Getting a "fix" for the fix

DanB36

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I said July 2015 for the title..... in my example. I didn't say when the buyer would have bought the car from the dealer. I did miss this, but I also implied it was after September 2015.
In that case, and if the dealer were considered a junkyard or salvage yard, yes, the car would not be "operable", and wouldn't be eligible for the buyback. But if it had been sold in August 2015, it would be. Or if the title were branded in October 2015, the car went to a junkyard, and then someone bought and fixed it, it would then be eligible.
 

Janimal444

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I am far from an expert on TDI tuning, and have not looked into it much seeing that my car is still under warranty. That being said, could you not just use the Flashzilla device and store your stock ECU tune, and flash the ECU back to stock when/if necessary?

I would think that the fix for the Gen 3 vehicles would be just a simple ECU reflash. I highly doubt that VW is going to “lock” the ECU to prevent people from “scamming” money from them. At this point they are just trying to meet the buyback/fix quota mandated by the feds. I doubt they care what anyone does with the vehicle afterwards. If anything, a tuned vehicle would be just another reason for them to not have to warranty a failure on a HPFP or DPF.
 

turbobrick240

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I am far from an expert on TDI tuning, and have not looked into it much seeing that my car is still under warranty. That being said, could you not just use the Flashzilla device and store your stock ECU tune, and flash the ECU back to stock when/if necessary?
I would think that the fix for the Gen 3 vehicles would be just a simple ECU reflash. I highly doubt that VW is going to “lock” the ECU to prevent people from “scamming” money from them. At this point they are just trying to meet the buyback/fix quota mandated by the feds. I doubt they care what anyone does with the vehicle afterwards. If anything, a tuned vehicle would be just another reason for them to not have to warranty a failure on a HPFP or DPF.

That is exactly right. VW doesn't care what we do after the fix. If anything they'd like the opportunity to deny warranty claims. It's ridiculous that some want to imply that tuning after a fix is a morally objectionable decision.
 

FVWVWF

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... tuning after a fix is a morally objectionable decision.
There is tuning...and there is un-doing the fix. I consider those two separate things.
So tell me....why are you suing VW? Not starting a fight, just having a convo. :)
 

turbobrick240

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There is tuning...and there is un-doing the fix. I consider those two seperate things.
So tell me....why are you suing VW? Not starting a fight, just having a con. . :)
I'm not suing anyone. In all likelihood, I won't be getting the fix or the buyback. I just don't have any problem w people taking the fix compensation and later tuning their vehicles. Their money, their car, their decision. That simple.
 

FVWVWF

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I'm not suing anyone.
Thats the thing.....you are, unless you opt out.

All those lawyers who are battling it out with VW's lawyers are doing it on your behalf. You are automatically part of the lawsuit as a TDI owner unless you specifically sign somewhere that you want no part in it. These lawyers are not doing it for the trees....trees dont need money.
Hence the entire conversation about morality....how can a person sue someone for missing a part...making them put that part on.....only to remove it later because of free dollars.
 

gcodori

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Hey guys - I started this post a few days ago. Boy, did things escalate quickly!

I made this post not to debate the morals of tuning.

I made this post not to debate the ethics of what VW did.

I made this post to talk about the technical wording in the agreement made between VW and the EPA that would allow for increased OBD scanning in terms of the TDIs.

I fear that the EPA will try to keep VW honest by scanning things like DEF usage, fuel delivery and other things to ensure there is no further "cheat" installed.

I'm concerned about this because anyone who gets a tune may have parameters that go outside of stock when this OBD scanning happens. This has the unintentional outcome of catching tunes.

I mentioned in the OP that tuning is not for everyone. I also mentioned that many states don't even test.

My hope is that someone does the same reverse engineering to a fixed ECU that they did with the cheat - that presentation on how the cheat worked, etc. The cheat data and presentation is at https://lwn.net/Articles/670488/

Please do not let this become another political/moral/religious/etc forum post that will get closed by the mods. I'm hoping for some good technical data to come in the future if the fix ever happens. Please keep things classy guys (and gals).

PS - I will not tune my car until:
1 - the fix has been properly diagnosed and a tune is created
2 - the warranty is expired (I never planned to tune until this happened anyway - now it just got pushed out further to 120,000)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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People have been getting wound up about the ecological impact of tuned cars for as long as there have been TDIs. Dieselgate brings nothing new to the discussion. Either you condone it or you don't.

A poorly running car of any type will pollute more. Cars with bad fuel will pollute more. Cars with failing emissions systems pollute more. Some argue that a perfectly maintained car with a tune will pollute less overall than one that only receives average maintenance. Not sure I agree, but that's one point of view.

I've always been puzzled by how a car that gets 50 MPG with a tune can pollute more than an SUV that gets 15. But some say it does.

For me, 3 million miles of air travel in my prior career shot my personal carbon footprint all to hell. So I don't worry about it at all.
 

LOUDERMAN

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Neither will you. VW's settlement states the fix will be provided for free, yet to ensure VW gets to "fix" as many cars as possible, they are holding that restitution money as ransom until you bring the car in to get it "fixed". Btw the fix allegedly still may not meet original EPA requirements. Not relavant.
If someone wants to delete the emissions system and potentially violate federal/state laws after the "fix", it's their choice, just like it was before the scandal broke. That can be viewed as not moral.
The owner restitution money is due to anyone who owns a '09+ TDI. Yes, tuned TDIs lost value as well, so why chastise the OP for trying to get their fair share? They had to buy the car before getting it tuned.
Now if you want to debate whether tuning is not moral, that's great, but the OP is in possesion of an elligble vehicle. Whether you like it or not, they are due compensation per the agreement VW has proposed with the government.
Hit the nail on the head. VW is putting the money out there because they have a target number of cars to be repaired or they face additional fines.

The EPA will throw a hissy-fit if they find out ANY car has been tuned and pollutes more than the set limits. VW gives zero ****s if you have the car tuned afterwards, they just want to fix your car so they don't have to pay more fines. The WHOLE point of holding the compensation hostage is so they can fix your car and get out of the hole they've dug for themselves.

If anyone wants to get a tune after they get the car repaired, go for it. Its no different from buying a new Subaru WRX and doing the EXACT same thing.

Personally, I'm having second thoughts on selling it back. Just went for a drive and I'll be damned if I'm ever that happy in another hatchback that gets 40+MPG.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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The EPA will throw a hissy-fit if they find out ANY car has been tuned and pollutes more than the set limits.
Bold is mine. EPA won't find out. Lets be honest, the EPA didn't know about the cheat for six years until a third party pointed it out. No way states will be able to detect anything different about repaired cars.
 

LOUDERMAN

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Exactly. If the EPA never caught wind of this situation we'd all still be stoked about a 3000lb hatchback/wagon that can haul a 2000lb trailer cross-country, hardly ever need to downshift on small hills, and net 30MPG doing it.

FWIW people shouldn't be worried about having a car tuned, I'm not! Just accept the risks of a tuned vehicle and know your states emissions laws.

Back on topic... I'm 100% certain that the EPA will test the VW fix for the CR engines to death. And they'll probably do so using non standard methods eg. real-world testing like how all this was discovered in the first place.

And also, I really don't see the EPA MANDATING extra tests for a specific vehicle, from a specific set of production years, with a specific engine... They'll test the repairs to the emissions systems on each generation of the affected cars and make sure they pass. They'll probably do some follow up tests down the road just to make sure it holds up. But it still falls to each states emissions testing.

From my experience in AZ, I'll roll my car into emissions...

They'll say it failed...
I'll point at the opacity sensor that fell off the tailpipe...
They'll run the test again...
And it'll pass... (We have LAUGHABLE emissions down here)
 

Bisoned

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You just said this


PS - I will not tune my car until:
1 - the fix has been properly diagnosed and a tune is created
2 - the warranty is expired (I never planned to tune until this happened anyway - now it just got pushed out further to 120,000)

why did you say this in your OP??

I wanted to start a discussion about those of us who want to take the fix, get the payment and then reverse the fix.

What am I missing?
 

autdi

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For me, 3 million miles of air travel in my prior career shot my personal carbon footprint all to hell. So I don't worry about it at all.
On a per seat mile basis, jets are remarkably efficient. 744 is somewhere in the 75-80MPG/person range.

Now if you were flying something with a few hundred less seats, and made a lot more noise, yeah, your MPG is in the toilet.
 

LOUDERMAN

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You just said this





why did you say this in your OP??

I wanted to start a discussion about those of us who want to take the fix, get the payment and then reverse the fix.

What am I missing?
That's about 20% of the people keeping their cars by my guess. Either way Indigo said it best. The EPA/state emissions yahoos are just as likely to catch you as they were before. Tuners will come up with something, they always do. I wouldn't worry about it. Just get the fix, drive it for a few months and wait for Malone or KermaTDI to do their thing.
 
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gcodori

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You just said this





why did you say this in your OP??

I wanted to start a discussion about those of us who want to take the fix, get the payment and then reverse the fix.

What am I missing?
You're missing the concept of CONTEXT.

While I did mention the sentence referenced above - I talked A LOT MORE about the technical aspect of what the EPA may be looking for in additional OBD scanning baked into the agreement.

This is why I followed up with my new post clearing up the topic even more.

I understand your mind is already made up about this, so maybe you should take a break from this topic. No amount of arguing will change your mind, so hopefully I have attempted to get this topic back on track...
 

dropnosky

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The fix from VW is free.

The money you receive from VW is restitution for VW screwing you.

Unfortunately, they've linked your victim compensation to you agreeing to have the fix installed. However, the two are completely separate things. Which is why the settlement terms specifically call your payment "restitution" and the they also specifically state the fix is provided at no cost to you (free).

The agreement doesn't state that you cannot reverse or remove VW's free fix.

Everyone has different ethics and morals, there is no universal set of ethics and morals that we have to adhere to. If you want to get a fix for VW fix, you shouldn't feel bad about it and you're not doing anything wrong. You should view the fix as VW returning the car to an legal OEM state, as you would/should have purchased originally. And as such, if you didn't find the original performance to your liking, you can opt for the tune to improve the performance to your liking.
How did VW screw you? By commiting emissions fraud. If they screwed you by committing this emissions fraud and are forced to pay damages for loss of value plus pain and suffering, how is it possible that you committing the same emissions fraud a little later in the same way on the same car is no big deal? The crime did not change, only the parties committing it.

If thats the case and changing back to how it ran originally is no problem, did they really screw you? Or is it convenient to say that because money is going to end up in your pocket?

This is the definition of a double standard. Some of the arguments on this subject can be based in a number of posters ranting left and right about VWs crime all over this forum and the unfairness of proposed settlements, then as soon as the shoe is on the other foot, its magically called tuning your car and whats the problem.

That in a nutshell is what is wrong with this entire scandal.

The hypocrisy of VW. The hypocrisy of the EPAs plans to do more damage to the environement in destroying cars than good they do getting them off the road. The hypocrisy of owners who scream bloody murder at the very difficult to quantify damage done to them while planning to do the same thing.
 
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Bisoned

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How did VW screw you? By commiting emissions fraud. If they screwed you by committing this emissions fraud and are forced to pay damages for loss of value plus pain and suffering, how is it possible that you committing the same emissions fraud a little later in the same way on the same car is no big deal? The crime did not change, only the parties committing it.

If thats the case and changing back to how it ran originally is no problem, did they really screw you? Or is it convenient to say that because money is going to end up in your pocket?

This is the definition of a double standard. Some of the arguments on this subject can be based in a number of posters ranting left and right about VWs crime all over this forum and the unfairness of proposed settlements, then as soon as the shoe is on the other foot, its magically called tuning your car and whats the problem.

That in a nutshell is what is wrong with this entire scandal.

The hypocrisy of VW. The hypocrisy of the EPAs plans to do more damage to the environement in destroying cars than good they do getting them off the road. The hypocrisy of owners who scream bloody murder at the very difficult to quantify damage done to them while planning to do the same thing.

Bingo..... Can't have it both ways. Operative word here is screwed LOL
 

sriracha

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As long as 12 mpg Ford F350 monster trucks and Hellcats are allowed to legally exist on the roads, as granted by regulators, I see nothing immoral about tuning a 44 mpg TDI passenger vehicle.

The regulations are immoral.

Just because some super-dad and soccer mom popped out 5 kids and own a bunch of motobikes and jet skis, they get to excessively haul their tribe around in F350 with a trailer every weekend. I see this all the time... That is truely immoral.
 

Bisoned

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As long as 12 mpg Ford F350 monster trucks and Hellcats are allowed to legally exist on the roads, as granted by regulators, I see nothing immoral about tuning a 44 mpg TDI passenger vehicle.

The regulations are immoral.

Just because some super-dad and soccer mom popped out 5 kids and own a bunch of motobikes and jet skis, they get to excessively haul their tribe around in F350 with a trailer every weekend. I see this all the time... That is truely immoral.
To the best of my knowledge Ford did not misrepresent their emissions, nor did Chrysler.

Call the EPA and CARB immoral all you want. If they weren't doing their jobs, LA would still be living with suffocating smog.

VW represented the cars to be something they are not. They profited handsomely from both the EPA, and from the buying public.

There is no way you can win the morality argument here.... sorry
 

tadawson

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Actually, I think he already did . . . you just missed it. And the EPA could be doing 50% of what it is doing, the TDI would still be legal, and LA would still be clean. I don't understand how some just can't compehend that the EPA is *NOT* a binary decision! There is no regulation, reasonable and proper regulation, and excessive regulation that shows negligible gain over #2 . . . we are clearly in the 'excessive' bin at this time, and are suggesting that bin #2 would be far more sane, but yet some folks just don't have what it takes to comprehend that, and think the call is for zero regulation. That's never been the case, sorry . . .
 

Bisoned

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Actually, I think he already did . . . you just missed it. And the EPA could be doing 50% of what it is doing, the TDI would still be legal, and LA would still be clean. I don't understand how some just can't compehend that the EPA is *NOT* a binary decision! There is no regulation, reasonable and proper regulation, and excessive regulation that shows negligible gain over #2 . . . we are clearly in the 'excessive' bin at this time, and are suggesting that bin #2 would be far more sane, but yet some folks just don't have what it takes to comprehend that, and think the call is for zero regulation. That's never been the case, sorry . . .


The morality argument is they lied. and there are $14Billion to support this. You lose and on a very large scale.

It would be one thing if they were not touting the green aspect of their "technology". They lied, covered it up, and continued the lie for years and years....

Simple question for you. Is lying moral?
 

LOUDERMAN

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Shout out to the mods. Lets keep this under control guys. There are some aspects of this thread I'd like to continue reading. The bickering and morality, one way or the other, isn't one of them...
 

stoner-tdi

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i don't think they will add extra sensors and look for other stuff.. the cost to do that for one car would not out way the costs.



i see nothing wrong with taking the money and removing the stuff as long as you return it to the way it was when you sell it.. How is it lying if you get your car fixed and take the money and remove it later? if you don't like it don't use it..

didn't you ever get that extra quarter back in the change and didn't say anything? was that moral.. same thing... who cares mind your own business..
 

turbobrick240

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Yeah, I think the last thing we need are morality lectures from an insult hurling troll. You know who you are bloated bovine.
 

GoFaster

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i don't think they will add extra sensors and look for other stuff.. the cost to do that for one car would not out way the costs.
For the Gen 2 and Gen 3 vehicles with SCR, they are under orders for the "fix" to detect improper/inadequate DEF/AdBlue composition (i.e. they have to detect if someone fills the DEF tank with water instead of DEF/AdBlue).

It really doesn't matter what it costs at this point. The alternative is to flatten the car.
 

tadawson

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The morality argument is they lied. and there are $14Billion to support this. You lose and on a very large scale.

It would be one thing if they were not touting the green aspect of their "technology". They lied, covered it up, and continued the lie for years and years....

Simple question for you. Is lying moral?
Is selling a car that is orders of magnitude cleaner than the spec on all but one emission really not meeting the claim? My TDI is still cleaner than damn near anything out there . . . and they didn't lie to me, they lied to the EPA . . .

And some politicians think lying is totally moral . . . me, not so much . . . but again, I don't feel lied to, since the overall 'clean' claim is still totally valid.
 
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dropnosky

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Is selling a car that is orders of magnitude cleaner than the spec on all but one emission really not meeting the claim? My TDI is still cleaner than damn near anything out there . . . and they didn't lie to me, they lied to the EPA . . .

And some politicians think lying is totally moral . . . me, not so much . . . but again, I don't feel lied to, since the overall 'clean' claim is still totally valid.
The settlement before the court would disagree in that they lied to both you and the EPA.

I happen to agree with you on personal impact towards me by this scandal, but they are being punished for lying to all of us. The difference in opinion on what we are owed in restitution for this lie is vast.

Personally i find such a dramatic buyback offer and large fix payment an unprecedented deal for owners that is hard to match even with punishments metered out for safety issues that have killed numerous people in the past. This is a new door that has opened.
 
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