Guru question: water pump replacement & motor mount bridge

bloc

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI
So, it's looking like my relatively new water pump has been leaking slightly pretty much since install. Trouble is, I'm due to leave tomorrow for a ~4000 mile roadtrip in the car. If it just keeps leaking at the same rate, it should be fine.. but if the bearings give up I'll need to replace it on the road somewhere.

I can bring timing belt tools and the DG water pump removal screws, and am very good with a wrench.. but I can't remember how much room there is with the bridge in place and the engine at normal height.

My question is whether you guys with better memory think I can get the pump R&R done without having to jack up the engine and remove the motor mount bridge? Not having to source stretch bolts on the road would help a LOT.

Thanks for any advice,
-Justin
 

A5INKY

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Location
Louisville, KY
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2006 Jetta TDI, 2002 Eurovan Westphalia VR6
If I had any doubts about the bearings in my water pump I would park the car now. If those go you are risking the TB and an unfortunate meeting between your pistons and valves. That said, I don't think there is room to change the WP without getting the mount out of the way. Even if by some miracle there was, it would make the job a nightmare that would take way longer than doing it right the first time.

That TB system and all of it's parts being perfect are a pre-requisite for a running TDI engine.
 

bloc

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Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
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2013 Touareg TDI
I've been around here long enough and done enough work on people's cars to know better than to drive the car if I wasn't confident in the timing system. I don't have doubts about the bearings yet, the pump is only 13k miles old, and the leak extremely small. I'll check on the belt tensioner periodically to see if it is loosening up, along with keeping an eye on the volume of coolant leaking.

Been digging through google images and youtube.. it appears the pump MAY come out without the bracket needing removal.. but the lower idler pulley is in the way of the lower water pump bolt and the housing.. so it has to come out at least. Since I have to find that bolt, I'll go ahead and get the rest. AND whenever I get around to changing it, find out if it can be replaced with the engine still being supported by the motor mount, and post back here.

Still curious if anyone else has tried this.

For the record.. "doing it right" with regard to a simple water pump R&R may mean not removing the bracket and going through the added complexity of stretch bolts & supporting the engine.. for all you and I know VW may have designed it this way. That is exactly what I'm trying to find out.. from someone that has tried it.

This video shows quite a bit of room in the relevant area at 11:02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zQyDlzFZpA

Thanks.
 

A5INKY

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Location
Louisville, KY
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI, 2002 Eurovan Westphalia VR6
You asked the question and even first mentioned the possibility of the (water pump) "bearings give up". You are also the one thinking of embarking on an ~4000 mile road trip with this questionable timing belt component.

I didn't even mention the fact that coolant has some lubricity and it is leaking in the immediate vicinity of the TB. Even another reason I think you are flirting with disaster.

Honestly, I hope it all works out for you and you don't trash your cylinder head putting this repair off. I just wouldn't be willing to bet on it. And I would hate for anyone less experienced to find this thread and think that anything less than a complete and properly functioning TB system is safe. It is not.

Your thread title seeks guru advise, I won't claim to be one as that status is bestowed by others and not claimed. However, I don't think you will find a TDI "Guru" that will support your plan if it includes letting this WP issue slide for awhile. Good luck!
 
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bbob203

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Oct 31, 2012
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b5.5v
That is a pain. I hope you have a good trip but I would really consider delaying your trip a day to fix that though. I'd rather reuse motot mount stretch bolts than drive on a sketchy waterpump.
 

bloc

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI
Response to an email sent to someone most people on here would consider a guru: "Almost all of the aftermarket pumps out there leak a little. Even dealer pumps to some extent. It's frustrating for me too. My Wife's 30k dealer shortblock pump is leaking now.
It's really not even a leak so much as a piled up glob of dried up coolant."

He is confident the bearings are ok, and that is why I'm confident driving this car. The question about changing the pump on the road is in the same vein as why I always carry a netbook and vcds cable, and for any trip over a couple hundred miles, a pretty extensive bag of tools (some specialty VW, like an injection pump lock bolt tool.) IN CASE.

But.. I don't want to sound unappreciative. Just looking for feedback from someone that has direct knowledge of the procedure at hand. My contact hasn't ever tried it, and doesn't think it will work.. but isn't sure. At this point the stretch bolt issue has been settled.. now I'm just curious.
 

Windex

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Apr 1, 2006
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Cambridge
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05 B5V 01E FRF
After looking back and forth at pictures with the mount on, and with the mount and covers off, all I can say is that it will be tight.

The pump has to come rearward about 1&1/2" to be able to come clear of the hole, and I can't say if you'll have enough clearance to the back of the mount bracket.

If it were my car and impending long trip, I would remove the serp belt -> harmonic balancer, lower timing belt cover and inspect where the coolant leak was coming from.

If it's coming from a weep hole and dribbling down the block (IE not coming in contact with the timing belt rubber) then I would be a lot more confident about setting off down the road.

If it was coming from between the pump and the block (IE bad seal, or improper installation), or worse - from the shaft seal, I would not drive the car on such a long trip.
 

bloc

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Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
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2013 Touareg TDI
What do you mean when you say the pump needs to go rearward to come clear of the hole? I thought these pumps just pulled straight out? I'll remove the serp belt tensioner, which is the only thing I can see that would require pushing the pump back.. that actually has to come off to get the upper metal cover off anyway.

Good call on your description of how to inspect. I was working on that very process when I came in and saw your post. The coolant is leaking from the port by the freeze plug.. which on these pumps basically serves as the lower weep hole. A tiny bit of coolant is getting on the belt, then being immediately flung off the large lower idler.

The really good news is, outside of my confusion when you say the pump needs to move backward, it appears it can come out without having to remove the bracket. It looks like it was designed that way (something I suspected VW had up their sleeve.) There is even a notch on the front leg of the bracket that makes room to get a socket or allen into the top water pump bolt. The Dieselgeek water pump puller bolts will be a very tight fit in there though..

At this point since I feel good about the bearings, and don't have access to the idler stretch bolt or a pump I consider acceptable, the plan is to put it back together and head out on the trip. The original pump supplier is going to warranty it, and get me a Resin pump for better flow.. I'll just have him send it to some point along the road. Since the bracket apparently doesn't have to come off, I'll consider changing it when I get the pump and bolt in my hands.. should be easy enough in a parking lot. I'll also avoid using the grill block setup I put together.. by my logic if the coolant in the radiator is cold, the whole system will have lower pressure, which should be easier on the water pump seal.

Side note: I finally got some remote spring clamp pliers with the cable, to remove the upper IC hard pipe from the IC. Nothing short of life changing.. how have I gone so long just using pliers on spring clamps?
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Coolant hitting the belt? Such a long trip is not a risk I would be willing to take. It's Sunday night, and you are in a major city. Why not wait until morning, get and install a pump before you set off on your journey?

In my post - rearward = outward, sorry about the confusion my man. When the belt was replaced the first time, did you use the appropriate timing belt lock tools, and did you set the timing with VCDS?

If so, and you are confident about each of the other parts of the timing belt system, then make sure that you do not allow the timing belt to skip teeth on the crank, cam, or pump pulleys. You have access to a timing belt tensioner (two prong) wrench?
 

bloc

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Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI
I actually already have an "import direct" pump from a parts house here (resin impeller, made in spain.. probably a decent pump?) as a contingency.. but can't count on finding the stretch bolt, as both dealerships in town are pathetic at stocking stuff for these cars. Plus, if I'm going to go through the effort of changing the pump, I want to have something in there NOT from a local parts place. The original pump supplier is willing to warranty the bad pump with one of my choosing, plus a bolt and coolant, but it'll take a few days. I'll return the spanish pump if I don't end up using it. The other problem is some weather is moving in on Tuesday.. I need to be out of town before then.

It only took me 40 minutes to get the car apart to the point of looking at the water pump earlier today.. I'll just change it on the road somewhere once the parts are shipped to me.

Timing belt job was done by the book, with correct tools. Timing was set to the bottom third of the graph (which seems to run better with my tune/turbo/nozzles), and hasn't moved at all.

I'll be bringing all of my timing belt tools.. It just dawned on me that in theory if the big idler and water pump aren't in the EXACT same spots (WP probably will be, the big idler, not so much) the belt tension and IP/Cam timing will change. I'll probably just bolt the stuff up and double check everything before I loosen the IP and cam pulleys.

Edit: and outward makes sense. Looks like there is enough room to get the pump all the way out of the block.. guess I'll find out.

Also, thanks for the good feedback. This is more along the lines of what I was looking for than "park the car"
 
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Windex

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
The cam to crank timing is the one that I would worry about, but if you bring your cam lock with you, you can check it - seems a lot of work to do on the road...:D

I would de-tension, carefully hold the belt to the pulleys (zip ties, vice grips etc.) then once the job is done - recheck your ign timing in vcds. If you are still in the bottom half of the graph, then things didn't move.
 

bloc

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Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI
I've already had to do an alternator in a parking lot on this car.. I was upset because it was the one trip I didn't bring my alternator pulley tool. Amazingly the parts store alternator already had a brand new INA pulley.

Good idea on the zip ties.. I'll probably make some marks too.. just to freak out whoever ends up with this car after me. :)
In retrospect if the crank-to-pump timing didn't change, then the cam timing won't either. If it's off.. THEN I'll pull the valve cover and pop the cam pulley loose.. no point introducing dust to the crank case unless necessary.
 

ymz

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May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
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2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
Coolant hitting the belt? Such a long trip is not a risk I would be willing to take.
What about all the coolant that's going to gush out of the block when you loosen the water pump? You probably won't need the Dieselgeek pump removal bits, as the pump install is fairly recent, but I have my doubts that you'll be able to do this without removing the engine mount...

BTW: not that I would recommend it, but... countless dealerships and garages have been changing timing belts on these cars without putting in new TTY ("stretch") bolts... so if you watch what you're doing, you should be more-or-less safe doing so as well - at least until you can replace them...

Good luck!

Yuri
 

bloc

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Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI
I'll buy spare coolant, drain the radiator, and probably get a cheap pan to catch the stuff that gushes out. Then look for a town big enough to have a household chemical disposal site.

I understand on the bolts.. but that isn't something I will allow myself to do. I'll just need to add yet another thing to the list of spare parts to have sitting in the garage IN CASE. That collection is getting pretty significant.
 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
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May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
If you feel that strongly about the bolts... since you're in Austin... perhaps Robby (runonbeer.com) may have some hiding in his shop...

Yuri
 

bloc

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Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI
He is out. Says he orders 50 sets at a time too.. He said to check the dealer, but he's noticed the same thing with our local parts departments.

Leave at the crack of dawn tomorrow.. will keep everyone posted on developments, including definitively whether this pump will come out. Thinking I'll do the swap in Denver, where there are likely to be some VW dealerships, in the event I get myself into trouble.
 

runonbeer

Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
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Apr 15, 2002
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'00 Golf 02M, '10 Golf 02E, '02 UTE 02M
I have two complete sets of stretch bolts for the MKIV mount on hand (2 sets is where I officially consider myself to be "out of bolts")
 

bloc

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Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI
When I asked I did mention the mount and roller.. It would seem the roller is the only one I need now though. Either way.. Turns out the new dealer in town had 3 of them. And I'm well on my way to Colorado. Haven't lost any appreciable coolant either.
 

poor1

Veteran Member
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May 3, 2003
Location
UK
TDI
MK4
Response to an email sent to someone most people on here would consider a guru: "Almost all of the aftermarket pumps out there leak a little. Even dealer pumps to some extent. It's frustrating for me too. My Wife's 30k dealer shortblock pump is leaking now.
It's really not even a leak so much as a piled up glob of dried up coolant."

He is confident the bearings are ok, and that is why I'm confident driving this car. The question about changing the pump on the road is in the same vein as why I always carry a netbook and vcds cable, and for any trip over a couple hundred miles, a pretty extensive bag of tools (some specialty VW, like an injection pump lock bolt tool.) IN CASE.

But.. I don't want to sound unappreciative. Just looking for feedback from someone that has direct knowledge of the procedure at hand. My contact hasn't ever tried it, and doesn't think it will work.. but isn't sure. At this point the stretch bolt issue has been settled.. now I'm just curious.
Don't know who told you all aftermarket pumps and some dealers pumps leak. Not in my experience - you're merely trying to justify your argument. It's unlikely to be the new water pump leaking unless the seal is wrongly placed, but if you think it is follow the advice and change it ASP.
 
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jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
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Jul 10, 2006
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spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
as for the pumps leaking I've seen more than a few come in with dried coolant around the "freeze plug" and fewer leaking from the weep hole ... all unacceptable imho ... as for changing the WP with the mount in place, sure it can be done, once you remove the large idle roller (stretch bolt required) ... top bolt is tough the get to though and i use 10mm socket and swivel ... sometimes i change the WP and large roller before removing the mount on TB jobs .... it saves having to work around my engine lift bar until the last critical components have to be swapped
 

Growler

Got Soot Vendor
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Nov 24, 2003
Location
Millersport, Ohio
TDI
Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
ok. dumb question.

I have always removed the mount bracket from the block to get the middle TB cover off of an ALH. is there a way to remove/install it with the mount still in place? does the serp tensioner have to come off to get it out? I usually do not have to remove the serp tensioner to do my ALH TB jobs. I guess I was never shown that its possible, so I never varied from my original (MOGolf/Paramedick) training.

if so, thats great info to have in case I ever need to replace just a waterpump...

I have only hasd to warranty one waterpump for leakage since 2009 when I started doing these jobs on the side. altho I will admit I recently allowed a BRM waterpump O-ring to fall off upon install and didn't notice.

Customer just had to have the pump replaced in Texas while on a road trip.. Still waiting on the bill for that one, but it will be taken care of by me. Big thanks to Alphasenior for taking care of him for me.
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
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spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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ok. dumb question.
I have always removed the mount bracket from the block to get the middle TB cover off of an ALH. is there a way to remove/install it with the mount still in place? does the serp tensioner have to come off to get it out? I usually do not have to remove the serp tensioner to do my ALH TB jobs. I guess I was never shown that its possible, so I never varied from my original (MOGolf/Paramedick) training.
if so, thats great info to have in case I ever need to replace just a waterpump...
I have only hasd to warranty one waterpump for leakage since 2009 when I started doing these jobs on the side. altho I will admit I recently allowed a BRM waterpump O-ring to fall off upon install and didn't notice.
Customer just had to have the pump replaced in Texas while on a road trip.. Still waiting on the bill for that one, but it will be taken care of by me. Big thanks to Alphasenior for taking care of him for me.
you can remove the mid timing cover with the mount in place and this is what i do on all timing belt jobs ...use a 1/4 drive ratchet and socket to get at the top bolt nearest the mount ... you don't need to remove the lower cover or balancer to remove the large idle roller bolt as the lower cover has a notch for removing the large idle roller bolt ;) ... edit!! ... yes the serp tensioner does have to be removed to get the mid cover off
 
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bloc

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Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
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2013 Touareg TDI
Don't know who told you all aftermarket pumps and some dealers pumps leak. Not in my experience - you're merely trying to justify your argument. It's unlikely to be the new water pump leaking unless the seal is wrongly placed, but if you think it is follow the advice and change it ASP.
I removed the timing cover to check and the 13k mile Hepu pump is leaking from the freeze plug/lower weep hole, exactly as this guru predicted, indicating a shaft seal failure, not a bad oring. He may have meant almost all brands -can- have leaks (not necessarily that almost all aftermarket pumps -do- leak), but I'll let him speak up if he wants to.

What exactly do you mean by "merely trying to justify your argument"? That I made up a quote?
 
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Growler

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Millersport, Ohio
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Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
I typically leave them in place and just remove the mount bracket since I have to do that anyways. I find a deep 1/4 drive 10mm socket reaches past the tensioner roller and get at that cover bolt just barely.. every once in a while the tensioner is mounted such that it just blocks the bolt and I will have to loosen it to adjust its position, but they do not need to come off on an ALH.

I also leave the mount bracket in the hole and just work around it so that I dont have to move the motor up and down a bunch on my hanging apparatus.



Been using that for 3 years.. works great for ALH, has a different hole for the BEW, and can also be used on the Common rails and the BRMs.

lots of ways of skinning a cat apparently :)
 
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bloc

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Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
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2013 Touareg TDI
When I had it apart the other day I noticed that if you use a pin in the serp tensioner hole while it is compressed all the way, like when they come new in the box, it'd be pretty easy to get the middle timing cover off without removing the whole tensioner. Kind of a moot point because I use jimbote's approach for my timing belt installs.. But I am finding it interesting how much less needs to be removed for various work than conventional wisdom would allow.
 
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runonbeer

Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Location
Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
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'00 Golf 02M, '10 Golf 02E, '02 UTE 02M
The three bolt holes for the serp tensioner are on the absolute top of my list of most-commonly-stripped-out bolt holes on that engine. It's like they just disappear. That aluminum on the accessory bracket is soft. Powerful soft!

Plus the holes are barely deep enough to get a time-sert to grab right.

Anyway, the reason I'm sitting here typing this is that I prefer not to have to mess with those bolts if I don't have to. Especially after all these years when there's been lots of opportunity for some ding-dong mechanic to throw a serp tensioner at a bouncing belt when it was actually the alternator pulley locked up.
Failure mode for that tensioner incidentally, and it's rare at that, is when the roller bearing grease dries up and is sadly a non-replacement part. This isn't even a really a failure, but I don't like to let em go back out like that.
 
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