Glx Tdi Syncro

queek

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Well here it goes. I posted a hint of this project early in the year and now things are finally starting to happen. I have a 95 Passat GLX that I bought new in Dec ’94 that now has 153k miles on it. It is no longer my daily driver, but it has been such a reliable car that I couldn’t get rid of it and what would I get it, less than a $1,000!
So after being inspired by the likes of lug_nut, GiGGer, Tongboy and Frankencar and since I won’t be able to buy a Passat-TDI-5sp-4motion in the US for the next foreseeable millennia I decided to build the next best thing!
The consensus between TDIClub, Ottawa Vdubbin and VWVortex members is that the syncro rear drive mechanism will bolt up to the underside of a US B4 wagon with only minor mods such as welding on the brackets to support the drive shaft carrier bearings and the fuel tank supports.
So off to Quebec I went in the Volvo to visit Auto Allemagne (autoallemagne.com) in Aylmer across the river from Ottawa. After touring all the cool stuff Rune had in his shop, It took a couple of hours to load all the parts pushing the Volvo springs to their limit.

It was after dark and here I come cruising up to the border crossing with 750 lbs or rusty steel and aluminum junk in the back of a station wagon. The border crossing guard was not at all amused, but my story jived with what I told his Canadian counterpart on the way in that morning so off I went.
That rear drive is heavy! In this pic I am transferring it from one car to the GLX where I stored the stuff for the winter. I only hope that the 2WD beam axle also has some weight so as to keep my net weight gain to a minimum! The maroon car in the background is the TDI donor. While it was still drivable I was using it as a rolling test bed to get the kinks out of the engine.


Here is what makes up the rear drive. The plates on the ground attach the “wish bone” to the same mounting points as the does the 2wd axle. The beam on the ground next to the bucket bolts to the syncro frame rails. These have welded in threaded anchor nuts that I’ll have to add later.

The front and to rear drive shaft sections were rusted beyond repair so I found a rust free set on ebay.de and a seller willing to ship to the US. 20 Euros for the parts and 65 Euros ($120) to ship, but still cheaper than having them cut and re-welded.
So out comes the engine out of the donor

…off with the trans and onto the stand.

I have decided to use the G60 syncro gearing as it is very close to the TDI. 4th gear is a little different but not enough to justify tearing the whole trans apart. With the added weight and friction of the syncro drive train I am leaning towards going with the stock TDI 5th gear as much as I’d like to install a set of .681’s.

I had some screw ups along the way: In removing the TDI I kinked the high pressure power steering hose rigid section while loosening the bolt that connects it to the pump. Are the VR6 and TDI hose/pipes that different? I am hoping that I can reshape the VR to make it work unless someone out there has a usable hose they want to part with?

I want to “clean up” the turbo – when the engine was running the turbo was working fine. Maybe it's just because there is no oil pressure to float the shaft, but the shaft takes some effort to turn. The air side was very clean. The exhaust side has some carbon build-up on it, but I like to replace the oil supply and return lines: the supply is rusty and the oil return hose and its connection to the block from the turbo looks like one of those cannons they raise off the ocean floor. I am not going to touch it until I get parts pricing from VW.


Well that's it for now - Work has been all too consuming so I am at something of a stand-still for a while...I welcome your thoughts and suggestions!
 
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TDIsyncro

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Glad to see anouther Syncro TDI wagon in creation. :) Nice start to your posts.

Just to point out one thing, your spread sheet lists a 02M, but IIRC it should say 02C. I remeber debating about the usefullness of swapping the gears out with the 02A and I did end up going that route. The engine was a bit anemic for the power train until I put in the PP520's, then it was a perfect match.

Just a few maintenance itmes I would point out. There is a plastic bushing assembly pressed into the front end of the drive shaft. Just a small amount of wear in it will cause driveline vibration. I would suggest replacing it as part of your swap. Also, the angle drive output seals, especially the back one seam to weep pretty good too, after a 100K or so. The rear diff oil is a lot easier to chage before you install it. It's also a good time to replace the brake proportioning valve (if I have the name right) mounted on the "wish bone" .

How were you planning on controlling the EDL? Were you going to use a manual switch on a solenoid valve?

If you need any pics or ideas on stuff let me know.

best of luck on the project. :)
 

queek

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Thanks for the pointers. Did your fuel consumption go up with the larger injectors? I am familiar with that front bushing and I will replace it. How do you remove the rear output shaft from the right angle drive to get at the seal? Is there a Canadian version of the Bentley that recognizes the syncro model?

I was planning to use a solenoid valve operated by the transmission switch to override the free wheel mechanism in the rear diff if that's what you meant by EDL. I got the valve and the relay as part of the deal. I will need to make a wiring diagram for it - I think I saw one on vwvortex.
 

TDIsyncro

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Fuel consumption went down about 1-2mpg..heavier foot and lots more fun. I am averaging 950 to 1000km/tank with a 55 liter fill. Cruizing speed is 70mph. You might get a bit better using the higher injector pressure and VNT turbo that the ALH has. EDIT - didn't look at your engine pick close enough, looks like you have an AHU as well.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syncrog60/

If you go to this forum, Les Burt can get you squared up on syncro "how too's" I actually bought a replacement from him (with new seals installed) so I have not had the pleasure of doing that job myself yet.
Sorry, EDL might be the wrong name, but yes thats what I mean.:)
If you need hanger bearings I found impex to be the best price, and drive shaft cv's..standard 90mm IIRC work instead of the VW syncro part for 350.00/each.


queek said:
Thanks for the pointers. Did your fuel consumption go up with the larger injectors? I am familiar with that front bushing and I will replace it. How do you remove the rear output shaft from the right angle drive to get at the seal? Is there a Canadian version of the Bentley that recognizes the syncro model?

I was planning to use a solenoid valve operated by the transmission switch to override the free wheel mechanism in the rear diff if that's what you meant by EDL. I got the valve and the relay as part of the deal. I will need to make a wiring diagram for it - I think I saw one on vwvortex.
 
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TDIsyncro

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btw - you mentioned replacing your oil return line, keep in mind it will have to be modified to clear the angle drive...you may not want to waste your money on a new one.. I ended up running a high temp oil compatible hose with clamps.
 
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queek

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Heh! Funny you should bring that up - just last night I was just sizing up where the right angle bracket connects to the 4cyl block...
The right angle drive bracket...

The connection points (in yellow) on the block and the interfering hose...

I am going to have to come up with something else for the return hose which is really ok with me - I really wasn't looking forward to paying $90 for a new one at the dealer. (buy enough parts at dealer prices and in no time you could be paying cash for Jetta Sportwagon TDI! - maybe there's a method to their madness) The downpipe is also going to be pretty trick as well!
 

TDIsyncro

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yeah LOL I guess that was good timing. :) I have a bunch of pics of my down pipe I can send to you. It's not that bad to build. I did have to build a special wrench to get the rear bottom bolt where it bolts onto the turbo exhaust housing but the nice thing is that you can install it before you put the motor in. ;) I have also found it good practice to install the rubber biscuit on the angle drive prior to installing the motor. (yes I have had it in and out too many times.) Then slip the rear drive shaft up to it and hand start the 3 bolts with a high end 10mm 12pt socket and a 2 ft extension...then run them in and finish with torquing to IIRC 33ftlb's (use blue loctite on these buggers!) Also make sure it is assemblied correclty..I did it wrong twice..and it failed twice (actually the dealer did it wrong the second time. :rolleyes: ) There is 3 bosses on the rubber biscuit and three recessed surface (one at each bolt hole) on the yoke. You must orientate it so the boss fits into the recess area. The power is transmitted through that joint..not through the bolt. If it's put together wrong, the bolts will shear. You may know all this but I thought it was worth pointing out. :)
What else...the G60 Rad works really good with the AHU engine, just transfer over the lower rad hose metal tube from the G60 engine. This tube and hose will fit perfect. The upper rad hose can be made with a the AHU joined to the RAD portion of the G60. ...see more money saved! Intercooler..you can make good use of a lot of the existing hoses etc for that too. I used a 16V RAD on my first install...not a good fit having the lower rad outlet on the passenger side.
 
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queek

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You might get a bit better using the higher injector pressure and VNT turbo that the ALH has.

The engine is a 1Z.

I have been working on and off stripping the donor of its TDI specific and electrical parts. I have to get the shell out of my driveway soon. Not completely sure what I need besides the engine feed the cluster and its feed and the one relay that sits behind the temperature controls in the dash, so I'm pulling everything out marking it where ever I have disconnected a connector.
I was going to keep the front lighting harness but it had been cut so I will have to separate it from the engine feed and use the VR's.
For those who have done this swap did you leave the VR fuse block in place and just replace the VR wiring with the TDI? Gaining access to the back of that fuse block in place looks almost impossible. The same goes for replacing the gas pedal and the potentiometer...can that be done with the cluster in place???
Chaos Theory:
 

TDIsyncro

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queek said:
You might get a bit better using the higher injector pressure and VNT turbo that the ALH has.

The engine is a 1Z.
You missed the EDIT I added a few days ago - AHU/1z..more or less the same thing yes, no? Anyways, I thought you would of found the other info of more interest to discuss than correcting me on a correction I had all ready made. :confused:


queek said:
Gaining access to the back of that fuse block in place looks almost impossible. The same goes for replacing the gas pedal and the potentiometer...can that be done with the cluster in place???
it's a twisted mess but it does drop down enough to work with it. I have not done the VR6 swap. so I do not want to comment on the fuse block replacement..other than I would be surprised if the two were different. The potentiometer is easier to install than you think. There will be two holes at the top of the existing pedal box (above the brake lever) that will accept the studs of your TPS braket. You can pull the brake switch and sneak a socket up through the hole to get the nut on one, and the other nut is easier. You can just pull the pin and switch the pedals from that point..and hook up the TPS cable.
 
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queek

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My apologies TDIsyncro! I did miss your edit (late night scatter-brained posting) and I AM immensely grateful for the wealth of information you've shared.

Thanks for the link to the Yahoo groups and your info on the drive shaft particulars will come in handy - I did notice those bosses and recesses. I would like to see pics of your down pipe fab! (I'll pm you).

I think its going to be awhile before I'll be doing any installation work - I have to make room in the garage to get the wagon in and up on jacks - probably in early January after it gets its 2 year inspection sticker renewed. In the meantime I have plenty of other work to do such as engine prep, rebuilding the syncro rear suspension and moving up the electrical system learning curve!
Peter
 

tongboy

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91 Jetta TDI Swap, 97 M3 LS1 Swap
very very awesome!

i'd love to do the same, how much did the drivetrain set you back?
 

queek

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Thanks tongboy! I paid 1,100 for everything in the driveway including the new 5 lug hubs, rotors and bearings. The trans is in inexcellent shape, but I will have to spend some more on refurbishing the drivetrain (sand blasting, powder coating, bushing replacement).

There's guy right in Portland who imports this stuff from Europe. Frankencar posted his name - Jman - he's on VW Vortex:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerouser?cmd=viewprofile&id=6500

I don't remember his prices, but if they're from Europe they tend to be in less rusty than the Eastern Canadian stuff...from what I've seen.

Additionally you can learn an immense amount here...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeroforum?id=742

Is it your mk1 you're considering? Here's some motivation...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2717417&page=1
 

tongboy

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queek said:
Thanks tongboy! I paid 1,100 for everything in the driveway including the new 5 lug hubs, rotors and bearings. The trans is in inexcellent shape, but I will have to spend some more on refurbishing the drivetrain (sand blasting, powder coating, bushing replacement).

There's guy right in Portland who imports this stuff from Europe. Frankencar posted his name - Jman - he's on VW Vortex:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerouser?cmd=viewprofile&id=6500

I don't remember his prices, but if they're from Europe they tend to be in less rusty than the Eastern Canadian stuff...from what I've seen.

Additionally you can learn an immense amount here...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeroforum?id=742

Is it your mk1 you're considering? Here's some motivation...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2717417&page=1
I actually bought my brake adapters for my mk1 from him, didn't know he did syncro stuff :eek:, i'm actually considering a syncro passat wagon TDI, I like my rabbit but miss all the features of a stock car, a motor swap is easy compared to what i've done to the rabbit...

I expected a lot more then 1100, thats a very good price for everything you've got.

there is a syncro b3 passat wagon for sale up in BC i've recently found interest in, we'll see...

good luck with your swap, i'll be watching with lots of interest :D
 

queek

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small progress

Time for an update: Finally finished scavenging parts off of the donor car and got rid of the shell!
I opened up the side of the TDI trans expecting to find a shot 5th gear synchronizer. I removed the end cover and found the round wire spring from the 5th gear synchronizer hub was sitting half wrapped around the driven gear which suffered a broken tooth. I drove for 6 months presumably with this condition and surprisingly without any gear noise!
So. Does anyone have a decent original 0.717 set they'd like to part with?


Hmmm. That would explain the difficult shifting.
I also noticed that there are 3 "locking pieces" in the synchronizer hub in the '96 TDI 02A CHA compared to none in the '92 02C CBC.
Hopefully there is no difference in the gears and how they fit. I'll pull these out tomorrow and do a comparison.
Rerouting the on the oil return line, starting with the decrepit original line:

I salvaged the banjo connection and the flange...

Cleaned them up and rounded up some SS Swagelok fittings. These have a 10mm clear passageway like the original hose assy. and they'll get welded (later this week) onto the original connections and I'll run thin wall 1/2" (O.D.) tubing hugging close to the block to clear the angle drive...



These holes were conviently threaded at the factory - I guess they were thinking TDI syncro!

TDI meet Angle Drive!

This is what I love about VW interchangablility...clearance!

Hopefully more this week...
 

TDIsyncro

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The Swagelok set-up should look pretty nice.
I think I have the gear you need. I will try to take a look for it tonight if you want to PM me. ..it will remind me to email those down pipe pics too. ;)
 

GiGGer

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Woohoo another Syncro TDI :) You'll love it! I have a downpipe made for it that I will trash and make another one. It's like a big "S" and always turning and no flex in it. It's always killing the nuts at the turbo flange. Would be soo much easier to have a turbo with the exhaust part on the other side but we don't have much option.

Are you replacing the 02C gears with the TDI 02A gears? Don't put a taller 5th gear that you have in a TDI transmission, will rev too low and you'll freeze in winter since the engine does not produce a lot of heat if you drive at too low rpm.

You might need a set of ARP bolts for the transmission if you poped the rivets.

A guy just sold a TDI Syncro drivetrain in Quebec this week, I was looking at it for parts but too late, it's sold.
 

GiGGer

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TDISyncro : Did you ever replaced the rear control arm bushings on your Syncro? I found them at Volkswagen at 85$ each and there's 4 of em. I wish I could get a price that match the reality since it makes no sense at all.
 

TDIsyncro

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no I have never repaced the bushings in either one of my syncro's. Hey do you have a link to the guys add on the TDI syncro? I am still trying to settle my other one with insurance..1 year later. :mad:
 

Alcaid

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Anyone here knows how much torque the syncro driveline handles before anything breaks? Might be a problem when tuning these TDi engines ;)

Love my TDi Syncro, and I hope there will be some snow soon. :D
 

TDIsyncro

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Alcaid said:
Anyone here knows how much torque the syncro driveline handles before anything breaks? Might be a problem when tuning these TDi engines ;)

Love my TDi Syncro, and I hope there will be some snow soon. :D
I know there are guys with 1.8T applications running around 250HP (close to 250-300ft-lbs?) torque without issues. I feel comfortable up to 250-275ft-lbs for long term driveability. It's good practice to watch the angle drive so you know when seal starts leaking.
My syncro does laps around my Audi in the snow! The syncro is a much better traction system than the quattro, plus there is more ground clearance. I have actually used my syncro to pull my Audi from snow banks.:p Audi needs an LSD ($1800) in the front to compete.
 

Alcaid

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TDIsyncro said:
I know there are guys with 1.8T applications running around 250HP (close to 250-300ft-lbs?) torque without issues. I feel comfortable up to 250-275ft-lbs for long term driveability. It's good practice to watch the angle drive so you know when seal starts leaking.
My syncro does laps around my Audi in the snow! The syncro is a much better traction system than the quattro, plus there is more ground clearance. I have actually used my syncro to pull my Audi from snow banks.:p Audi needs an LSD ($1800) in the front to compete.
Bold statement that the syncro is better than your A4 quattro, wich is a permantent AWD system. I have a quattro as well (Audi Quattro - the first quattro) but haven't had the opportunity to compare them on winter conditions yet.

Wheel figures or crank?
250-275 ft.lbs crank safe-limit is not much for a TDi! :(
 

GiGGer

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250-275 ft.lbs is a safe range for Syncros. that would equal to a TDI developping 160hp or something near this and if using an AHU, this is hard to achieve.

TDISyncro : no use for the link, the car was all rusty, 2 colors, stored at the back of a garage in the grass. Absolutely not good for your insurrance.

Transmission : According to the cart on the first page, the Syncro is a 02C transmission and not a 02M.
 

Alcaid

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GiGGer said:
250-275 ft.lbs is a safe range for Syncros. that would equal to a TDI developping 160hp or something near this and if using an AHU, this is hard to achieve.
An AHU developing 160hp will have 300 ft.lbs (crank numbers) ref. Stealth TDI's car, and that's with a standard 10mm pump!
 

queek

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TDIsyncro said:
The Swagelok set-up should look pretty nice.
I think I have the gear you need. I will try to take a look for it tonight if you want to PM me. ..it will remind me to email those down pipe pics too. ;)
Thanks TDIsyncro! I appreciate the offer. If you find it let me know how much you want for it or if you have both the drive and driven I'll take both. There is no visual damage to the drive gear but I will assume it was weakend by the event that broke the tooth on the driven.

GiGGer said:
Are you replacing the 02C gears with the TDI 02A gears? Don't put a taller 5th gear that you have in a TDI transmission, will rev too low and you'll freeze in winter since the engine does not produce a lot of heat if you drive at too low rpm.
GiGGer: I am only planning on changing the 5th and maybe 4th. All the others are the same ratio or close including the final drive 3.938 vs. 3.944 (Syncro/TDI). I hope to only take 4 & 5 from the TDI and use the rest of the syncro trans parts. I split the case and the gears look in great shape.

I was going to use the original flex section from the TDI but the accordian pipe is cracked. Does anyone know where I can buy flex sections in the original diameter?

Interesting comment about the engine heat with the tall gears, reminds me of a time I almost froze to death one cold night driving into the wind (5degF) in my mk1 diesel.

Progress is picking up. I started working on the turbo and the manifolds - pics to follow Here's another look at the business end of a syncro trans:

Nice and clean - the oil was clear and free of metal particles, synchronizer gaps measure within spec:

The rear drive before (I actually tore this down some time ago.):

The electrical/vacuum-assist freewheel over-ride acuator on the back of the rear diff. This gives you AWD in reverse.

ABS equipped rear bearing housing/swing arm. This will allow me to restore the ABS, but I am curious if the EDL (GLX traction control) can be applied to all wheels or is it limited to the front. Maybe I need an M-Class for that.

The rear drive after:

Weight reduction = improved performance!:D Off to the sand blaster soon...

E-codes! My priorities are backwards - I know
 

TDIsyncro

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Alcaid said:
Bold statement that the syncro is better than your A4 quattro, wich is a permantent AWD system.
Audi owners don't like to here it. :p The syncro is better for traction in mud and snow..there is hardly a comparison. Wait till you try both in 1-2ft deep snow. The syncro will crawl through it. The Audi will move for a bit, then a front and back wheel will let go and your done. The quattro is certainly a better performance driving style of AWD..and the quattro will take way more torque and require less maintenance. With a front LSD on the quattro it would be overall a better system.
 

TDIsyncro

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My syncro gets chilly during urban driving at any temp below -25C. However, I have an EGR bypass and no coolant glow plugs.
 

GiGGer

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I did not say 160hp is impossible, but you need more than a chip and injectors. of course, crank hp is easier to achieve but for whp, like the dyno gives you, it's harder.

I didn't know the Syncro gears were near the TDI, would have saved a lot of troubles! but I enjoy my TDI gears now.

Queek : make sure the plastic pads under the engine is there for winter. It really helps for keeping the engine warm while driving at -15C and colder.

For the downpipe, good luck with it. you can see my pictures of the downpipe at http://syncrotdi.dyndns.org/Syncro/syncro3.html and yours might look like it also and, it's hard to find a place where to put the flex. Mine was made on 2.5" but if I was to do it again, I would do it on 2.25".
 

queek

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GiGGer said:
Queek : make sure the plastic pads under the engine is there for winter. It really helps for keeping the engine warm while driving at -15C and colder..
By this do you mean the plastic covering that fits snugly around the oil pan?
 

GiGGer

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queek said:
By this do you mean the plastic covering that fits snugly around the oil pan?
You might not have it on your VR6 Passat. I think only the Diesel car have that isolating pad. on my syncro, I use the one from a '93 Passat TD (under the engine, and under the hood).

This is not attached to the engine but to the body, you need to remove it for an oil change. The one under the hood is a carpet pad.
 
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