you have to 'worry' about your tires...you've probably got crappy tires.

Traction: No noticeable issues. They corner fine. Brake fine. Accelerate fine. I have yet to break traction in any way. They more than meet "MY" requirements for wet and dry traction. I've yet to drive in snow with them. Give me a couple months and I'll let you know. Seeing as these tires were a replacement for the "weatherwise" (or whatever it was called) tire as well they should do fine. We'll see.

MPG: OK. Here's the one that most of you care about. If you're concerned about losing vast amounts of fuel economy with this tire I can say you're over worrying. I've seen a nice bump in my overall mpg. Yes these things improved my mpg by around 4 over the previous tire. Are there better "mpg" tires out there? Probably. But this one is pretty darned good. I keep a very detailed log in the car and track every gallon of fuel added. My in town mileage has improved from 36-38 to 40-42. Highway (interstate 80mph) has gone from 40-42 to 45-47. Have yet to get less than 40mpg for a tank after the installation of these tires.

Overall: To say I'm pleased to date is an understatement. This is likely the first time I've ever been "happy" about buying a set of tires. Are there better tires out there? Probably. There's a LOT of good tires on the market. Depends on what you like. SOoooo..... If you drive like I do, to work and back, long trips, etc you can't really go wrong with the Defender.
 

Rod

Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2001
Location
Solon, Ohio
TDI
2001 Jetta, Blue Lagoon
I am in the same boat. I got my HydroEdge (215/60R15) tires in Sept 2003, have 105k mostly freeway miles on them and love them. They have handled WAY better in every weather condition Northeast Ohio has thrown at it and they still are not quite to the tread bars. I'm looking to replace them due to concerns of age only. I'd like the mileage of the 195/15's but the wider tire handles way better then the stock tire.
 

Clayslayer

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2009
Location
Rapid City
TDI
2002 Jetta and a 1977 Ford F-150 with a 4BT Cummins
Bit of an update: Michelin Defender in Snow. Mother Nature was kind enough to give me an opportunity to test my new tires in snow and ice last week. Oh joy.

To my surprise they handled a lot better than I thought they would. Have had a lot of people telling me that they wouldn't work for spit because the rubber compound would be too hard for winter driving blah blah blah....

Well....long story short I think I'll leave the studded Firestone Winterforce IV tires in the garage this year. The Defenders won't be near as good as the 'Stones....I doubt many tires would be. I feel like I could drive through about anything with those on.... BUT the Defenders are good enough that a trip to have all my tires peeled off the rims and the winter ones mounted and balanced isn't worth it. Ought to save me about $150/year. I really need a set of cheap - o steel rims.....
 
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