Glow plug help, pulled Bosch 0250402004 5v seems like ceramic, I have 12v ngk replacements

[smokedvw]

I've been having some rough idel and hard starts on the below freezing temperatures here in Canada . I know in my 2002 Jetta tdi 1.9l that usually meant time to replace the glow plugs.

I have a 2005 passat b5 (or 5.5) 2.0 l. The local shops were unable to find glow plugs to match the 2.0 but had ones to match the 1.9.

I finally pulled them and the part numbers do not match nor does the voltage. I'm car borsch are 5v, replacement ate 12v.

Does this mean I'm still running the old ceramic plugs? I read or warranty recalls replacing the ceramic with steel and different voltage.

This look like the proper replacement https://germanparts.ca/parts/n10591607-0250402004-genuine-oe-diesel-glow-plug/
Vs

These are what I got from lordco

https://www.ngk.com/ngk-5909-y-732j-glow-plug

Looking to understand if I should replace with ceramic again or do I need yo take it to a shop and have it switched to 12v steel and reprogrammed?

Thank you

 

[caffeine]

12V plugs were never compatible with these cars, there were 5v and 7v, multiple recalls, and to switch from one to the other, the ECU needs to be flashed. The last recall used steel sheathed ceramic plugs.

Glow plug recall cold start problems on VW TDI pumpe duse engines

VW TDI cold start problem due to glow plug recall

www.myturbodiesel.com

 

[smokedvw]

How do I know of the glow plug I pulled is steel or ceramic?

It's a Bosch code 0250402004.

Thank you

 

[caffeine]

How do I know of the glow plug I pulled is steel or ceramic?

It's a Bosch code 0250402004.

Thank you

I believe that's a first recall (middle) 5v plug. Supposedly that's the worst kind to have in terms of cold starts.

 

[smokedvw]

Yes it looks like this was the middle recall. Now VW is saying they won't do this. I guess I should have got it done 10 years ago

Glow plug recall cold start problems on VW TDI pumpe duse engines

VW TDI cold start problem due to glow plug recall

www.myturbodiesel.com

Sounds like my local shop can't swap it either vs the dealership :

 

[caffeine]

Yes it looks like this was the middle recall. Now VW is saying they won't do this. I guess I should have got it done 10 years ago

Glow plug recall cold start problems on VW TDI pumpe duse engines

VW TDI cold start problem due to glow plug recall

www.myturbodiesel.com

Sounds like my local shop can't swap it either vs the dealership :

A tuner should be able to flash the ECU with the updated calibration as an alternative.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I don't believe Bosch makes glow plugs for your car. They may have in the past, but I don't see them as available now, just Beru and NGK. Correct OE PN for the 5v plugs is N10591607, for the 7v it's N10591609. Neither of these is ceramic.

 

[caffeine]

I don't believe Bosch makes glow plugs for your car. They may have in the past, but I don't see them as available now, just Beru and NGK. Correct OE PN for the 5v plugs is N10591607, for the 7v it's N10591609. Neither of these is ceramic.

The final recall 7V ones are steel-sheathed ceramic plugs (n10591609). The original ceramic and first recall steel plugs were originally made by Bosch.

 

[oilhammer]

Both Bosch and NGK currently have 7v plugs available. The Bosch 5v ones seemed to come and go in availability, I still have a pile of those since the last time they were hard to get.

The software doesn't care the brand so long as the are all the same and the voltage is correct. So, if you still have the original software and the original Bosch 7v plugs, you can swap to the NGK 7v and it will work just fine. If you have the 5v ones and the software has been changed, and you are not having any cold start issues, you can just keep using those provided you can find them.

My BHW (which never had an issue originally) got switched to the 5v when I had RC1 installed. Mine has no cold start issues, and it has been this way now for much longer than it was originally. I'm at almost 19 years old and 260k miles. I changed at 80k and probably somewhere around 2007 or so.

The 7v ceramic NGK plugs: 9810 or CZ104 (that's the NGK number).

The 7v Bosch Duraterm plugs: 0 250 603 021 (Bosch long number).

The VAG numbers seem to change, N-105-916-08 is what is listed on both of the above numbers which I know is not correct for both.

I have them all here, I just replace them with whatever I take out.

 

[zzdiesel]

I am curious how the computer physically changes the voltage.

 

[caffeine]

I am curious how the computer physically changes the voltage.

I believe it uses pulse width modulation to regulate the voltage to the glow plug controller

 

[oilhammer]

Yep, the Germans call it "palpitation". So, 14v duty cycled at 50% gives you 7v. They started doing this on the later ALHs, too (the 2002-3 with the 4-channel glow system), and that's why they had to move the glow control relay out of the interior, as it would be too noisy they said. The through 2001 cars have it down inside, and you can audibly hear it CLICK on and off as the afterglow cycles past the 2500 RPM threshold. But the later cars are duty cycled, and the ALHs duty cycle it much higher (their plugs are 11v). The EGR and VNT control solenoids work the same way.

The newer cars do the same thing with lights, the tails are duty cycled at 25% but they ramp it up to 100% for brake or turn. Same wires, same bulb, same filament. Things like active suspension, ABS valve actuation, and more recently the CR injectors (both piezo and solenoid) are all examples of this. Some HVAC motors and cooling fans are also controlled this way. Otherwise, you'd have to have the old fashioned way of bleeding off voltage somewhere, which was usually done through some sort of resistor, which means heat. Not very efficient, and you can only vary the voltage then by how many resistors you want to have.

 

[zzdiesel]

So would I be understanding that to get 7 volts at the glow plug they would actually get 12 volts but only for 7/12ths of the time.

 

[oilhammer]

However the math works out. Static nominal battery voltage is 12.6 (six cells, 2.1v each). It will drop some with a load, maybe 12.2-3 or so with the key on and the preglow happening, then drop to 10.5 during cranking (which is why there is no glow happening then, and some form of load reduction relay during this time), then once the engine is running and the alternator is fielded and being regulated, closer to 14v (can be a bit higher most of the time). It is the glow control unit (aka "relay") to vary that duty cycle to what the ECU wants. If you open up the later style glow controller, you'll see there is a little circuit board inside, they are not simply a dumb ON/OFF relay. They also sense the current to each individual circuit, and that;s how fault detection happens.

First hit on google for some reading if you'd like to learn more:

Pulse Width Modulation (PWM): What Is It? How Can I Use It?

What is pulse width modulation (PWM) and how to can it be used effectively in many applications?

www.digikey.com

.

 

[smokedvw]

I don't believe Bosch makes glow plugs for your car. They may have in the past, but I don't see them as available now, just Beru and NGK. Correct OE PN for the 5v plugs is N10591607, for the 7v it's N10591609. Neither of these is ceramic.

Does anyone know the ngk part number for the 5v? I've called lordco and nappa auto parts and neither can find them.

Can I reprogram it myself if I pay for vagcom cable from Ross tech? I used to have the full software but lost it on a old old laptop.

 

[smokedvw]

has no cold start issues, and it has been this way now for much longer than it was originally.

Well I didn't have issues until we are now below freezing but this is the same as you. Swapped around 70 or 80k km for 5v recall. Now at 270k and I just think the glow plugs are giving out. I now get a emmisions workshop message and check engine light now after reinstalling the one I pulled. It also has one day on the highway it switched to emissions workshop before it was pulled.

Do you have a model number on a ngk 5v? I can only find beru on Canada to order online vs ngk locally.

 

[caffeine]

Well I didn't have issues until we are now below freezing but this is the same as you. Swapped around 70 or 80k km for 5v recall. Now at 270k and I just think the glow plugs are giving out. I now get a emmisions workshop message and check engine light now after reinstalling the one I pulled. It also has one day on the highway it switched to emissions workshop before it was pulled.

Do you have a model number on a ngk 5v? I can only find beru on Canada to order online vs ngk locally.

I think GermanOEM has them and is Canadian based. They might even be in the lower mainland. No you cannot switch from one to the other with VCDS, as it's not a matter of changing the coding, the ECU has to be flashed with a different calibration. If you can get a used ECU with a different calibration and it's SKC code, you could use VCDS to pair it to your keys and cluster.

 

[smokedvw]

Yes I saw the beru glow plugs on there and think I'll order them. I just wonder will I run into cold start problems or if my engine never has issues with 5v I'll be ok?

It's the first time in 10+ years it's really run rough in the cold but I think it's just the plugs.

Also anyone know the foot pounds torque to tighten the glow plugs up to

Thank you

 

[zzdiesel]

However the math works out. Static nominal battery voltage is 12.6 (six cells, 2.1v each). It will drop some with a load, maybe 12.2-3 or so with the key on and the preglow happening, then drop to 10.5 during cranking (which is why there is no glow happening then, and some form of load reduction relay during this time), then once the engine is running and the alternator is fielded and being regulated, closer to 14v (can be a bit higher most of the time). It is the glow control unit (aka "relay") to vary that duty cycle to what the ECU wants. If you open up the later style glow controller, you'll see there is a little circuit board inside, they are not simply a dumb ON/OFF relay. They also sense the current to each individual circuit, and that;s how fault detection happens.

First hit on google for some reading if you'd like to learn more:

Pulse Width Modulation (PWM): What Is It? How Can I Use It?

What is pulse width modulation (PWM) and how to can it be used effectively in many applications?

www.digikey.com

.

thanks for the explanation Oil Hammer.

 

[smokedvw]

Replaced all 4 today with the 5v Beru plugs, started great vs clunky before but I still have the engine workshop. I'll post a new thread about that.

 

[caffeine]

Replaced all 4 today with the 5v Beru plugs, started great vs clunky before but I still have the engine workshop. I'll post a new thread about that.

If it's still got a glow plug code, it could be one of the connectors going to the glow plugs

 

[smokedvw]

If it's still got a glow plug code, it could be one of the connectors going to the glow plugs

It's not see the following for full info https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.ph...-emissions-workshop-p1592-p0238-p0113.527015/