GTB2060VKLR Building a boost map.

powermandan

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I'm about a month away from fitting a GTB2060VKLR to my 1.9AFN

When I have done turbo swaps in the past, I have been fortunate to be able to get the OEM boost map and just tweak that. As they have all been from 1.9/2.0L engines.

However the 2060 is from a 3 litre engine. So that's not going to work for me this time.

At the same time I am rolling out a logging project that should allow me to record.

- RPM
- EGT
- Exhaust manifold pressure
- Inlet manifold Pressure
- MAF
- AFR
- Fuel pump voltage
- Turbo shaft speed

Trawling the forum if have come up with the following

Compressor:
- Inducer 44.5
- Exducer 60
- Trim 55
- AR is possibly 0.74 (value was listed against gtb2260VK)

I see numerous times the compressor map C226 is described as a close fit to GTB2060 and GTB2260

Tdimeister describes it as

- 60mm exducer
- 42.5 Inducer (calculated)
- 50 Trim
- .51 AR




How do I put this all together and build a boost map?

It seems that I can estimate how much boost turbo will be able to produce at a given RPM. But I will have no idea how much fuel it will take to do it.

I.e. Say I'm injecting 20mg/s at 2000RPM experience tells me that will not product much boost. But I don't see how I could work that out using a compressor map.

Any strategies I could employ would be welcomed
 
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powermandan

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It has just occured to me I could get the Boost map from the 3 litre engine and and increase the RPM labels by about a 3rd

So say I take the 3.0 Merc 2000rpm column. It would be sucking approx the same air as a 1.9 TDI at 3100rpm

Thoughts?
 

PakProtector

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Figure out an rpm based maximum boost mass flow taking up the surge line. So to say, take the surge line as a limit, and solve for rpm based on the mass flow and pressure ratio.

For example, what rpm is allowed at the PR=2 and mass flow of .7 kg/second? I assume you will want a fair bit of boost...so also worry about the numbers with PR=3, and in this case lowest possible mass flow rate of .13 kg/second...what rpm will this require?

Deliverable boost is also going to be a function of vane position. You will want a good set of values for the N75 map so as to take the load off the PID controls and avoid insane over/under boost spikes.

Douglas
 

TDIMeister

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It has just occured to me I could get the Boost map from the 3 litre engine and increase the RPM labels by about a 3rd

So say I take the 3.0 Merc 2000rpm column. It would be sucking approx the same air as a 1.9 TDI at 3100rpm

Thoughts?
In a roundabout way it could be done as you propose, but it leaves too much to assumption; the 3.0 M-B is sufficiently different from just ~1.5X of an ALH TDI, e.g. 4 valves per cylinder, etc. I'd rather start from first principles, but unfortunately, this requires values we don't have other than estimates that range from reasonable educated ones to total wild guesses, (e.g. volumetric efficiency, intercooler effectiveness, pressure drops, compressor isentropic efficiencies, etc.)

Start here and follow the links:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3992811&highlight=swallowing+curve*#post3992811

There used to be an excellent and indispensable online calculator tool for calculating the engine mass flow; I have used it in the links above, but the site is no longer up. I haven't been able to find a suitable replacement. Borg Warner's Match Bot is less intuitive for non-engineers and plots points only on its own maps, but you can take the mass flow numbers calculated in it and transcribe them on whatever map you want to use, as long as you're careful to match the units on the axes. The likelihood of garbage-in=garbage-out is high, but here it is anyway with some initial numbers quickly cobbled together.
 

tdi_my live

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the subject of large turbos on 4-cylinder tdi 1.9 or 2.0 is as old as the engine itself. the gtb2060vklr cannot be compared to the gtb2260vk. First of all, the injection has to be absolutely right so that the turbo can calculate and work properly based on the values in the ecu. the requirement of the N75 map comes from the pedal map. then physics and the PID parameters play a major role.
the gtb2060vklr spools up very nicely and quickly and delivers a lot of air mass and has real potential.
 

burpod

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exactly! you could spend a huge amount of time with theoreticals of compressor maps etc, but i don't think you'll end up with anything really much better than a common sense boost map you could make in 10 mintues, given everything else involved - namely timing and fueling. and pid controller maps suited for such a turbo. i think everything will go to hell in a handbasket pretty quickly once you start testing :D especially if you don't use "real" IQ values by extending fueling limits and the rest of the details thatgo along with that. my 2cents :) perhaps you are already 100% confident in the fueling and have extended IQ limits
 

powermandan

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There used to be an excellent and indispensable online calculator tool for calculating the engine mass flow; I have used it in the links above, but the site is no longer up. I haven't been able to find a suitable replacement. Borg Warner's Match Bot is less intuitive for non-engineers and plots points only on its own maps, but you can take the mass flow numbers calculated in it and transcribe them on whatever map you want to use, as long as you're careful to match the units on the axes. The likelihood of garbage-in=garbage-out is high, but here it is anyway with some initial numbers quickly cobbled together.
Thank you for that link, very useful.

I am probably going to try and get hold of the original maps from the merc and see how they look with a simple conversion and go from there.

Any opinion on max turbo RPM? I've been looking at finding some solid information. But nothing that useful yet
 

Suzuki_dude

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There used to be an excellent and indispensable online calculator tool for calculating the engine mass flow; I have used it in the links above, but the site is no longer up. I haven't been able to find a suitable replacement. Borg Warner's Match Bot is less intuitive for non-engineers and plots points only on its own maps, but you can take the mass flow numbers calculated in it and transcribe them on whatever map you want to use, as long as you're careful to match the units on the axes. The likelihood of garbage-in=garbage-out is high, but here it is anyway with some initial numbers quickly cobbled together.

It's still accessible and functional through the wayback machine.
 

powermandan

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It's still accessible and functional through the wayback machine.
That's quite interesting, is it supposed to plot some sort of graph for you?

On a side note, it would kind of indicate that some claimed HP figures I've seen in the past are optimistic. Even my own I dare say.

Looks like you need be above 2.5 bar to break the 250hp mark on a 1.9tdi
 

TDIMeister

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On a side note, it would kind of indicate that some claimed HP figures I've seen in the past are optimistic. Even my own I dare say.
The calculator will only output numbers based on what you input into it and there's no way to cheat the physics. The reason why people get numbers that are optimistic or pessimistic is that most are quite way off in the crucial parameters like volumetric efficiency (people tend to put inflated numbers, especially for a TDI), BSFC (most haven't a clue what this is and just copy-paste numbers they read in the internet), IC pressure drop (underestimate), IC effectiveness (overestimate) and AFR (completely wrong numbers especially for a Diesel). In one of the above links I calibrate the numbers in the NOT2FAST calculator to an SAE paper on the VW Motorsport R-TDI from 1997, which is based on a 110 HP AFN, and the results correlate very well.
 

TDIMeister

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It's still accessible and functional through the wayback machine.
That's awesome, thanks! Below is a screenshot of all the numbers you plug in (in the fields not in grey) to get the result of the R-TDI at rated power. You can go from there with other scenarios. However, I can guarantee you that your BSFC will be higher and AFR lower than the values given, and volumetric efficiency lower unless you've done head work.

1676226985962.png
 

powermandan

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That's awesome, thanks! Below is a screenshot of all the numbers you plug in (in the fields not in grey) to get the result of the R-TDI at rated power. You can go from there with other scenarios. However, I can guarantee you that your BSFC will be higher and AFR lower than the values given, and volumetric efficiency lower unless you've done head work.

View attachment 129332

Thanks for that. I've ordered some additional pressure transducers and IAT sensors. So I can add them pre and post intercooler and after the Meth nozzle

I'm working on pulling the IQ directly from the ECU. Which I can compare against the wideband. Although it will probably be accurate up to 3000RPM ish as the MAF saturates after that

So hopefully if all goes well I should have some pretty accurate figures.

Annoyingly my other car has just broken down. So I've got to fix that before I can start fitting the turbo.
 

powermandan

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I've just blow the gtb2060vklr up pretty much on its maiden voyage. Which was pretty upsetting. Haven't had the heart to take it to bits yet. But it feels like the bearings have discombobulated

It wasn't a new turbo. But it felt very good at the time of fitting So I'm fairly confident it's something I have done.

Can anyone clarify who has actually run an 2060 or 2260 VKLR if I should be running an oil feed restrictor. I was running a 1mm restrictor at the time.

Also I ran 2.7 bar boost. From what I've read it should have been ok with that.
 

burpod

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yikes. did you go straight to full fueling without checking over logs? probably shouldn't be doing 40psi (or even 30psi) until you've reviewed logs and make sure fueling/timing is all 100% good up to a basic level, boost control is sane, etc. my thoughts for starting something completely new is limit fuel to something very safe that's easily comparable to a known power level. like 35-37mg (stock alh) or 50-60mg (pd130/150) and whatever boost you'd want for that, likely no more than 1.5bar...
 

powermandan

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yikes. did you go straight to full fueling without checking over logs? probably shouldn't be doing 40psi (or even 30psi) until you've reviewed logs and make sure fueling/timing is all 100% good up to a basic level, boost control is sane, etc. my thoughts for starting something completely new is limit fuel to something very safe that's easily comparable to a known power level. like 35-37mg (stock alh) or 50-60mg (pd130/150) and whatever boost you'd want for that, likely no more than 1.5bar...
Boost control was sane. Thanks.
 

adjat84th

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I'm running a 1mm restrictor, but that's because I have the upgraded turbine wheel and a slightly less than perfect oil return. I ran no restrictor on the stock 2260vklr with no issue prior to upgrading this same unit.
Running 2.65bar, with near 3bar on initial spool just fine. The EA288 and its EDC17c64 does however get boost pressure pre-charge cooler which leaves a little headroom, and has it likely closer to the "safe" 2.4bar that the builder recommends.
 

powermandan

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I'm running a 1mm restrictor, but that's because I have the upgraded turbine wheel and a slightly less than perfect oil return. I ran no restrictor on the stock 2260vklr with no issue prior to upgrading this same unit.
Running 2.65bar, with near 3bar on initial spool just fine. The EA288 and its EDC17c64 does however get boost pressure pre-charge cooler which leaves a little headroom, and has it likely closer to the "safe" 2.4bar that the builder recommends.
Thank you for that information. I've canvassed a FB group on the issue also. Got a real mixed bag of replys about the restrictor.

Sounds like it was the boost that killed it. Although, I did blow off a boost pipe on a previous run. So that probably didn't help.

I'll try it without a restrictor and see what my oil pressure looks like and see if I start smoking and turn the boost down to 2.4 max (which was also general consensus on safe boost)
 

adamss24

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Did you use the water cooling lines? I have used the gtb2260vklr without restrictor and it smoked on prolonged idle, had to experiment with oil restrictors and 1-1.5mm was adequate…
 

adamss24

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The fact that you blew a boost pipe doesn’t help, did you fix it right away or you drove the car for a while with popped boost pipe ? The ball bearing cartridges are very sensible to over speed and if the flow of oil and water trough them is not adequate ! Get a new/rebuilt chra and as adviced above take it easy before upping the boost ! The vklr are amazing on boost/transient response but I found them a bit too fragile ! One of my mates had a whole saga with vklr turbines, the vnt cage is held located in place with a few pins and if the bolts retaining the chra stretch or come off due to high EGT they come loose destroying the turbine wheel…I much prefer the vk for that matter !
 

powermandan

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Yes, I have plumbed in the water cooling lines.

So from my other canvassing.

I had
1 x no restrictor people
2 x 1.5mm people
1 x 2.4 mm people.

My turbo is top mount and it is really no trouble to take it on and off.

So I'll try it without a restrictor and work my way down.

My main concern about no restrictor that is loosing oil pressure on engine itself. But I have a gauge so I can monitor that
 

adamss24

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What oil feed are you using ? I had darkside braided oil feed pipe and plate, that is already small bore…
As I said, the vklr start smoking when left on idle if the drain is not adequate or too much flow, you will see it’s wetting the flange/exhaust manifold mating faces when it does it ! I would get in touch with Adam Davidson at pioneering performance, he rebuilds these turbos for over a decade and he might give you some pointers !
As I said, the vklr ball bearing cartridge is very susceptible to over speed, you blew a pipe and the turbo spins out of control ! I would also drill and tap the vnt cage as per vk cages but you need to use high temp inconel bolts as the stock ones shear easily!
Last resort to keep a vklr together on a 2.0 PD tdi was drilling the bolts and stainless steel wire trough them to stop them backing out ! For that reason alone I prefer vk for anything heavy tuned !
I would also get a 2260vklr cartridge, the boost response worsens with less than 0.5 sec but you get much more EGT threshold and much stable boost without creep ! They also don’t surge as bad on small engines !
 

powermandan

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I am using a oil feed I had made at a local hydraulic shop. I would imagine it is comparable to the dark side offering.

Funny enough I was going to ring pioneering performance to see if they could rebuild my existing CHRA ect.

Could you explain why you would want to drill the VNT cage? What issue are you trying to avoid?

Does the 2260 chra just swap over? Is the exhaust housing not larger than the 2060

Thanks
 

powermandan

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That's who REbuilt mine, and Adam is super knowledgeable and great dude.
Agreed. Spent 20 mins on phone with me.

He concluded that it was the boost pipe blowing off that finished turbo. He recommended. Trying to run with no oil restrictor. See if you get smoke. Then work down from there in restrictor size.
 

burpod

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did you take any logs to get a better idea of what actually happened?
 

adamss24

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Yep, gtb2260vklr swaps over. Compressor is the same,
did you take any logs to get a better idea of what actually happened?
Turbo overspeed is what killed the turbo, the stock bearing cartridge cannot withstand sudden increase in speed especially as the restrictor is “restricting” the flow of oil to the bearings !
Good advice to run without restrictor then use one IF you get smoke !
 

bhodgkiss

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I have the same turbo to go onto my AFN. Thats worrying about the turbo dying if you have a simple boost hose pop off? But I guess thats the same for all turbos, if youre already pushing it to the limit? At 2.7 bar I presume you're looking at over 300bhp?
 

powermandan

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I have the same turbo to go onto my AFN. Thats worrying about the turbo dying if you have a simple boost hose pop off? But I guess thats the same for all turbos, if youre already pushing it to the limit? At 2.7 bar I presume you're looking at over 300bhp?

TBH 2.7 bar was too much. After speaking to pioneering performance. He said that typically his customers run around 2.4-2.5bar of boost. But he did note that he has 1 customers running 3 bar. Although he did see that customer a year later for rebuild. Its difficult because you search this forum and there are multiple posts where people report running 2.8bar.

He was quite clear that he does not recommend max boosts for the turbos he builds. When you look at the standard map from the Merc it came off. The max boost it ran was like 1.7bar (I don't have exact numbers to hand) but it was surprising low.

I was a full throttle when it happened. I pulled over put the pipe back on. And the turbo broke on the next run.

Annoyingly I have discovered that the turbo I have 826830 is a bit of an odd ball and nobody produces the turbines for them. So I was advised to have it modified to take 22 turbine. Presumably this means machining the exhaust housing for a slightly larger VNT shroud.

The compressor cover has seen some damage as well. Although from the pictures he thinks that will be ok (picture attached). Otherwise I would have to move up to a min 62mm compressor.

I have this engine in a Van, so I really didn't want to go that large. So I'm pondering my options

I was aiming for around 260hp. (I have 11mm pump and some Chinese 0.320 nozzles) Using the calculator discussed earlier on in the thread. I have PD100 rods. So pushing my luck going for 300 I think. Shame to waste a 2262 on my HP level I think.


On the one hand I could buy another turbo. Same as mine for £400 and cut and weld adapter back onto the compressor housing (which was an absolute PITA the first time) then still be left with the task of setting up the actuator.

Or I could pay £800 and get mine rebuilt. With new CHRA actuator setup etc. But it will now be a 2260 or 2262

Tricky decision
 
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