Glx Tdi Syncro

[queek]

My donor car was missing that piece, but luckily we don't have too many days that are that cold in NJ - it's usually only drops that low overnight and for that I am thinking a plug-in coolant heater.

 

[GiGGer]

Ok, you should be ok.

If you want one, you would have to look for a 96/97 TDI Passat.

But those pads also isolate the sound of the engine. You can test it by being on the road at idle, and move over to a dirt road and you can ear the difference in the engine sound. Probably noice bouncing on the road.

So, that also helps remove noise.

 

[queek]

Focusing on trans planning - so many combinations! I found some differences between the Bentley manual and ETKA - which to believe? Pulling off the broken TDI 5th gear set and counting teeth, something didn't jive. Turns out the donor TDI had a CTN instead of CHA as listed in the Bentley (I never bothered cleaning off the crust to read the model number.) : different 5th and final drive ratios. This motivated me to take a more in depth look at what my gearing options are.

I was planning on using the Syncro CBC gears and adding something like a .681 5th gear for the highway, but with the 3.938 final at 2500 rpm I would still only be going 64mph in 5th gear compared to 72mph with the stock TDI gearing.

Is there a 5th gear set taller than .681 available to add some top end to the syncro gearing?

As usual I want it all - a rock crawler 1st gear with highway cruising 5th. I don't know what engine it was used with, but according to EKTA there was a CRU trans has a 4.235 final drive - a real stump puller in 1st gear, but top speed would suffer!

I put together this chart to help me put it in perspective. (If anyone would like a copy of the spreadsheet PM me and I'll email it to you.) It looks like to have all around driveable car I either have to stick with the TDI gears or else I find something like a .610 5th gear to work with the Syncro gears...

 

[gruppe_a]

I think the highest 5th gear is a .65

Let me check my notes at home, I've assembled a syncro 02C trans along the lines of what you're shooting for... It's not tested yet, though!

 

[MrDave]

I was going to say you need to check your numbers.
The final drive on a B4 Passat TDI should be 3.16, not 3.9.
Should be a CTN or CHU tranny.

Kermatdi.com has a 0.658 5th gear.

If you're so keen on having a crawler gear and a highway gear, why not look at the gearset from the mk4 TDI trannies? I think it's a 3.4 final,
and then run the 0.658 5th?

-Dave

 

[queek]

Here's a corrected table...

Dave, Thanks for the info. I am glad you posted this as I was not keen on scouring every "gears and shafts" page in EKTA for the available ratios. What years did they make the mk4 and did all years have these ratios?

 

[BleachedBora]

It's actually a .658.

Sweet project, I think most of us would love to have something like this in our cars!
-BB

 

[gruppe_a]

You guys aren't talking about swapping gearsets from an 02M trans into an 02C are you? I was under the impression that would not work... 02A, 02J, 02C are all in the same family, but 02M's are a different animal.

 

[queek]

You guys aren't talking about swapping gearsets from an 02M trans into an 02C are you? I was under the impression that would not work... 02A, 02J, 02C are all in the same family, but 02M's are a different animal.

Without a doubt! Do you know which models/years had these transmissions? Or has someone already put together a chart of all the available gear ratios for this family?

 

[gruppe_a]

TDI syncro

No, I don't think I've ever seen a full-on chart for all the ratios available everywhere... sure would be nice though! I've only researched enough to be 90% sure that the highest 5th is .658, the lowest 1st is 3.778, and the lowest R&P is 4.235...

IIRC G60ing on here has a ton of knowledge on ratios for these trannys. I think I also found a bunch of info over on the 'tex in the manual trans forum using the search multi8ple times!

 

[MrDave]

About VW transmissions:

02A is the cable-shift gearbox, 5speed, introduced in the B3 passat and corrado. Was in the mk3 Golf/jetta attached to the VR6 and TDI. Also used in the B4 Passat.

02C is the syncro version of the 02A gearbox. Everything is identical to the 02A, but the differential is different. 02A gearset and ring and pinion from 02A can be used in 02C. In North America, the 02C was only used in the G60 Syncro Passat, which was only available in Canada.

02J is the mk4 version of the 02A. Gearset and R&P is the same as the 02A, differences lie in the case mainly.

02M is the 6spd tranny, first used in the Audi TT, later used in the mk4's.
Available as an AWD or 2WD version, also available as a 5spd. Shares no parts in common with the 02A/02C/O2J.

There are some other differences in the 02A/02J family regarding the hubs and the diff, but that won't make a difference since you'll be using the 02C diff.

Mk4 is the body designation for the Golf/Jetta from midyear '99 thru to 2006? The New Beetle and the 1st gen Audi TT are also mk4.


The mk4 O2J TDI tranny came in 3 forms:
EUH - attached to the BEW engine in the Golf/Jetta
EGR - ALH
EGS - BEW in the New Beetle.

For other TDI transmissions:
CHA - AAZ from B3/B4 passat (canadian only 1.9 TD)
CHU - 1Z engine in B4 passat
CTN - 1Z engine in B4 passat
CTN - AHU from A3 Jetta


You can probably find summary tables of the gear ratios on the web somewhere if you look.


That's too much typing for tonight. Best of luck finding your info.

-Dave

 

[mogly]

Any updates for us Queek?

 

[queek]

It's been a busy month with the holidays, a new job and a temporary project spending freeze. (Hey can't I get a govenrment bail-out too?) But as the dust settles I have been focusing on cost free tasks... the turbo oil return line which came together with the help of contractor friend who had lots of left over 1/2 stainless tubing and a tubing bender.

Time to replace those crusty turbo clamps...not beautiful but funtional - they'll need some kind of plating to take the heat!

Nothing like having the right tools!

Still room for the future down-pipe!

Final tightening the swagelok fittings is going to have to be done before I put the assembly on. I disassembled the turbo to clean it up. The internals look like new, but now that I've removed the compressor wheel I have lost the balancing. duh!
Does anyone know where i can buy a rebuild kit for a T-15 and/or get the "center" balanced? It's rebuild or replace with a direct replacement from Garrett for $560. Has anyone have any experience with these OEM units directly from Garrett?

 

[sinful rides]

Sweet project. I'd like to do this to my tdi this summer when I have my Mustang up and running. What car did you get the drive train from? I'm guessing its a 1.8T passat 98 and up?

 

[mogly]

I believe in his first post he mentions picking up the syncro driveline from someone in Quebec and it's from a Canadian Passat. We were offered syncros here but only in the B3.

If you're Passat is a sedan be prepared to install the propshaft tunnel in the floor pan. The wagons all came with it factory so it's an easier install procedure.

 

[GiGGer]

I just blew my transmission last thursday while driving back home...hope this won't happen to your 02C transmission like it did to me. It happens after driving on highway and on a secondary road on cruise speed and I was slowing down while approaching a village...

My mechanic will be swapping in a gasser 02C transmission and this time, i'll only swap the 5th gear to avoid any potential risk of a transmission failiure by someone swapping the entire gears from a TDI 02A...

Very cool project, I always wanted a B4 Syncro but resigned to take a B3 Syncro instead. Very nice in the snow...will you have a chance to try it this winter?

 

[TDIsyncro]

I can't agree with your assement on the 02A gears. I have run about 100,000KM on mine with absalutly no concerns. If anything, it must of been old syncros/gears from the 02A, or not installed properly. Why are you thinking the 02A gears are weaker than the 02C?

I just blew my transmission last thursday while driving back home...hope this won't happen to your 02C transmission like it did to me. It happens after driving on highway and on a secondary road on cruise speed and I was slowing down while approaching a village...

My mechanic will be swapping in a gasser 02C transmission and this time, i'll only swap the 5th gear to avoid any potential risk of a transmission failiure by someone swapping the entire gears from a TDI 02A...

Very cool project, I always wanted a B4 Syncro but resigned to take a B3 Syncro instead. Very nice in the snow...will you have a chance to try it this winter?

 

[GiGGer]

TDIsyncro : I never said the 02A gears are weaker than the 02C. I was saying that, if you open the transmission to swap all the gears, you must do it perfectly right because this can be a potential cause of trouble on the mid to long term.

My Syncro swap has been a pain since the beggining. My friend help me fix most of the issues cause by the shop who swap the car. Now that I was not frustrated anymore after driving 25 000 km, I blew the transmission. I can't confirm that it was due to the shop swapping the gears but, seeing how he achieved the swap let me think that most likely, he screwed me up, again.

So, now I am using a 02C transmission that has not been open. I will swap only a 0.658 5th gear and won't touch the rest of the gears. Of course if it would have been done correctly the first time, nothing would have broke.

 

[TDIsyncro]

TDIsyncro : I never said the 02A gears are weaker than the 02C. I was saying that, if you open the transmission to swap all the gears, you must do it perfectly right because this can be a potential cause of trouble on the mid to long term.

My Syncro swap has been a pain since the beggining. My friend help me fix most of the issues cause by the shop who swap the car. Now that I was not frustrated anymore after driving 25 000 km, I blew the transmission. I can't confirm that it was due to the shop swapping the gears but, seeing how he achieved the swap let me think that most likely, he screwed me up, again.

So, now I am using a 02C transmission that has not been open. I will swap only a 0.658 5th gear and won't touch the rest of the gears. Of course if it would have been done correctly the first time, nothing would have broke.

Thank you for clarifying that. I remeber you did have a lot of trouble with that shop and sadly, that guy must of messed up pretty much everything he did for you. I can underastand you choosing the route you are going.

 

[queek]

mogly, that is correct I got the drive train in Aylmer, Quebec. The trans was from a '92 Passat syncro. I'm not sure what the diff/suspension came out of although it is the "large bearing" unit (72mm vs 68mm) and it was from an ABS car.

GiGGer, sorry to hear about the trans! Ouch! I'll go uber anal in re-assembling mine or if I feel I can't make it perfect I will have someone like Broke VW do it.

Otherwise not much progress to report - I did get the Passat wagon its 2 year inspection before I tear into it so when it's re-assembled I'll be able to drive it on the road to shake out the problems without worrying about an expired windshield sticker. The fines in NJ are out of control!

 

[TDIsyncro]

Just checked out my speed vs. RPM on a 02A gear set (from '99TDI Jetta) in the 02C syncro. 205/55R15 tires @90%. Used GPS for actual speed, shows speedomoter error, and VCDS for exact RPM.

100kph (62mph) (GPS) = 93kph (speedometer) = 2160 RPM

108kph (67mph)(GPS) = 100kph (speedometer) = 2350 RPM

120kph (75mph)(GPS) = 110kph (speedometer) = 2560 RPM

BTW Queek, that is one sweet turbo oil return line!

 

[queek]

BTW Queek, that is one sweet turbo oil return line!

Thanks TDIsynco, now if I can just get the rest of the engine/drivetrain to look like that...
BTW you speeds vs rpm's match exactly to where I am heading...

 

[GiGGer]

I am driving again my syncro with a Gasser 02C transmission. Doing highway is crazy! 120 km/h is about 3300-3400rpm. I really need a 5th gear.

Do you guys know for sure if the 0.658 gear set will fit directly in the 02C transmission?

 

[gruppe_a]

.658

It goes right in. IIRC the only small detail was finding a smaller diameter spring washer for the small gear... I know that washer was available around the same time people were getting this gearset through a group buy...

 

[queek]

GiGGer, How is driving in the lower gears? With the TDI torque and that low FD do you even need 1st?

 

[GiGGer]

1st gear is very short. I sitll use it when starting from 0 km/h but if I do a stop without stopping completely, I stay in 2nd. It was like that before also...1st gear is about 30km/h at 4000rpm. It really feels like you drive one gear lower all the time. I can live with that but really need a taller 5th. 0.658 seems to be the tallest one, I would have prefer something even taller...

 

[queek]

Timing belts

Winter's over and it's back to fun and games...I was told by the previous owner that the timing belt has about 15k miles on it. Do these belts have tell tale signs of impending failure? Considering the shifty nature of the guy and the critical nature of this part I am inclined to replace it, but as I look closely it looks "new".

Can anyone tell by looking at the pics where this belt is in it life cycle?

 

[queek]

A new belt it is! I got some answers over in TDI101. Dumb question especially since the motor out of the car and on a stand.

 

[mogly]

Yes I agree fully. It's so much easier and it's nice to know where it "stands".

Are you intending on upgrading the engine at all?

 

[queek]

It pulled pretty strong when it was still on the road and with a badly clogged intake. I would like to put on a bigger turbo and larger injectors, but that will add big bucks and push out the completion of the project. The engine also has 235k on it and it may need a rebuild down the road at which time I will consider upgrades.

So for now it's the belts and a few other external repairs.