gtb2260vk spool vs gt2056v

[andy2]

I'm looking for opinions on the gtb2260vk spool up compared to my current gt2056v.I have done some searching but did not come up with much.My current gt2056v (2.8L Jeep liberty) is at full boost (24 psi) around 2250 rpm.I'm guessing the gtb2260vk will spool as well as my gt2056v but I'm looking for input,Thanks

 

[slamhouse]

Spool is mainly dependant on the tune. And it looks like your not using the full boost potential at 24 psi.

 

[andy2]

I'm not too concearned about maxing out whatever turbo I use.I guess I'm one of the few that would prefer a turbo that is "overkill" for the job even if it comes at the cost of spool up.I would plan on running a gtb2260 at the max pressure that a 3 bar map can safely read.

 

[slamhouse]

Check out the dark side developments website. They have a list of spool speeds for different turbos

 

[keaton]

jealous that you got a 2.8L diesel jeep... getting a tune can change how fast you spool..

who is the manufacture of the 2.8L Diesel?

 

[JFettig]

If you're only pushing it to what a 3bar map can handle, go with a 1756VK.

 

[slamhouse]

A 1756VK can push 29psi? I thought those were maxxed at about 24psi...

 

[JFettig]

You shouldn't give people advice about stuff you don't know anything about.

 

[slamhouse]

I don't think the OP is trying to downgrade

 

[JFettig]

Statement still stands.

The 1756VK can handle as much, if not more than the jeep turbo, it will also spool faster.

 

[andy2]

If you're only pushing it to what a 3bar map can handle, go with a 1756VK.

That would definitely make more sense in pretty much every aspect .I had a 1756vk and a 2260vk in front of me today but I just couldn't seem to resist .

I'll put it on and try it out with the warp 5 nozzles and retuned to up the boost.If I don't like it I'll just put the 2056v back on.

 

[hatemi]

You wont be disapointed

 

[loudspl]

Here's Ryan's chart. Might give some perspective if it's truly accurate. 1756vk should do 2 bar by 2100. I like the looks of that 2260vklr though. 2 bar by 2500, no surge w/8v isn't a bad compromise for a daily driver at all!

 

[storx]

just fyi, im still getting tune adjustments on my 2.0 tdi and i am able to spool the GTB22 12-15psi by 1600rpms and hitting my current max 24psi by 2200rpms and have no surge..

Hmm.. 2566.. ugh i bet that turbo be fun on my car.. haha

 

[hatemi]

I can get 2bar at 2000 with 2260. And it doesn't even surge that much. But at 2300rpm that 2bar surges. On mates car with almost same setup it surges alot easier. Like 1.5bar at 2300rpm. And it really surges...

 

[TDIMeister]

I don't understand why "surge" is worse at 2300 RPM than 2000 RPM at the same PR...

 

[storx]

It could be that 2300 is around where his vanes are opening at a point that the turbo doesn't like... When the vanes get to about 3/4 open for my setup there is a noise that causes a deep vibration through the entire car for a instant second.

 

[chapelhill]

I have played with two Ibiza PD130's both on 2260's, one where surge has been almost impossible to induce and one where it has been stupidly difficult to prevent.

Factors that affect it:
PID controller variables differ with rpm.
Correctness of N75 duty cycle to steady state boost/injected quantity.
(Both of these could adversely affect surge at higher rpm, as can the rate of change of boost from planting the foot with higher rpm)

What I have observed:
Low rpm (1800rpm) and boost below 0.8 bar both cars were similar.

After 1800rpm, one car is able to get to 2.5 bar by 2500rpm and the other not until around 3300 rpm.

I thought difference was most likely to be the exhaust manifold volume, with the problem car on tubular exhaust and the other on OEM cast and modified exhaust manifold relating to PID controller values, but I am not convinced we saw any measurable changes on altering PID parameters. (Mostly to reduce PID values as the N75 map had been custom mapped and required little correction.)

The only other significant difference that could think of to account for this is on the inlet side. For the non problem car I use the oem airfilter box and pipe to the turbo, whereas the problem car has much larger pipe. I wondered how much the air speed/flow pattern at entry to the Turbo could affect the surge as we are definately pushing the envelope.

One thing to note on the problem car, the surge was not consistent, it seemed more as a control induced instability as sometimes it was fine and other times not, even detuning to come away from surge conditions seemed to have much less reduction in surge than I would have expected.

Merry Christmas
Chapelhill

 

[brum]

Same issue with mine GTB1756VK. Pretty low boost was resulting in surge. And it happen to be the turbo intake.

I've proposed an idea how to test in another topic, but I'll do the same here - remove the turbo intake and use fine metal mesh with clam to keep the turbo from big particles. In my setup this eliminated the surge completely and gave me the right direction to go for solving this - better turbo intake. Check http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=364456 for more details.

 

[hatemi]

Sounds familiar. My own car is very close to the problem car as far as parts go. Both AVF Passats, Both with same GTB2260VK. My car has worse boost pipes but both have same IC. Both have similar TIP pipes ie. 3"stainless with 3->2.5reducer at the end. Both have cone filters now since I changed my stock filter to a cone to be able to hear the surge better. Both have modified stock exhaust manifolds as well as stock intake manifolds with modified EGR housings(grinded off the EGR valve but left the ASV sitll in place). Firad 70% on mine and 80% on the other one. Problem car has ported head with larger exhaust valves whereas mine is stock.

The problem car had Bosios prior to these firads. With bosios it made 289hp with 42 degree duration and EGTs past 1050c. With firads it made 308hp with 35 degree duration and 950c EGTs.

The car works pretty damn well except for the surge problem. It has had it with both nozzles, and tunes with 3 different tuners. With stock head it was so bad that 1.3bar was on the verge of surge at 2300rpm. With ported it was able to do 1.5bar at that point.

The problem area seems to be 2200-2900rpm.

 

[chapelhill]

Same issue with mine GTB1756VK. Pretty low boost was resulting in surge. And it happen to be the turbo intake.

I've proposed an idea how to test in another topic, but I'll do the same here - remove the turbo intake and use fine metal mesh with clam to keep the turbo from big particles. In my setup this eliminated the surge completely and gave me the right direction to go for solving this - better turbo intake. Check http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=364456 for more details.

Looking through your thread and what seemed to work, then maybe the issue is standing waves in TIP. My stock Aluminium TIP has next to no problem with surge and also has continuously varying cross section, the car with surge had larger constant diameter pipe and much longer and straighter entry.
Not sure what impact the right angle has, but I suspect it damps standing waves. The Brum solution also has significant changes in cross section.

When the manufacturers specify the surge characteristics they use a continuous injection burn system to power the exhaust turbine rather than our 4 cycle diesel which means we can usually get slightly higher values of boost before surge, but how do they present the air at the turbo inlet, as I guess they will use optimal conditions to present best values of turbo.

 

[andy2]

A ported shroud Compressor housing could be the perfect fix for this issue,or just request less boost.Possibly we are expecting supercharger like boost out of these bigger turbo's when they are simply not made to boost without surge on our smaller engines !

Do some of these cars mentioned have stock intercooler and piping VS a 2.5" FMIC with 2.25" piping for example ?

Also as mentioned a smaller volume cast exh manifold VS a fairly large volume header.Same goes for ALH intake manifold VS a large plentum style manifold.

This might be a reason that some cars with the same turbo surges and another car doesn't ?

After hearing what you all have to say I can't wait to get this turbo on.I was in no rush but now I should have it on by the weekend

 

[storx]

problem is.. there has been 2 people who have tried ported shrouds on 2260 with no change in the surge.. i think next solution option maybe cams>?

 

[chapelhill]

A ported shroud Compressor housing could be the perfect fix for this issue,or just request less boost.Possibly we are expecting supercharger like boost out of these bigger turbo's when they are simply not made to boost without surge on our smaller engines !
Do some of these cars mentioned have stock intercooler and piping VS a 2.5" FMIC with 2.25" piping for example ?
Also as mentioned a smaller volume cast exh manifold VS a fairly large volume header.Same goes for ALH intake manifold VS a large plentum style manifold.
This might be a reason that some cars with the same turbo surges and another car doesn't ?
After hearing what you all have to say I can't wait to get this turbo on.I was in no rush but now I should have it on by the weekend

Requesting less boost than can be achieved and is wanted is self defeating, but boost and injected quantities should be limited for engine life depending on individual priorities.
Some installations simply are much more resistant to surge, once you know what should be achievable it is very disappointing to make do with less.
The differences in achievable boost I have experienced between two similar installations is much more than the effect of minor modifications such as cam, porting etc. Just about anything that will improve flow will help, but not by enough. The difference in Drivability is huge as it is in these rpm's where we do most of the driving.
I think the most likely causes are a control instability, or an issue with airflow close to Turbo inlet. I have experimented with control issues and since I saw no real change although difficult with VCDS logging speed I think it most likely to be airflow on inlet side.
I am using the Ibiza standard PD130 Turbo inlet pipe and have had no issues with surge, using strong tie wraps to locate it as bolt holes do not align with 2260 location, and a short piece of hose to connect the two, just enough to keep metal to metal contact between TIP and Turbo.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3563297&postcount=375

 

[storx]

chapelhill, what did you use to log that... i have noise that was present on both GTB22 turbos i installed at the same rpms that i like to figure out what it is more in detail.. also be nice if we could control it more between those rpms.. as every bit of noise i get is from that rpm range and i am not talking about bad noises.. but just noise in general... super high pitch whine on spoolup and such..

 

[chapelhill]

I used an older version of this:
http://www.ecotrons.com/Accurate_Lambda_Meter.html
Mine has worked fine, but my colleague had problem with his.
Not sure what the best one is nowadays.

This one allowed measurement of rpm from injector pulse signal, two voltage sensor outputs (Using OEM boost sensor and additional exhaust manifold pressure sensor, along with the 02 output at intervals of up to 50 times per second, but 10 times per second was adequate.

 

[andy2]

I have the gtb2260vk on and I'm quite impressed.It spools slightly better than the gt2056v.The only thing to mention is that I never did adjust the stop screw on the gt2056v for all the years I had it.Its possible I could have got it to respond as well or slightly better than the gtb2260vk who know's ?

No compressor surge and it makes the same 24 psi just as quick as the gt2056v.It will bark through the compressor when I build 24 psi at 2000 rpm then let off the go pedal.I first tested the turbo back to back with no other changes made.Still running the warp 2's

I can tell that the compressor isn't too far away form surging and after installing the warp 5's it does bark a bit louder.When I get it tuned for the warp 5's and up the boost it will be that much closer.

 

[storx]

the 2260 is hard to surge from what i can tell on engines newer than alh.. or an alh with a cam.. im hitting boost pretty soon and i have no surge at all.. but i do have that turbo bark if you try to shift at 2k.. so i shift at 2.5k to not bark the turbo..

 

[andy2]

Just a random pics of some turbo's and my intake manifold.The intake manifold was made using an upper intake (air horn) from a GM 6.5td.

Above the intake is the gt2056v on the ahu manifold.The GTB2260kv in the back is a weld job.I bought it already converted to a vaccum accuator and the turbine housing is welded to the exh manifold.We machined a 1" hole in the manifold to remove about 10 spots of weld that had stuck to the inside of the manifold when it was welded .Most of the spots of weld would have stayed put but if only one came loose it could have destroyed the turbine wheel. After installing the turbo I had exhaust leaking out of one of the turbine housing's inlet flange bolt holes.Pulled the turbo off to weld the hole over and all is good now.

There is a vnt15 compressor holding up the GTA4082klnv and beside it is the gt4597.

 

[turbobooster]

From what engines are the two giant turbos?