Goodbye 505.01, Hello Delvac 1
- Thread starter GMARK
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GMARK
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SUNRG,
In looking at the difference in the calcium numbers between Pentosin 505.01 and Delvac, remember the purpose of Ca as part of the oil's composition (a detergent).
See link: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/basic_lubrication_design.htm
I find that simply looking at the total values of an oil's LAP to be rather short-sided. As you have posted before, IIRC, Elf 506.01 has the highest LAP of approved oils for the PD, and it stands-up very well against Delvac 1. Even superior in some respects.
Analysis of friction modifiers (phosphorous), and anti-wear/extreme pressure additives (zinc) also shows favorable numbers for Elf 506.01, but that's getting off-topic*. The real difference to me as far as 505.01 goes, is that being Group III, they are less thermally stable and some have shown an unexpected tendency toward oxidation because of their long-chain/short-chain molecular composition. I believe any PAO/Ester basestock to be superior to hydrocracked conventional oils, regardless of additive packages used in the GIII oils. Do I think Delvac is superior? Yes. It has a robust additive package, and what I consider to be a much better basestock.
Regarding the Amsoil AFL:
Remember that Amsoil refuses to submit their products for official certification, but will claim that they meet or exceed manufacturer's specifications. I do believe they make a good product, but in re-formulating AFL from HDD to LDD, aren't you really saying that the oil was effectively "dumbed down" for use in the PD?
I'm willing to bet (obviously), that I'm correct in my choice of Delvac 1. After all, it is being used successfully unit-injector type in engines costing more than my Jetta. If I'm wrong, I'll post it here for all to know and see. Everyone can learn from what I'm doing, whether you agree with it, or think I'm a total idiot for trying.
Respectfully agreeing to disagree,
GMARK
*Let's save our 506.01 discussion for another time.
In looking at the difference in the calcium numbers between Pentosin 505.01 and Delvac, remember the purpose of Ca as part of the oil's composition (a detergent).
See link: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/basic_lubrication_design.htm
I find that simply looking at the total values of an oil's LAP to be rather short-sided. As you have posted before, IIRC, Elf 506.01 has the highest LAP of approved oils for the PD, and it stands-up very well against Delvac 1. Even superior in some respects.
Analysis of friction modifiers (phosphorous), and anti-wear/extreme pressure additives (zinc) also shows favorable numbers for Elf 506.01, but that's getting off-topic*. The real difference to me as far as 505.01 goes, is that being Group III, they are less thermally stable and some have shown an unexpected tendency toward oxidation because of their long-chain/short-chain molecular composition. I believe any PAO/Ester basestock to be superior to hydrocracked conventional oils, regardless of additive packages used in the GIII oils. Do I think Delvac is superior? Yes. It has a robust additive package, and what I consider to be a much better basestock.
Regarding the Amsoil AFL:
Remember that Amsoil refuses to submit their products for official certification, but will claim that they meet or exceed manufacturer's specifications. I do believe they make a good product, but in re-formulating AFL from HDD to LDD, aren't you really saying that the oil was effectively "dumbed down" for use in the PD?
I'm willing to bet (obviously), that I'm correct in my choice of Delvac 1. After all, it is being used successfully unit-injector type in engines costing more than my Jetta. If I'm wrong, I'll post it here for all to know and see. Everyone can learn from what I'm doing, whether you agree with it, or think I'm a total idiot for trying.
Respectfully agreeing to disagree,
GMARK
*Let's save our 506.01 discussion for another time.
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Amen.DrewD said:
I'm not gonna predict what's gonna happen, I don't know enough. So, I'm an interested observer. If this experiment is successful, then my fears about used PDs having been run on non-505.01 oil are lessened.
To those that have flamed Mark - it's his engine, he paid for it. If it catastrophically fails, I think he understands the consequences and is prepared for them
d2305
Veteran Member
GMARK said:SUNRG,
In looking at the difference in the calcium numbers between Pentosin 505.01 and Delvac, remember the purpose of Ca as part of the oil's composition (a detergent).
See link: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/basic_lubrication_design.htm
I find that simply looking at the total values of an oil's LAP to be rather short-sided. As you have posted before, IIRC, Elf 506.01 has the highest LAP of approved oils for the PD, and it stands-up very well against Delvac 1. Even superior in some respects.
Analysis of friction modifiers (phosphorous), and anti-wear/extreme pressure additives (zinc) also shows favorable numbers for Elf 506.01, but that's getting off-topic*. The real difference to me as far as 505.01 goes, is that being Group III, they are less thermally stable and some have shown an unexpected tendency toward oxidation because of their long-chain/short-chain molecular composition. I believe any PAO/Ester basestock to be superior to hydrocracked conventional oils, regardless of additive packages used in the GIII oils. Do I think Delvac is superior? Yes. It has a robust additive package, and what I consider to be a much better basestock.
Regarding the Amsoil AFL:
Remember that Amsoil refuses to submit their products for official certification, but will claim that they meet or exceed manufacturer's specifications. I do believe they make a good product, but in re-formulating AFL from HDD to LDD, aren't you really saying that the oil was effectively "dumbed down" for use in the PD?
I'm willing to bet (obviously), that I'm correct in my choice of Delvac 1. After all, it is being used successfully unit-injector type in engines costing more than my Jetta. If I'm wrong, I'll post it here for all to know and see. Everyone can learn from what I'm doing, whether you agree with it, or think I'm a total idiot for trying.
Respectfully agreeing to disagree,
GMARK
*Let's save our 506.01 discussion for another time.[/quote}
I asked about the change in Amsoil and was assured that it's still PAO base stock. I received a case last week, and will try it next oil change. Cost $5.99 a quart shipped.
Long term effects
Why take unnecessary chances...
Its like eating high cholesterol foods or using tobacco, the results will be seen a long time after ingesting them and it will be too late then.d2305 said:I asked about the change in Amsoil and was assured that it's still PAO base stock. I received a case last week, and will try it next oil change. Cost $5.99 a quart shipped.
Why take unnecessary chances...
d2305
Veteran Member
I know Amsoil is a small company with tier marketing, but I would rather run a PAO oil, and I would rather send my money to Ohio than Paris. How much confidence do you have in VW dealers to fix TDIs when the warranty does cover the problem?
nortones2
Veteran Member
What makes you think the Amsoil 505.01 doppelganger is a PAO oil?
d2305
Veteran Member
If I'm going to pay for a synthetic oil, I want to get a synthetic oil. All of the 505.01 oils are blends. I may destroy my engine, but I think not. The real tests comes when I (with adult supervision) change the Timing Belt.nortones2 said:
nortones2
Veteran Member
fair enough, but are you sure the Amsoil is a synth? I read the blurb they put out, and it seems to be a semi-synth, because they are not trumpeting 100% synthetic. May be mistaken, but thats my reading...
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d2305
Veteran Member
Andy said that it's PAO base stock. Some of the other Amsoil products are group III base stocks HDD or something like that.nortones2 said:
GMARK
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3k Delvac 1 sample tapped and sent off to the lab. I'll post the UOA later next week.
G
G
Reggie
Veteran Member
I haven't kept up with the thread because there was too much useless flaming, but have you had a peek under the valve cover to see what it looked like?GMARK said:
Thanks for offering your engine for the sake of gathering data!
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
Well I see a lot of "belief" around here but few hard facts, such as in "I fail to believe that a 505.01 oil will be as good as a...whatever".
One "belief" people have is that when the warranty is over they can do what they want. We forget though that if ever there was a serious issue with PD injector cam failures and VW issued a recall even after the warranty expired, you can be sure they'd pay for zero towards your repairs if you didn't maintain the car to their specs and that includes the oil you use.
Fair enough, people want to save money, but in terms of your $ per mile cost, oil is so insignificant, even if 505.01 costs double what Delvac does, it just ain't going to be a huge impact.
I'm pretty sure VW didn't impose this spec for their good pleasure. They claim catastrophic cam failure. There have been instances of cam failure. Can we prove that it was the oil? It would be interesting to see stats on 505.01 vs non 505.01 cam failures. I'm sure there should be numbers by now.
In any case there are places I drive where a catastrophic engine failure wouldn't be fun and would in fact be downright dangerous (anyone living near Montreal knows what I mean: Metropolitan Expressway, Champlain Bridge, 15 north off the Champlain Bridge, Turcot Interchange, etc).
So while it will be interesting to see what transpires of this, I would have to say that I do think that a fool and his money are soon parted. Maybe I'm being too anal about it; I fly and wouldn't dream of using other than the mfg's spec or better oil, or fuel. That said, I'd rather have an engine failure in my plane over farm country than on the Champlain Bridge when the traffic is moving at 100+ km/h and there's no place to safely pull off...I'd have a chance of walking out of the plane alive, and maybe even using it again.
One "belief" people have is that when the warranty is over they can do what they want. We forget though that if ever there was a serious issue with PD injector cam failures and VW issued a recall even after the warranty expired, you can be sure they'd pay for zero towards your repairs if you didn't maintain the car to their specs and that includes the oil you use.
Fair enough, people want to save money, but in terms of your $ per mile cost, oil is so insignificant, even if 505.01 costs double what Delvac does, it just ain't going to be a huge impact.
I'm pretty sure VW didn't impose this spec for their good pleasure. They claim catastrophic cam failure. There have been instances of cam failure. Can we prove that it was the oil? It would be interesting to see stats on 505.01 vs non 505.01 cam failures. I'm sure there should be numbers by now.
In any case there are places I drive where a catastrophic engine failure wouldn't be fun and would in fact be downright dangerous (anyone living near Montreal knows what I mean: Metropolitan Expressway, Champlain Bridge, 15 north off the Champlain Bridge, Turcot Interchange, etc).
So while it will be interesting to see what transpires of this, I would have to say that I do think that a fool and his money are soon parted. Maybe I'm being too anal about it; I fly and wouldn't dream of using other than the mfg's spec or better oil, or fuel. That said, I'd rather have an engine failure in my plane over farm country than on the Champlain Bridge when the traffic is moving at 100+ km/h and there's no place to safely pull off...I'd have a chance of walking out of the plane alive, and maybe even using it again.
Zero10
Veteran Member
Okay, but you might have missed his points here.
1) He's not doing it to save money, he's doing it to prove that the 505.01 spec is BS
2) He honestly believes this oil is better than what the manufacturer specifies. So far he's in line with what you are saying
3) There is very little chance of sudden catastrophic engine failure. Any failures of that nature would most likely not be a result of using the wrong oil.
IMO the worst case here is lowered injection pressure caused by ground-down lobes on the camshaft. From there, if the tolerance got excessive I could see an injector being damaged (i.e. breaking off), but even that would allow the engine to continue to turn, and maybe even run on 3 cylinders...
I have heard several references to the non-505.01 threads on here, but let's remember, one of those was a non-diesel oil thread, and is irrelevant to this discussion. Not to mention, IIRC one of those threads was about valve lifter failure, not an injector problem.
1) He's not doing it to save money, he's doing it to prove that the 505.01 spec is BS
2) He honestly believes this oil is better than what the manufacturer specifies. So far he's in line with what you are saying
3) There is very little chance of sudden catastrophic engine failure. Any failures of that nature would most likely not be a result of using the wrong oil.
IMO the worst case here is lowered injection pressure caused by ground-down lobes on the camshaft. From there, if the tolerance got excessive I could see an injector being damaged (i.e. breaking off), but even that would allow the engine to continue to turn, and maybe even run on 3 cylinders...
I have heard several references to the non-505.01 threads on here, but let's remember, one of those was a non-diesel oil thread, and is irrelevant to this discussion. Not to mention, IIRC one of those threads was about valve lifter failure, not an injector problem.
GCMarx
Veteran Member
No!
NO.
There is no way that one data point can prove or disprove ANYTHING. This is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence". If you want to prove anything about the 505.01 spec, you need two fleets of cars, one running 505.01 and one running whatever other oil you want. Until that happens, you can't prove ANYTHING by this "experiment".
No. No, no, no, no, no.Zero10 said:
NO.
There is no way that one data point can prove or disprove ANYTHING. This is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence". If you want to prove anything about the 505.01 spec, you need two fleets of cars, one running 505.01 and one running whatever other oil you want. Until that happens, you can't prove ANYTHING by this "experiment".
nortones2
Veteran Member
AS GCM says! IIRC, once case hardening on a cam goes, decline is quite rapid. There are going to be large fragments of metal circulating the engine. UOA will tell you little about this, until after the event. Even if the engine simply fails to limp mode, how would you feel if an advocate of "505.01 is BS" was to influence a driver on this imprudent line, and that vehicle was in a multi-lane freeway, or on the autobahn at 120, when the engine started to fail? VW can't hide behind a nom-de plume.
I just did an oil change and decided it was worth paying the extra £10, just so i wouldn't feel guilty whenever i see the title of this thread.
I could save a whole £20 a year by using a non 505.01 spec oil, and that could buy me.......er.......4 packs of cigs.........which i will buy anyway, and will have smoked in approx '6 days'.
I could save a whole £20 a year by using a non 505.01 spec oil, and that could buy me.......er.......4 packs of cigs.........which i will buy anyway, and will have smoked in approx '6 days'.
GMARK
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Judging from some of the vitriol in these posts, it almost seems as if some of you are actually afraid that I just might be correct in my thinking. Why get wrapped around the axle over this?
I will ask you to do the following if so inclined:
Carefully compare the test sequences for ACEA A3/B3 (gasoline/LDD/ 505.01), and ACEA E6/E7 (HDD).
You might be very surprised at what you find if you take the time to review all of the information.
I know that Drivbiwire posted these test protocols here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.phpt=131283&page=6
They may also be found at: www.acea.be
Keep those cards and letters coming!
GMARK
I will ask you to do the following if so inclined:
Carefully compare the test sequences for ACEA A3/B3 (gasoline/LDD/ 505.01), and ACEA E6/E7 (HDD).
You might be very surprised at what you find if you take the time to review all of the information.
I know that Drivbiwire posted these test protocols here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.phpt=131283&page=6
They may also be found at: www.acea.be
Keep those cards and letters coming!
GMARK
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GCMarx
Veteran Member
I'm not sure where you're seeing any vitriol. I just pointed out that your "experiment" doesn't prove a damn thing. Not vitriolic, just scientific.
GMARK
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GCMarx,
I didn't take your remarks as vitriolic, but then you haven't seen some of the "fan mail" I have received via private message either.
I haven't asked for anyone's approval of what I'm doing, nor do I advise others to follow suit. I would think that such a statement would be completely understandable and sufficient for anyone.
Respectfully,
GMARK
I didn't take your remarks as vitriolic, but then you haven't seen some of the "fan mail" I have received via private message either.
I haven't asked for anyone's approval of what I'm doing, nor do I advise others to follow suit. I would think that such a statement would be completely understandable and sufficient for anyone.
Respectfully,
GMARK
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
As I've said before, I'm not sure about what's going to happen, and agree that most people should run 505.01, but that sudden catastrophic failure is unlikely. Someone experimenting with this, however, should be prepared for such a failure, though, which is why most should run 505.01.
I can see why certain people would feel this way, though. What I say to them is that he wants to see for himself how necessary 505.01 is to the PD engine. He's prepared to swallow the cost of a new engine. He's prepared to deal with the consequences.
Also, I do agree that a TRUE test of 505.01 vs. Delvac would best be done in a fleet environment, but that's going to be difficult to do.
That said, I AM interested in this test, as if the experiment is a success, maybe a used PD-TDI isn't such a bad thing. Right now, I would RUN FAR away from a used PD-TDI, unless it had full service records.
I can see why certain people would feel this way, though. What I say to them is that he wants to see for himself how necessary 505.01 is to the PD engine. He's prepared to swallow the cost of a new engine. He's prepared to deal with the consequences.
Also, I do agree that a TRUE test of 505.01 vs. Delvac would best be done in a fleet environment, but that's going to be difficult to do.
That said, I AM interested in this test, as if the experiment is a success, maybe a used PD-TDI isn't such a bad thing. Right now, I would RUN FAR away from a used PD-TDI, unless it had full service records.
mparker326
Veteran Member
You tie in 505.01 with ACEA A3/B3. 505.01 is VW specific spec not an ACEA spec. From what I have read on here, no one other than VW knows what the exact details are of 505.01. Correct me if I am wrong.
LDD = Apples and HDD = Oranges. However, your test may prove that these are both fruits and taste good to a TDI.
Best of luck!
vwrobert51
Veteran Member
this is so funny, you would think if vw put warning lables all over about sudden failures from non 50501 oil, yet you still want to ignore it, (if the lable says dont touch hornet nest or you will get stung, someone will still want to poke finger in nest just to see what will happen! then when they get stung, they want to sue and claim it wasnt their fault! and when that happens, all i can say is YOU SEE STUPED ,NOW YOU KNOW!!! NOW YOU CAN PAY FOR YOUR STUPIDITY.
NOW YOU CAN PAY FOR YOUR STUPIDITY. mparker326
Veteran Member
GMARK has always maintained this is his choice.
VWRobert, thank you for producing the photos from the gasser oil failure in a PD. Any photos/stories to back up
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
However, he's said that he KNOWS that if there is a failure, it's his responsibility, and that he is his own warranty now.
If that was meant for me, im not afraid you might be correct at all, i hope you are for the sake of your wallet.GMARK said:
I just use the right oil for my own peace of mind, whats the point in using any other?
Its a bit like having coke on your cornflakes instead of milk?
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Using that analogy, except modified for root beer, to make it work better (because I can make a point using it)...Reflex130 said:
Maybe he likes the taste of root beer better than the taste of milk, and maybe he likes the taste of cornflakes, and, he also likes the taste of root beer mixed with vanilla ice cream (a root beer float, of course) better than the taste of a vanilla milkshake, so he's going to see how root beer with cereal taste together?
After all, beereal has been done before...