GTA2056V on my 1Z B4, it's running! I've got questions =)

kooyajerms

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97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Thank you to Whitbread for the custom header. Working on a vehicle that is 2000 miles away, with pictures, texts, pms, and a few phonecalls, a couple redeux through the mail and this sucker is running. I wouldn't have even tried the jeep turbo if it wasn't for Matt. That's some fabrication skill.

Mark Malone's doing the tuning, so this thing is going to rip soon. At the moment I just need to make sure the hardware is working well before I adjust the base tune.

It took 12 hours to finish the install of everything, since the flange bolts are not fun, and installing the intake should go on before the turbo. I had to cut up the new IC pipes for the TIP and outlet, install the EMP gauge, I haven't installed the 3bar yet, so that's still the original IAT sensor.

Parts:
jeep liberty 2056v turbo, Whitbread header, DP vband flange and transition cone, vband clamp, turbo flange gasket, a4 n75, emp copper coil and 1/8 fitting, 3bar map sensor, Race520's soon, egt probe (once the emp is out), custom return line fitting and braided feed line, need to install a brace, but there's no where to bolt to the turbo.

Here's a video of the first startup. (I cranked it for a bit without the n109 to give the turbo some oil first, of course)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SheqivceO0

Finished product (It was still wet by the time it got to me priority mail)
exhaust flange

jeep flange


installed on head


F U motormount, caused us too many problems!


clutch cables cleared after redeux #1 =)


turbo installed! custom TIP barely touches the AC lines, not a problem.



temporary EMP fitting, you should see the gauge, it's 4" huge, from an estate sale! It's sitting in my ipod holder for now.


Check that downpipe out, it's a BEAUTY, check those backpurged welds. Autozone helped with that lower section till I go to the custom shop to weld up the DP/flex/Cat. Ghetto DP! Matt made the flange/transition cone, so that's the most important part, and it looks purty!

 
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kooyajerms

grocery getter
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Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
parts pieces, and redeux

Parts and pieces



This is what you send to your fabricator when your car is not there in person

This is what he sends to make sure that damn motor mount is cleared. This is an aba mount he had to use, so it was smaller by .25" versus my mount, whew it made it though.


 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
First time actually seeing a VNT run, wish I knew the difference beforehand. l would like to know if the sound I hear is normal or it's the wheel eating itself :eek:.

Left over welding residue smells like burnt caramel, it will go away soon, but man was I scared I was melting things

Smokes at idle now, it clears some when I run. But I haven't gone very hard on it.

Question #1
I'm hearing some chatter, that Matt said may be "the wheel chopping air" Too bad I just don't know what that exactly sounds like. If anyone can comment on it, let me know I'm ok. I've held onto that crappy dp I made to see if it isolated it, but I still hear that chopping sound coming out of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqxUYfMwc-4

*seems like this is normal, dp and exhaust installed, and that sound is all but gone*

Question #2
I don't have a vacuum reservoir yet. What do you think it means when I pump the brake pedal and the EMP gauge stops fluttering? Am I losing vac pressure, causing the vanes to close = uhhh nothing coming out of the exhaust manifold?
-I've been having some brake issues (before the 3 week non-op), so I wonder if there's a vac leak somewhere... I've been looking for a while now.

Question #3
Does this log look like the turbo is just lagging, or that I need to adjust the actuator? I guess it's hard to indicate anything when I'm not holding the TPS steady. I know it's early and I haven't romped on it, but I just want to try to set it up correctly before I do the real hwy logs.


Question #4
What's good for EMP? I'm not WOT yet, but with 60%TPS I'm getting 7psi boost, with 12psi emp on buildup, and 1:1 once it's a bit steady.

Question #5
Startup of a VNT different from a Wastegated. Or maybe the tune is doing it? Turn the key to crank, it turns and feels like it hesitates, then the turbo whines and it's running. Just an observation that I wanted to note.

Thank you guys for the help, this custom install has not been easy. I think it will be worth it soon enough.
 
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Whitbread

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Once get the exhaust finished, have someone hold their hand (with a rag) over the tailpipe. That'll increase backpressure and help you find any exhaust leaks, which may be the weird noise you're hearing.

Glad to hear it running though :).
 

12MPGHWY

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I recommend you be careful with the actuator adjustment. If there is too much differential pressure between intake and exhaust it will destroy the thrust bearing and or snap the shaft.

Absolute exhaust pressure is not as important as differential pressure.
 
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Sprocket

Sprockette's hubby
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Nov 18, 2004
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MI
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2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Eco Diesel, 2005 Passat Silverstone Grey, 1996 Passat Storm Grey
That's fricken awesome Jeremy!
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
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Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
12MPGHWY said:
I recommend you be careful with the actuator adjustment. If there is too much differential pressure between intake and exhaust it will destroy the thrust bearing and or snap the shaft.

Absolute exhaust pressure is not as important as differential pressure.
Collin how do I take care of differential pressure...
I haven't adjusted anything yet, did you keep your actuator at the stock adjustment?

The ABA mount I did not use, Matt or Frank could answer that question better.
 

Spulen81

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Warners, NY
The mount bracket in the mockup pic is a MK2 mount, you can tell by the 3 holes. They are the same size and everything, just the mount holes are different. ABA mount brackets bolt right up and will work fine. They have the single mount hole, look the same etc.
 

12MPGHWY

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You have to watch the boost gauge and exhaust pressure gauge at the same time.

Or you could buy a differential pressure gauge.

absolute exhaust pressure is of concern to the exhaust valves, differential pressure is of concern to the turbine life.

kooyajerms said:
Collin how do I take care of differential pressure...
I haven't adjusted anything yet, did you keep your actuator at the stock adjustment?

The ABA mount I did not use, Matt or Frank could answer that question better.
 

12MPGHWY

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Interesting, I am wondering if this would be an approach that would work to mount a Mk4 turbo setup in a Mk3.

Spulen81 said:
The mount bracket in the mockup pic is a MK2 mount, you can tell by the 3 holes. They are the same size and everything, just the mount holes are different. ABA mount brackets bolt right up and will work fine. They have the single mount hole, look the same etc.
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
12MPGHWY said:
You have to watch the boost gauge and exhaust pressure gauge at the same time.

Or you could buy a differential pressure gauge.

absolute exhaust pressure is of concern to the exhaust valves, differential pressure is of concern to the turbine life.
I mentioned it here.

Question #4
What's good for EMP? I'm not WOT yet, but with 60%TPS I'm getting 7psi boost, with 12psi emp on buildup, and 1:1 once it's a bit steady.
 

D_Bat

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1998 Jetta TDI
Gratz to you. I finally got my 2056 mounted up to my car but mines from a Mercedes 320CL Bluetech. I think it's got slightly different specs. Stock the Merc makes 224hp. That's why I went with mine instead of the Jeep one. This one was a biznitch to get to mount and I didn't want to make a tubular header but it would have helped out a lot.

I take it you had a shop do most of the welding for you?
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
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Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
I don't know anything about the 2056 but on a 17/22(52) roughly 2-3 EMP:IMP is normal while getting things up to speed and ~1.5:1 once things are spooled up. The tuning and actuator adjustment can have significant effects on this though. I've seen 1:1 and 3:1 under similar operating conditions with tuning and actuator adjustment changes.

Your couple data points look good to me (does not mean much though :))

Oh - by the way - cool project!
 

TDIsyncro

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Congrats on getting it in. :cool:


kooyajerms said:
Question #1
I'm hearing some chatter, that Matt said may be "the wheel chopping air" Too bad I just don't know what that exactly sounds like. If anyone can comment on it, let me know I'm ok. I've held onto that crappy dp I made to see if it isolated it, but I still hear that chopping sound coming out of it.

What are the two load "pop" noises? Otherwise I don't hink I hear anything wrong..but it does sound like the vanes on the turbo may not be closed down (lack of vacum) while it idling. DId you check position to see if it is pulled all away up to the stop screw when idling?


kooyajerms said:
Question #4
What's good for EMP? I'm not WOT yet, but with 60%TPS I'm getting 7psi boost, with 12psi emp on buildup, and 1:1 once it's a bit steady.
I have run mine with a number of different settings. 30psi boost with 40psi initial emp spike..during higher RPM pull emp is around 35pci at 30psi boost. Without big enough injectors, you will not be able to get lots of boost. At 60% TPS I get full boost...your tune is out, or you are very short of fuel, or vanes are not shut from lack of vacuum. I am not sure why you have 12psi EMP at 7psi..I am prety sure I am pretty much 1-1 at that boost level. Again, please check your actuator position. You should also put on mityvac and test range manually. Rod should start closing at 2-3", and be fully closed by 17-19".

I hope this helps you sort it out.
 

D_Bat

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Melbourne, Fl.
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1998 Jetta TDI
I had a actuator problem when i first got mine going. Wasn't making boost till real late. Adjusted the rod and now I make full boost at 2250 or so rpm.

How high of boost can these 2056's run? I'm only at 21psi right now, I know I'm out flowing my fueling though. I've got PP764's right now. I still need to do some more logging and a little more tuning but it's almost fully done. I've been driving it and loving it but it still needs a little work.

When I got the actuator working I found that I had an exhaust leak since the pressure builds up in the manifold. :(
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Louis, I'm checking out the actuator now. That noise is wierd.. I'll see if it does it again. I hope the vanes not closing is due to the lack of a vacuum reservoir... because I really don't want it to be some other problem with my brakebooster of vacuum pump.

*actuator checks out, 2-3" starts to move 19" fully extended*



Here are some more logs I forgot to put up, if anyone wants to decipher more things.

Block 4 same kind of 2nd gear runs
[/IMG]

Block 3 same kind of 2nd gear runs
[/IMG]
 
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TDIsyncro

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kooyajerms said:
...

*actuator checks out, 2-3" starts to move 19" fully extended*

You do mean fully retracted (not extended) at 19"..retracted and lever is sitting against the adjustable set-screw?
 

D_Bat

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Location
Melbourne, Fl.
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1998 Jetta TDI
18-19 it should be fulled pulled back yes. That's how I adjusted mine and that's what it should be set at according to the VNT actuator replacement instructions.

Also make sure you are getting proper vacuum. Just connect a boost/vacuum gauge to your vacuum pump which your brake booster is connected to. Make sure it's pulled 20+ and then connect it to your new N75 valve that is supposed to go to the turbo and make sure that is pulling 18 or so at idle to make sure your N75 is working properly.

You might also want to log 10 or 11. I forget which one but it's the one that has requested and actual MAP values.
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
ok so lets say the full retraction does not hit the stop screw, what's the problem? Do I need to turn the stop screw? What will it help if I turn the stop screw to where full retraction is.... if it can't move any further already if I up the HG"


Sorry if that's confusing, I don't know how to better articulate that.

Dbat, post 3 has a map log.

No vac gauge darn it. Do I measure the n75 vacuum at... the hose that goes to the VNT actuator when I do have a gauge?
 

jollyGreenGiant

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03 Golf TDI GLS ( my 5th TDI ), 03 Eurovan GLS - VR6 :(
Assuming everything else is working properly at this point, you need to shorten the actuator quite a bit based on your 011 log, there's way too much lag and the N75 duty cycle is too low, I find that under prolonged full load in 4th gear the N75 on a properly setup actuator hangs out in the 70-75% range.
This is a car I put an actuator on last week. I usually install them with a base adjustment using a mityvac and then log on the highway in 4th/5th gear from 2K up to 4.5K full pedal, then go back to the garage, analyze it and make an adjustment... Usually it's good to go after the adjustment but I always make a repeat run to make sure. Just using the mityvac isn't enough as far as I'm concerned. You want a quick overshoot and then under full prolonged load, there shouldn't be any creep and the N75 as indicated above needs to be in a healthy control loop zone of around 75%.

Click for Bigger Image:
 

TDIsyncro

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kooyajerms said:
ok so lets say the full retraction does not hit the stop screw, what's the problem? Do I need to turn the stop screw? What will it help if I turn the stop screw to where full retraction is.... if it can't move any further already if I up the HG"


Sorry if that's confusing, I don't know how to better articulate that.

Dbat, post 3 has a map log.

No vac gauge darn it. Do I measure the n75 vacuum at... the hose that goes to the VNT actuator when I do have a gauge?
If you are not hitting the stop screw, there must be an indexing issues. That can be the only answer to that problem. Did you reindex the exhaust housing on the bearing cartriage? The worry here is if it is that far out, the vane tips can hit the exhaust wheel because fully open is to far open.
 

D_Bat

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On my 2056 from the merc I had to shorten the actuator arm that came out of the turbo. The length that the arm moves on mine was about 1.25" and the stock VNT-15/VNT-17 actuators only move 1/2-3/4". Test yours to see how much yours moves. So on mine, I cut the actuator arm off, ground off part of it, then welded it back on so that the throw of the arm on the turbo was only 3/4".

Yours is probably the same way. If I recall I saw somebody that rigged up some weird hinge thing to compensate and multiply the range for which theirs moved. It wasn't too clean so I went with the modification of the arm way. Mine doesn't have a stop screw at all so I just made it fully closed at 18". I don't know if that's good or bad but it works.
 

dieseleux

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Pas assez loin pour vider ma tank!
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D_Bat said:
Yours is probably the same way. If I recall I saw somebody that rigged up some weird hinge thing to compensate and multiply the range for which theirs moved. It wasn't too clean so I went with the modification of the arm way. Mine doesn't have a stop screw at all so I just made it fully closed at 18". I don't know if that's good or bad but it works.

Me!:D

http://torquedelight.devilproject.net/Dieseleux/Installation%20GTB2056VL/DSC05947a.jpg.php
http://torquedelight.devilproject.net/Dieseleux/Installation%20GTB2056VL/DSC05958a.jpg.php

VW actuator have 500 to 600mil range.
My GTB2056VL have 3/4inch range and i did not weld on the arm of my new turbo!
I multiply by 1,5 with this door hinge.
Stop screw is important, this screw adjust vane to not over choke engine and not built up too high pressure on rapid transient.
I make ajustement of stop screw with this procedure, put full vacuum on actuator, with hot engine at neutral, push to 2000rpm, turn stop screw for 2 to 4 psi intake pressure.



Dieseleux
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
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Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Thank you for reading the log for me JGG. I will adjust the vane as you said, but what TDIsyncro said about the indexing may be the issue. I think I need to take care of that first hand.


TDIsyncro said:
If you are not hitting the stop screw, there must be an indexing issues. That can be the only answer to that problem. Did you reindex the exhaust housing on the bearing cartriage? The worry here is if it is that far out, the vane tips can hit the exhaust wheel because fully open is to far open.
I sure hope is it's not that far out.
I used your CAD or 3d file you sent me louis and tried to print it up to fit exactly into the housing. It was just so wierd, when I would change the ratio, the degree change would mess me up. I printed like 5 versions, to see which one best made the angles. So YES, my indexing may be off, but I just am not sure if my printout was giving me spot on measurements...


*I got the DP done at a shop, flex and CAT, and they put a 2.5 straight pipe to finish it off. All for $200, that's a steal! Glad I found them.*

I run her harder tonight before seeing the thread about the stop screw. Got it up to 15psi boost at 3.2rpms and it was really rippin. Yes it's lagging like JGG said. I hope my stopscrew is a non issue and all I need to do is adjust the actuator. It's also pretty smokey, hopefully we can blame the lag.

There's a gross resonance at 3k rpms though. I'll try to upload a video again, it just takes so dang long. Very different sounds than my k03/k04.


Here is a video of it this morning before getting the DP done.


Jeremy
 
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TDIsyncro

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Sorry, I don't mean to scare you. I just hope that you check it out before you have damage. If you pull the actuator rod of the lever, and the lever does not reach the stop screw, YOU MUST reclock the turbo before using your car anymore.:( There is only a very narrow range of correct positioning for bearing housing/exhaust housing. If you play around with it, you will see what I mean. To far one way and vanes will not close enough, too far the other way and vanes open too much. It's because the littel adjuster arms inside hit the three guide wheels..one way or the other way. Perfect orientation set it so that it opens and closes in the right range.

You will have a lot of lag until you get lever to reach stop screw because it needs to be in this poistion until you get spool. It really makes a huge difference!

I am not sure why you had problems with the template. :confused: I plot 1:1 on 8.5x11 papper from AutoCAD and it is perfect match. Did you not have AutoCAD, or did you have print config issues?

What do you have for a tune to go along with turbo? You should be able to pin 25+ psi at 3200RPM even without enough fuel. Just be carefull you dont blow your head gasket. :D
 

TDIsyncro

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kooyajerms said:
There's a gross resonance at 3k rpms though. I'll try to upload a video again, it just takes so dang long. Very different sounds than my k03/k04.
Jeremy
Couple potential reasons. Part of that will be because if cruizing under no load at 3k, your vanes should be almost shut, if they cant shut exhaust is loud and buzzy. Also, this is a mcuh larger turbo and even my car makes a pretty loud sound when boost rolls on. Its just moving a big volume of air and that sounds cool! lol
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
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May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Thanks for the responses Louis, I really do appreciate your diagnosis.
I don't have a real autocad program, I used some freeware, and at 1:1 it would print a big ol' circle. Nice catching the indexing though. I was keeping that a secret subconsciously, because I didn't want to reopen it.

I had asked in my reclocking thread/ or I asked Matt and he said a degree or two shouldn't have been an issue. I guess that was wrong.

Tune is a base aligator tune from Mark. I'm still 2.5 bar sensor, so yes it's still low and I haven't pushed it pushed it. I gotta check the indexing.


Here's me running. Don't mind the horrible buzz, that's the emp gauge. It's still reading 1:1 maybe 1:1.25. (this was before you told me my indexing was wrong)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D2Zd8BwMyM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzd7hOxOZRc
 

Whitbread

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kooyajerms said:
Thanks for the responses Louis, I really do appreciate your diagnosis.
I don't have a real autocad program, I used some freeware, and at 1:1 it would print a big ol' circle. Nice catching the indexing though. I was keeping that a secret subconsciously, because I didn't want to reopen it.

I had asked in my reclocking thread/ or I asked Matt and he said a degree or two shouldn't have been an issue. I guess that was wrong.
A degree is ~.040" distance around the circle without going out in the garage to measure the exact diameter of the chra (guessed 5.5" diameter). How far is the lever away from the stop screw at full retraction? IIRC, I set the clocking at 55.5* on the beetle from original position.

It almost sounds like an exhaust leak in those videos. Have you found any evidence of one?
 
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