Germans want 2007 to be the Year Of The Diesel in America

rotarykid

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donDavide said:
Gettin50MPGs said:
I have no confidence the oil cartels of America will allow diesels to be advertised or sold en masse in the US markets for passenger cars.

A 10 - 30% market share of cars that get 30 mpg city would spell doom for oil profits.[/quote


Oil Cartels allowing not Diesels??? ***. Another fan of a conspiracy.

Anyone that believes that the oil companies haven't a direct influence on the low mpg junk we have been sold over the last 20 years is indeed clueless of how our auto industry works .

In Europe where there has never been massive amounts of cheap oil in the ground high mpg diesels were the only option that made since .

So you get ;

No "big oil" influence in auto production = diesel that give you high mpg transport .

"Big oil" influence in auto production = gasoline power that returns low mpg transport .
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I agree with jhintontdi, we shouldn't be bashing hybrids. Anything we do to reduce our fuel consumption should be applauded. I have a good friend with a new Prius and he's getting better than the EPA figures. He traded a Volvo Cross Country which was lucky to get 20 MPG, and his other car is a Suburban. So the Prius is a great positive move.

I've also read in more than one place that the hybrid batteries are proving to last the useful life of the car (150K)--longer than expected.

Finally, the availability of high MPG cars right now (including diesels, witness Langhorne selling them at $100 over invoice) is more of a reflection of our grasshopper-like behavior than anything else. Fuel gets into an acceptable price range and everyone goes back to their beloved SUVs. Our memories are very short: the same people will be scrambling for diesels and hybrids in the spring when fuel prices go up (and they will).
 

jhintontdi

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Tin Man said:
A very careful driving friend gets 55 mpg overall on her Honda Civic hybrid.

I wonder if your 65 mpg figure comes AFTER the battery is charged up and has not had a chance to recharge.:confused: This is my uninformed explanation for the bogus EPA numbers.

TM
I didn't say I get 65 mpg, I said I get around 60 in the city. My best city only mileage has been 64, currently my average on this tank is 59 mpg. The Prius is rated at 60 city / 51 mpg highway.

I'm also not starting with a full battery and ending with a dead battery. I live in a subdivision on a hilll that has a 1/2 mile 17 degree entrance drive. I usually leave my house with about 1/2 battery (60% charge). By the time I get down to the main road I'm up to full. When I get back to the by house my battery guage is at about 1/2 again. (As a note, the prius only allows you to deplete the battery to about 50%. The state of charge bar graph on the display shows empty at 40% and full at 80%)

North American market Prius hybrids don't get great mileage numbers on short trips. The reason is that the car will always turns on the engine to bring it up to operating temperature for emmision reasons. So the first 3-5 miles the engine is running. After the engine is warmed up, it goes on and off as needed. In Europe and Asia, Prius hybrids have an "EV Button". This button allows you to operate the vehicle in electric only mode as long has you don't go over 35mph. When the battery gets down to about 50%, the engine comes on and it runs like normal. Apparently the EV only mode is good for about 1.5 to 2 miles with a full battery.

Also note that your careful driving friend is getting better overall mileage than the "Bogus EPA numbers" The Civic Hybrid is rated @ 49 city / 51 highway. The Civic Hybrid is very different than the Prius. It has a more sporty feel. I drove one in CA for 400 miles from San Francisco to Yosemite NP and back. We got 48mpg by the computer, 50 mpg by calculating.
 

rotarykid

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And for all those that believe that they have the right to waste all the oil they want ,

Oil is a strategic quantity commodity .

For those that don't know what that means , our security is tied to a adequate supply . And wasting oil in low mpg transport endangers that supply endangering all of us .

We tax payers pay in the range of $120 a barrel @ the current open market price of $60 a barrel of crude oil . That $120 a barrel price include the price of posting our troops in the middle east to secure that oil supply . Not to mention the blood which is spilled to keep that oil flowing , by American & other countries in the western world . Along with the blood that the innocent people that live in the middle east loose/spill everyday just trying to live their life .

I for one have no problem with the current monetary price , but I do have a problem with the fact that my taxes & our solders lives are used to subsidize the oil that low mpg SUVs & Pickup trucks are wasting doing jobs that a 40 mpg vehicle could easily accomplish .

There is no excuse for a single passenger vehicle to get below 30 mpg US under any conditions . And this has been the case for over 20 years .

Diesel is the only option we have currently to reduce our consumption enough to make us safer .

Hybrid tech might come into its' own in the next 10 years making it a real money making option , but today the auto companies loose money on each hybrid that is sold .

We do have a choice of what tomorrow brings if we use our voices & our knowledge to make Americas' roads a different place , a more efficient place .
 

rotarykid

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"I didn't say I get 65 mpg, I said I get around 60 in the city. My best city only mileage has been 64, currently my average on this tank is 59 mpg. The Prius is rated at 60 city / 51 mpg highway."

I just thought I'd throw in the fact that I've gotten just above 64 mpg US twice in a 97 Passat TDI in city driving . I would also throw in that was in a car that is twice the size of the your hybrid .

My normal mpgs in city driving are in the high 50s ( 55 to 58 mpg US ) . And is well known this design of engine can run without in issue in the warm summer temps on close 100% Biodiesel and still get around 50 mpg .

I hope that someday hybrid tech can be pushed into the 100 mpg range , but until then a diesel is the better option .
 

Dunno513

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I say let the world have a permanent oil shortage and watch all the naysayers cry foul...

I can't wait for the next round of American Ignorance Bashing fun. :D

Back in 4th grade I think, (Circa early 80's) our teachers told us to conserve oil cuz it wasn't going to be around forever. But they said It won't be our problem, but it will be our children's problem. And look what we did over the past 25 years.. Nothing...

But now we get Congress and the Prez to start throwing money at us if we "conserve" fuel... Hmmm..... wonder if they know something that we keep denying over and over and ...... :rolleyes:

So when fuel hits 4-5 bucks a gallon this summer, please don't start that oil company profits crap again. Just try to think back and realize that "you" helped create this mess. ;)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I was in Montreal yesterday where gasoline and diesel are bout about $.97 a liter CAD. What's interesting is the overwhelming majority of subcompact cars and the lack of trucks and SUVs. There's a place where market pressure (high fuel prices) have shaped consumers' habits.

And everyone seems to be driving on 4 winter tires, most of the studded. So much for the myth of needing 4WD for winter driving.
 

jhintontdi

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rotarykid said:
"I didn't say I get 65 mpg, I said I get around 60 in the city. My best city only mileage has been 64, currently my average on this tank is 59 mpg. The Prius is rated at 60 city / 51 mpg highway."

I just thought I'd throw in the fact that I've gotten just above 64 mpg US twice in a 97 Passat TDI in city driving . I would also throw in that was in a car that is twice the size of the your hybrid.
That's great that you get great mileage in your TDI Passat. I don't doubt it, because I get great mileage in my 03 TDI Jetta. (Which is the size of your '97 Passat) I would love to be able to use Biodiesel but the closest pump is 75 miles away. :mad:

However I suggest you do some research before saying that your Passat is "twice the size" of my hybrid. Maybe your thinking of the Honda Insight (that gets up to 80mpg) but your Passat is the same size as my Prius.
Take a look at the specs:

---------------------------'97 Passat -----'05 Prius
Passemger Volume (ft^3)---98.70-------------96.2
Cargo Volume (ft^3)-------14.40--------------16.1
Length (Inches)----------- 181 --------------175
Wheelbase (Inches)------- 103.3-------------106.3
Width (inches)------------ 67.5---------------67.9
Height (inches)----------- 56.4--------------- 58.1

Diesel and hybrid technology are both good ways to increase fuel economy and reduce oil consumption. I disagree with you when you say that hybrid technology may be great in the future. Hybrids are here now, they've been here for 7 years, and are only getting better.
 

rotarykid

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IndigoBlueWagon said:
I was in Montreal yesterday where gasoline and diesel are bout about $.97 a liter CAD. What's interesting is the overwhelming majority of subcompact cars and the lack of trucks and SUVs. There's a place where market pressure (high fuel prices) have shaped consumers' habits.

And everyone seems to be driving on 4 winter tires, most of the studded. So much for the myth of needing 4WD for winter driving.
I lived on Oahu in the early 90s and there were no large old or new vehicles . Gas & Diesel were 0.25 to 0.50 cent more a gal than on the mainland . I took an 83 Quantum TD & my 85 Jetta TD to the Island . There were a few diesel VWs still running around , but not many . I was last there in 98 and there still weren't large cars . So I aggree high prices @ the pump do work to reduce fuel consumption .

I wish that didn't have to be the case but I am convinced that we must have a substained $4 + a gal to get America started down the path to more efficent transport for the masses .
 

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rotarykid said:
donDavide said:
Anyone that believes that the oil companies haven't a direct influence on the low mpg junk we have been sold over the last 20 years is indeed clueless of how our auto industry works .

In Europe where there has never been massive amounts of cheap oil in the ground high mpg diesels were the only option that made since .

So you get ;

No "big oil" influence in auto production = diesel that give you high mpg transport .

"Big oil" influence in auto production = gasoline power that returns low mpg transport .
I do believe that oils companies have there say! And I do believe there is a conspiracy. Rotary, Lions, Skull and bones, Bohemian Grove, all free masons or worse. A good conspiracy is one that goes by un-noticed.

America will never see the high mpg cars, there is a market for those cars, yet they are never introduced into the us market.

I believe there is a website on the whole conspiracy thing... www.infowars.com or something.


If you believe that there will be cars avail. like the Fox TDI (new Lupo) or anything like it... DREAM ON:cool:
 

rotarykid

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jhintontdi said:
rotarykid said:
"I didn't say I get 65 mpg, I said I get around 60 in the city. My best city only mileage has been 64, currently my average on this tank is 59 mpg. The Prius is rated at 60 city / 51 mpg highway."

I just thought I'd throw in the fact that I've gotten just above 64 mpg US twice in a 97 Passat TDI in city driving . I would also throw in that was in a car that is twice the size of the your hybrid.
That's great that you get great mileage in your TDI Passat. I don't doubt it, because I get great mileage in my 03 TDI Jetta. (Which is the size of your '97 Passat) I would love to be able to use Biodiesel but the closest pump is 75 miles away. :mad:

However I suggest you do some research before saying that your Passat is "twice the size" of my hybrid. Maybe your thinking of the Honda Insight (that gets up to 80mpg) but your Passat is the same size as my Prius.
Take a look at the specs:

---------------------------'97 Passat -----'05 Prius
Passemger Volume (ft^3)---98.70-------------96.2
Cargo Volume (ft^3)-------14.40--------------16.1
Length (Inches)----------- 181 --------------175
Wheelbase (Inches)------- 103.3-------------106.3
Width (inches)------------ 67.5---------------67.9
Height (inches)----------- 56.4--------------- 58.1

Diesel and hybrid technology are both good ways to increase fuel economy and reduce oil consumption. I disagree with you when you say that hybrid technology may be great in the future. Hybrids are here now, they've been here for 7 years, and are only getting better.
You compare a regular small displacement gasoline powered Civic or another small car that can get close to 40 mpgs in normal driving and you will see that the B4 Passat is 1 1/2 times the size of these cars , at a minimum .


There are many that are 1/2 the size the B4 TDI . And the A4 Jetta is not as big inside or outside as the B4 Passat . The new A5 Jetta comes close , but it is still not quite the size of the B4 Passat .

I ride & drive both A4 & B4 TDIs regularly and can tell you that the A4 is smaller & lighter than the B4 .

That having been said , I would prefer to have an A2 size TDI car for everyday driving . I've owned & do still own 2 A2 diesels along with many B2 & A2 diesels & Turbodiesels that returned high 30s to high 40s mpg US . I am convinced that an A2 size TDI could return 60 mpg in everyday driving without effort . If I had the option I would buy one in a minute .

If you had to pay the real cost of the Hybrid in $$ of production cost , which we never have up to this point a high tech diesel would win every time .

He!! even a low tech diesel of the 70s & 80s VW/ Audi/ Volvo/ Mazda/ Toyota/ Issuzu........ect , could out mpg the current hybrids in a size to size & weight to weight appraisal .

The Lupo ( 3L TDI ) in head to head competition destroyed all hybrids in the race across America a few years ago . The Lupo achieved well over 100 mpg US in the competition leaving the Toyota & Honda hybrids which produced in the mid 60s mpg US max in the dust .

VW/Audi proved last year that a real buildable & driveable 1L Diesel powered vehicle ( 1L/100km , 234 mpg US , 279 mpg Imp ) could be produced .

Come back and boast about how good hybrids are when they can do what has already been done with current high tech produceable & produced diesel powered vehicles .
 

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Bob_Fout said:
There've been a million excuses for upping the price of fuel since 2001 or 2002.

Unless our need for oil (for fuel and plastic) goes away in the next 20 years, look out world 'cause it's gonna get ugly.
good point, Fout -- lots of people forget about plastics: Take a look around, our entire civilisation depends on plastics. when oil gets scarce, and it will, people will die for the right to own tupperware. so next time oil prices rise, dont blame oil corporation conspiracy- they are just doing what we created them to do. Blame every jackass in a 15 mpg truck with no passengers and nothing in the bed doing 95 on the highway. that guy is putting you one step closer to a return to the iron age. or more likely stone age.
 

turtleburger

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I didnt see any mention in the article of the fact that petrol IS 6-8$ gallon in europe-- americans wont really give a care about economy until we pay the same here, IMO

maybe the automakers know something we refuse to admit, hence the optimistic outlook for future diesel sales:rolleyes:
 

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rotarykid said:
Anyone that believes that the oil companies haven't a direct influence on the low mpg junk we have been sold over the last 20 years is indeed clueless of how our auto industry works .
Uh, lets see. The American auto industry has introduced relatively high mpg cars over the last 30 years that were not favored by the public when it came to buying them. John Q. Public preferred the bigger, roomier, safer, and more stylish larger car and SUV. Must be the oil companies' fault.:rolleyes:

CAFE made it difficult to sell high profit luxury cars and SUV's without selling a lot of small cars. So, the automakers made small cars as "value loss leaders" to make it profitable to stay in business. Must be oil companies' fault.:rolleyes:

The US voter elects representatives that are keenly aware of the desire for low priced fuel in all areas, not just automotive transport, so there are no heavy taxes on fuel. The rest of the market responds to supply and demand. Must be a conspiracy by the oil companies.:rolleyes:

US bumper regulations, safety concerns, and CAFE create a product that looks like a melted sausage for a car, but SUV's are different, roomier, and fit a rugged style typical of American culture. Must be the conspiracy of these nasty, horrible oil companies.:rolleyes:

Sure the oil companies affect the choice of vehicle sold in the US. Just like water determines where fish are found.:D

TM
 

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rotarykid said:
Come back and boast about how good hybrids are when they can do what has already been done with current high tech produceable & produced diesel powered vehicles .
Exactly! It takes two sources of energy for a hybrid to do what diesels have been doing for a long time. Bring on some hybrids that actually do something impressive and I'll be for it 100%. But current hybrids do nothing special while being touted as something wonderful. They cost too much money and have too many issues while not providing any impressive MPG numbers compared to intitial cost and maintenance/parts replacement costs. Current hybrids are not an answer, they are just a placebo that give an appearance of being "green" while they are not.

Even though hybrids have been out for 7 yrs, it is still considered new technology. There is still a great deal of data on them that needs to come in to know if they are actually more harmful to the environment (all things considered) than good. And if the battery can hold up well for 100k, what about the rest of the car? The prius is not a well built car like a TDI that can last and last (how long will it's engine last? Maybe as long as the battery?). Not to mention frequent tire replacement.

Obviously, there are a great deal of people who are not getting near the EPA listed MPG with their hybrids (many people have made that their main complaint about their purchase of current hybrids), hence EPA's statements. Real-world tests have shown that hybrids do not perform as well as advertised.

If sales continue to sag for current hybrids as the public becomes more aware of all their issues and realistic MPG, as well as the "newness" factor wearing out like a worn out fad, current hybrids will be seen as more trouble than they are worth. IMO, current hybrids are way more trouble than they are worth and have not performed nearly as well as such a car should considering the amount of attention they have received.

If you own a hybrid and enjoy it, great! But not all of us are convinced that they are a good or wise choice when considering and weighing out all the issues.
Cheers and HH!:)

Texas T
 
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rotarykid

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I'm sorry but the crap they tried to sell , the crap that the American big 3 tried to dump on the public included Vega , Pinto , Mustang II none of which got out of the low 20s mpg . The only diesels the big 3 ever sold were ill fitting drive trains made from Asian auto makers .

Now compare that to the VW Dasher , Rabbit & Jetta diesel of the same years that returned 40 + mpg in all types of driving . Or to Toyota Camry TD , Corrolla D & small pickup diesels & Celica , Honda Accord & Civic , or the Nissan B210 , Sentra & Maxima diesels & small pickup diesels , or the Mazda 626 diesel & small pickup diesels, 323 , Mitsubishi turbodiesel , Issuzu diesels all of which were reliable & safe and returned high 20s to 40 + mpg US from 1977 to 1986 .

And if you try to throw any of the big 3 diesels into the mix they were Japan built engines & trans shoehorned into their piece of just bodies .

Most of these had to have the battery installed in the trunk because the diesel drive train was such a hard fit . The Ford Tempo & Escort had a Mazda diesel drive train with the batteries installed in the trunk . They built junk is that couldn't compete with cars & trucks built to be long lived & fuel efficient by Asian & European auto makers .

That is why the big 3 were more than happy to have the gift of cheap oil from the oil companies so they could continue to build the junk that had made them go broke in the 70s & 80s . Cheap oil and a leader that cared only about making his friends rich dropped our push for a CAFE average of 40 mpg fleet wide by the early 90s .

Big Oil & the US auto makers got just what they wanted .The ability to sell the low mpg junk that should have stopped being produced in 70s & the oil companies got a 3 fold increase in auto fuels consummed . SEe how that works ....

The big 3 never built or sold a real high mpg vehicle that were designed & built in North America , so your argument just doesn't hold water .

From 1977 to 1986 we cut our consumption of crude oil in transportation by 75 % . Since we have abandoned CAFE in 1985 we have dropped fleet mpgs to their lowest numbers since 1979 .

The big 3s' greed and failure to design real world vehicles was allowed to continue to today by the gift of cheap oil by big oil . This is indisputable .
 
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Andrei Rinea

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Still I don't see why the fight between Diesels and hybrids since there are some hybrids (well not in production yet :) ) which don't use a gasoline engine but a Diesel engine! Imagine a Diesel hybrid in the big cities what mileage would get.
 

rotarykid

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Andrei Rinea said:
Still I don't see why the fight between Diesels and hybrids since there are some hybrids (well not in production yet :) ) which don't use a gasoline engine but a Diesel engine! Imagine a Diesel hybrid in the big cities what mileage would get.
A SDI ( normally aspirated ) engine would be well suited for todays hybrid tech and give extremely good fuel economy . But because of the stricter emissions on the current diesels a turbocharger is required . A turbocharged engine cannot be feasibly used with todays current hybrid tech .

By the way in 87/88 VW/Audi built 100 A2 Golf hybrid/electric diesels that could return in excess of 100 + mpg US as testers of the tech . But because of the stricter emissions they knew were coming to diesels they decided to go with the TDI tech .
 
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AltaVoyager

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http://www.egmcartech.com/2006/12/13/report-vws-first-petrol-electric-hybrid-will-be-a-jetta-in-2009/

Volkswagen has told a UK publication that its first petrol-electric hybrid will be a Jetta in 2009. The petrol-electric Jetta hybrid will achieve greater efficiency than a normal TDI Volkswagen model. Volkswagen has seen hybrids in the US as a bandwagon product and has decided to stick to improving their diesel platforms. Nonetheless, Volkswagen will be jumping on the bandwagon in 2009. The current Volkswagen Jetta TDI does 35/42 mpg.
 

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AltaVoyager said:
http://www.egmcartech.com/2006/12/13/report-vws-first-petrol-electric-hybrid-will-be-a-jetta-in-2009/

Volkswagen has told a UK publication that its first petrol-electric hybrid will be a Jetta in 2009. The petrol-electric Jetta hybrid will achieve greater efficiency than a normal TDI Volkswagen model. Volkswagen has seen hybrids in the US as a bandwagon product and has decided to stick to improving their diesel platforms. Nonetheless, Volkswagen will be jumping on the bandwagon in 2009. The current Volkswagen Jetta TDI does 35/42 mpg.
While current hybrids are little more than a waste (IMO), it doesn't mean they have to be in the future. Hopefully, VW will do better than the other's have so far and actually build a hybrid that would make some sense. I could see them eventually shifting it to a diesel-hybrid as the technology grows. I'm sure they would like to combine the two technologies if possible and create a hybrid that gets 80+ MPG. TDI(H) possibly? If VW made a nice looking hybrid that could get 80+ MPG average, I might possibly consider one. Who knows, 2009 is a ways off yet and many things can change or develop before then.

AltaVoyager, Thanks for sharing the article.
 

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rez311 said:
Hybrid batteries get chucked into the ocean, and we eat the fish that breath the water.
This is a late response on this but you are so wrong that one would have to question your mental status. The car/truck/boat or any other battery is recycled at at a battery mfr plant. Every time you buy a new battery it has recycled parts in it. Gee...why do you think they give you a couple bucks when you turn your old battery in?? Hmmm that water in Kalifornia gotta be good stuff.
 

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Txst said:
While current hybrids are little more than a waste (IMO), it doesn't mean they have to be in the future.
The hybrid technology you are dissing is already second generation stuff, breaking ground for the generations to follow... like the one you say you might consider below. So it clearly isn't a "waste".

Txst said:
... Hopefully, VW will do better than the other's have so far and actually build a hybrid that would make some sense. I could see them eventually shifting it to a diesel-hybrid as the technology grows. I'm sure they would like to combine the two technologies if possible and create a hybrid that gets 80+ MPG. TDI(H) possibly? If VW made a nice looking hybrid that could get 80+ MPG average, I might possibly consider one. Who knows, 2009 is a ways off yet and many things can change or develop before then.
 

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RC said:
The hybrid technology you are dissing is already second generation stuff, breaking ground for the generations to follow... like the one you say you might consider below. So it clearly isn't a "waste".
I have mentioned in other posts that I think current hybrids may be useful in that they are guinea pigs. Hopefully, companies are learning from their mistakes with current hybrids and will start making some that actually make sense besides being useful as a guinea pig. Until future hybrids are proven to be much better than current one's, the one's that currently exist are little more than a waste. At best, they are just expensive guinea pigs. Not too impressive IMO.
Cheers
 

Txst

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RC said:
They are not a waste, even by your own definition. Just admit it and move on.
OK, I admit it. They are not a waste. But still, little more than a waste;), and unimpressive (IMO) as I stated earlier.

Thanks for re-posting that link, I hadn't seen it. Interesting.
 

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There's no conspiracy here. Over and over we've proven ourselves unwilling to change behavior. When I was a kid people rode around in Ford Country Squires, Olds Vistacruisers and Chevrolet Caprice Wagons. What's a Suburban but a Caprice set higher off the ground? And don't tell me it's an off-road vehicle. Overhang, soft suspension, etc., get in the way of that. And they're not any safer in the snow. The number of SUV roll-overs around here each winter is pretty stunning.

My family has always had small cars, but, to be honest, more because we enjoyed them more than large cars than any other reason. My dad was impressed with effecient vehicles, and he passed that interest on to me.

I can't for the life of me think of a single American designed and assembled small car that wasn't a piece of crap. This country's answer to the Volkswagen and a raft of other european cars in the late 50s and 60s was the Valiant, the Mercury Comet, and the Chevy Nova. Hardly small, and certainly not impressive, even though the durability of the Dodge Dart was pretty great.

The next generation of Toyota and Datsun fighters were the Chevy Vega and the Ford Pinto. And let's not forget the Chevette, that tortured Opel. The Chevette Diesel was a piece of work, wasn't it?

Now we get the Dodge Caliber and the Chevy Cobalt. And Ford has pretty much given up on domestic design for small cars, handing that over to Mazda. I could go on (apparently I already have).

I don't think a ten year-old Prius will have the appeal of a B4 Passat. And I agree that the A2 was a great sized car. I feel similarly about the A3. They are roomy enough, have a huge trunk, and drive really well. What's out there for competition? Nothing right now. I hope Honda's car is a hit. And I hope Toyota jumps into diesels with both feet. They've been making them for years for Asia. What's Detroit working on? Nothing, I assume.
 

RC

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Two White 96 B4 Wagons
IndigoBlueWagon said:
... And I agree that the A2 was a great sized car. I feel similarly about the A3. They are roomy enough, have a huge trunk, and drive really well. What's out there for competition? Nothing right now. I hope Honda's car is a hit. And I hope Toyota jumps into diesels with both feet. They've been making them for years for Asia. What's Detroit working on? Nothing, I assume.
My biggest problem with the imports is that the pick ups keep growing in what seems to be an attempt to vie with the domestics. What good is a diesel engine in a four door pick up with an 8 foot bed? Well great if you need one, but what about a good deal of us that would love to have a diesel in a pick up the size of those imports in the early 90's.
 
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