Gettin Readiness monitors to complete

[Cougar281]

I just replaced parts on my wife's TDI and am trying to get all the monitors to complete so it can be inspected. I'm down to 'Catalyst Monitor', 'Heated Catalyst Monitor' and 'Oxygen Sensor Monitor' (Which near as I can tell are actually 'NMHC catalyst Monitor', 'NOx/SCR Aftertreatment Monitor' and 'Exhaust Gas Sensor Monitor', respectively).

I've been reading around and I've found conflicting things such as one place saying all consumers (A/C, seated seats, rear defogger, etc) should be on, and other thing saying they should be off, and the drive procedure that I've found is downright impossible. There isn't a road in existence that I know of that you can cruise at 60MPH and then coast down to zero without using your brakes. You'd need a circle track that would allow you to stay at 60MPH non-stop to accomplish that... The procedures are so insane I can't see how they could EVER complete just by driving it. Who the heck comes up with these procedures to get them to complete? I'd be happy to get two of the remaining three to complete as that will pass inspection.

Any tips on getting them to compete?

 

[Diesl]

From what I remember some of the flags require two cold starts to reset. Could be different for a diesel though; my problems were with a gasoline powered car.

 

[meerschm]

If everything is working properly, drive the car until the car decides it is time for a DPF active regeneration and let it complete the regeneration cycle.

may take a couple hundred miles or more.

 

[Cougar281]

Well, we have been driving it as much as possible, but with being away for the last two and a half weeks, it hasn't gotten much more during that time, so I'm still at three monitors not completing. But I might have a new issue again... Today, I noticed a P0401 got set in pending DTCs.... Is it possible that a new filter plugged enough to set a 0401 in less than 1000 miles, or is there something else that could be contributing to the code? I've read it can be the exhaust flapper, but I checked that and it seems to move fine (I can rotate it and it snaps back to full open, so it's not corroded stuck).

 

[meerschm]

ouch.

do you have a VCDS, and which parts did you change out?

is your tail pipe sooty?

 

[Cougar281]

Yes, I have VCDS, and I only changed out the EGR filter.

The tailpipe is sooty, as is the old filter, but the car was diagnosed as having a cracked DPF about 35k miles ago (while it was still under emissions warranty), so that would be at least part of the soot in the tailpipe... The DPF was supposedly replaced, but I wonder if Bommarito just replaced the filter... With the soot in the old filter, I suspect the DPF has been cracked for a while, prior to the turbo failure. I don't think it would get that coated that fast as it was coated when I took it out to replace the turbo.

 

[meerschm]

I am loosing track (loosing is the wrong tense.)

DPF cracked and replaced?

Turbo failure?

LP EGR filter replaced?

which happened when?

Have you considered going across town to see oilhammer?


The only other thing I have is to suggest running basic settings tests and see if they tell you anything.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4895896&postcount=64

Matt posted a couple check sheets which might help.

 

[compu_85]

What year / model TDI is this?

-J

 

[oilhammer]

Ah, good ol' Bommarito.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Cougar you should fill out yur car info so people know what you have. It says "None yet".

 

[Cougar281]

Ah, good ol' Bommarito.

LOL yeah, I'll NEVER deal with them EVER AGAIN (ANY Bommarito dealership)... Won't even buy a bolt from them. Not because of the VW, but because of the treatment I got from them with my CTS that I bought from them. I'll go out of my way to go to Dean Team for VW and Elco for Cadillac. But I digress.

It's a 2010 and the timeline is we started getting a P0401 1.5-2 years ago when the car was around 70k and still under emissions warranty. the diagnosis was cracked DPF. They said they would cover the DPF but not the EGR filter, which we fought and won based on the EGR filter being part of the emissions system (they said they'd cover it all). The turbo failure was at about 103k back in the February-April time (I don't recall exactly when). Got it all back together and then after a few weeks got a P0401. When I removed the filter to replace it the first weekend or so in July, I tried blowing through it and yup, plugged. Put the new filter on and have been trying to get the monitors to compete.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's much Oilhammer can do that I haven't already done... Maybe someone in the area has a good DPF and EGR filter I could 'rent'? I'm not sinking a ton more money into this car until the 'dieselgate stuff is hammered out, but my wife needs to be able to get to work...

Edit: the pending p0401 seems to have gone away, so we will see... but other than that, these last three monitors are killing me...

 

[Matt-98AHU]

How to set commonrail readiness monitors

I would be smug and say "you're welcome." But the information found in this tech tip bulletin will probably just give you a headache... In which case, I'm sorry

 

[meerschm]

I have limited experience, but last fall I reset the engine codes and went for a drive.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4908519&postcount=83

and logged as the readiness codes cleared.

the catalyst monitor was the last one to set, at the end of a DPF regeneration.

the other monitors were cleared much quicker.

could it be that one or more of the temperature monitors referenced in the TSB that Matt provided is not working as it should? (either bad sensor, not installed properly, wrong sensor in the wrong place. just thinking out loud here...)

are there any other error codes on the engine controller?

have you logged or recorded the exhaust temps, and do they look reasonable?

It might be worth a conversation or even a visit to oilhammer. hands-on examination by a qualified, experienced person sometimes makes all the difference. sometimes paid advice is cheaper than free advice.

 

[oilhammer]

What is always strange to me is that some VAG products allow a standing (meaning, not driving) readiness monitor setting, but none of the diesels seem to support this. Which sucks, because doing the standing readiness setting is a much safer and more controlled way to get the job done.

You'd think that on the VE and PD TDIs, they would for sure support that function, since those EDC systems are much less complex. And in the case of the CR, you really can't blame the DPF monitoring for the need to drive them to set, because all the other DPF-equipped diesels I am aware of allow for a standing manual regen. I've done Sprinters many times, as well as some Ram pickups and some Ford pickups.

 

[Matt-98AHU]

Yeah, I hear you on that. Newer gas engines make it really easy where you just need to run a single basic setting and it goes through the whole cycle for you.

You *can* do a standing regen on TDI DPFs, but I don't know if that helps to set readiness at all. It also seems more productive/effective/faster to do it while driving anyway.

Apparently on the newer gassers (most 07 and newer), entering security code 27971 and then running basic setting 200 will allow it to run through the readiness checks without you having to sit in the car, holding gas and brake and otherwise following the instructions in VCDS. Start the process and walk away to do something else on the next ticket.

Since I don't work on too many of those at the moment, would be interesting to know how it works out for someone like you, oilhammer

 

[SilverGhost]

If you have a P0401 coming back then I would say your DPF is crap again.

As for the cause I would suggest a test drive with VCDS MVB 003 - log it at 3000rpm. The actual and specified MAF should be very close. I'm fighting with a 2010 that has had 2 DPFs fail and is trying to eat its third. The MAF reading was 1100 mg/stroke specified and 955 mg/stroke actual. But also running basic settings on high pressure EGR found it hovering on pass/fail threshold. Waiting for customer approval, but it appears the EGR valve bolted to the intake manifold is gunked up and sticking.

Basic gist of all this is the air leaking past the sticking EGR valve is messing up the air volume readings. WHICH ARE HUGE for DPF life span. Makes me think we have another generation of TDI with gummed up EGRs wrecking our life.

Jason

 

[Cougar281]

If you have a P0401 coming back then I would say your DPF is crap again.

As for the cause I would suggest a test drive with VCDS MVB 003 - log it at 3000rpm. The actual and specified MAF should be very close. I'm fighting with a 2010 that has had 2 DPFs fail and is trying to eat its third. The MAF reading was 1100 mg/stroke specified and 955 mg/stroke actual. But also running basic settings on high pressure EGR found it hovering on pass/fail threshold. Waiting for customer approval, but it appears the EGR valve bolted to the intake manifold is gunked up and sticking.

Basic gist of all this is the air leaking past the sticking EGR valve is messing up the air volume readings. WHICH ARE HUGE for DPF life span. Makes me think we have another generation of TDI with gummed up EGRs wrecking our life.

Jason

Thanks for the tip - I'll take a look at that. I did also note that in the VW article regarding monitors not setting, they did say to ignore pending DTCs, so it's POSSIBLE that the pending P0401 that went away yesterday is nothing to be concerned about... yet. I just need to get it passed for now and worry about the rest when VW settles the whole 'Dieselgate' thing.

 

[Cougar281]

I logged the EGR values and they appear to be fine. There were areas where actual was lower than spec, but As long as the engine speed was more or less steady, the EGR values were really close. Also, knock on wood, the pending P0401 hasn't come back.

 

[SilverGhost]

No, not at steady speed. Has to be at WOT (wide open throttle) acceleration. Its the same procedure as testing turbo boost, doesn't do any good at steady speed. With VCDS you can just set up graphing and read at the correct point. In MVB its easier to freeze the values when the tach hits 3k RPM.

What the values for high pressure EGR on vs off? what about low pressure EGR? what is the diff pressure across the EGR filter? What about exhaust back pressure flap open vs closed?

Jason

 

[Matt-98AHU]

No, not at steady speed. Has to be at WOT (wide open throttle) acceleration. Its the same procedure as testing turbo boost, doesn't do any good at steady speed. With VCDS you can just set up graphing and read at the correct point. In MVB its easier to freeze the values when the tach hits 3k RPM.

What the values for high pressure EGR on vs off? what about low pressure EGR? what is the diff pressure across the EGR filter? What about exhaust back pressure flap open vs closed?

Jason

The man knows what he speaks of. There's several "basic settings" you'd have to run to get that information. It is highly useful in pin-pointing where the problem lies.

If you want a "checksheet" that spells it all out, there's one located in the link meerschm already posted.

 

[Cougar281]

Well, there are areas where the duty cycle goes to 100%, and areas where the actual and spec don't match outside of steady state, so if spec and actual can and should *always* be nearly spot on, then there is likely an issue. Here is the log file if you have the time to look at it.

 

[Cougar281]

Another monitor ('Heated catalyst monitoring') FINALLY set to passed, but before that I did some of the things previously mentioned. I may be dense, but the values I got in VCDS didn't seem to line up with the worksheet I printed... but what I got was:

003:
RPM | 1403
60 | 365-370
100 | 500-515
off | 500

067
RPM | 1403
40 | 380-385
100 | 490-495
off | 490-495

078
off | On
10 | 97-103
30.6 | 56.1
3 | 3
180c | 186c

 

[meerschm]

Your reading for BS 78 looks very close to, but below/right of the line I put on this chart.

so I would would not be surprised by P0401 errors being logged once in a while. (but a few more data points would clarify this.)

the BS-3 and BS-67, the number you are looking for is the difference between values for mg/stroke as the valves are operated. as you may have noticed, the basic settings operate these valves back and forth. to get the information on thesheets, you have to be in basic settings, choose the number, "press" the on/off/next button, and log/observe as the computer operates the valve between two commanded positions. I look at the logs in excel, and actually select about ten values or so, choosing 80% of the readings for a cycle, and average, since the values seem to bounce around a bit for me.

but it looks to me like the high pressure EGR may be borderline, (if the CBEA guidance applies to your engine) the difference between the BS-003 readings you post would be 135 mg/str (500-365=135), while the checksheet suggests greater than 160 is desired. (this is consistent with what Jason noted http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5114199&postcount=16)

BS-069 looks ok, since the difference looks to be 110 mg/str, which is greater than 100.

I might be tempted to remove and clean the high pressure EGR valve, and see if the BS-003 values get better. (might want to run the Basic settings a couple more times to verify.


does anyone reading this know where the MG/stroke numbers come from? they are probably calculated from a combination of sensor readings. and it may also be that one of these sensors are having subtle issues.

would think the MAF sensor would be involved, and rpm, but how is the EGR part calculated?

 

[Cougar281]

Your reading for BS 78 looks very close to, but below/right of the line I put on this chart.

so I would would not be surprised by P0401 errors being logged once in a while. (but a few more data points would clarify this.)

the BS-3 and BS-67, the number you are looking for is the difference between values for mg/stroke as the valves are operated. as you may have noticed, the basic settings operate these valves back and forth. to get the information on thesheets, you have to be in basic settings, choose the number, "press" the on/off/next button, and log/observe as the computer operates the valve between two commanded positions. I look at the logs in excel, and actually select about ten values or so, choosing 80% of the readings for a cycle, and average, since the values seem to bounce around a bit for me.

but it looks to me like the high pressure EGR may be borderline, (if the CBEA guidance applies to your engine) the difference between the BS-003 readings you post would be 135 mg/str (500-365=135), while the checksheet suggests greater than 160 is desired. (this is consistent with what Jason noted http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5114199&postcount=16)

BS-069 looks ok, since the difference looks to be 110 mg/str, which is greater than 100.

I might be tempted to remove and clean the high pressure EGR valve, and see if the BS-003 values get better. (might want to run the Basic settings a couple more times to verify.


does anyone reading this know where the MG/stroke numbers come from? they are probably calculated from a combination of sensor readings. and it may also be that one of these sensors are having subtle issues.

would think the MAF sensor would be involved, and rpm, but how is the EGR part calculated?

If I had to guess, I would say it gets the readings from the MAF. I would suspect that there is a formula in the code that says at 'x' RPM and 'y' boost, 'z' air should be moving through the MAF, so if the air moving through the MAF is less than 'z', then the difference would be what is coming through via EGR. Or something to that effect.

Knock on wood, since the one pending P0401 that went away, I haven't seen another show up. Hopefully it'll stay away for a while.

 

[SilverGhost]

Pretty much. Mg/stroke is volume measured by the MAF. EGR measurements are changes in volume through MAF when secondary volume source is provided.

Be careful cleaning EGR valves. Those electronic valves fail on me about half the time when I clean them. Doesn't seem to matter if they are clean mechanically or chemically.

If that is what I think it is then BS-069 is very marginal. All of the fully functional cars I have tested read about 190mg/str.

Jason