By "free" I mean you only have to cut down a tree, or shovel coal from the ground. It is an available usable resource like water from a stream or well. Obviously some work involved in harvesting and transporting it, but all you have to do is light it! The plants and trees generated the oxygen that is consumed in the combustion.Seems sensible to me. But wood/biomass energy can be carbon neutral, and coal is seldom free.
Doesn't burning natural gas release hydrocarbons?In my neck of the woods most power is hydro, some nuclear, and some natural gas as needed in peak demands, so charging a EV is pretty darn clean. But people forget in parts of the USA and the world where hydrocarbons are burned to produce electricity, the studies have shown that in these areas charging the EV's puts more pollutants into the air than a gas or diesel vehicle. So the power generation would have to be cleaned up as well.
300 is realistic if you live in the city. If you live rural, 600 is more realistic.I had originally written 600 miles but changed it to a more realistic 300 for a general average.
Yes natural gas releases hydrocarbons, but it is much cleaner than oil and coal. And they only fire up the nat gas if the existing hydro and nuclear can't keep up with demand, which is not very often.
Yup, I second that. I've started up a few engines while volunteering at the train museum. I pretty much have that startup sound engrained in my head!I know that, love the sound of trains as they power up. The irony is that electric trucks was brought up and that they'd be powered or are powered by diesel generators. So they aren't truly clean electric trucks are they!
Most natural gas is burned in gas turbines... not steam turbines. They can be online and generating electricity in <5 minutes.To be clear, you do not just "fire up" a steam turbine system when demand is there. They are generally left "fired" on stand by, because you cannot boil water to make steam to turn the turbine with a flip of a switch.
Or the Chinese. Hey, if they can make the Buick Envision, they can make a cheap Chinese built EV suitable for the US market. How long the vehicle itself lasts is another story. With our luck, it'd end up like a Hyundai from the late 80s!Ditto. CARB has been trying to ban ICE vehicles in favor of electric for over 20 some years and hasn't been able to get a mainstream, affordable one yet. For an EVs to fully replace the ICE passenger vehicles, they need to do the following:
1. Drive an absolute minimum of 300 miles on a full charge;
2. Recharge to 100% in less than 10 minutes, preferably 5;
3. Cost no more than $25,000;
4. Come in ALL sizes from sub-compacts to luxury sedans, pickups, vans, SUVs, sports cars, motorcycles, etc.
5. See Rembrant's post #31 below.
All that said however, if ANYBODY can do the above, it'd be the Germans.
I don't suppose this was Cal State LA, was it? I remember taking photos for the school paper during Investiture, in which our University President (new at the time) dedicated our hydrogen refueling station, the largest of any college campus refueling station in the US. I remember there were representatives there from GM, BMW and I think Mercedes. I know they've been experimenting with solar, electric and hydrogen for 20-30 years, as a joint venture between Technology (my department) and Mechanical Engineering (both part of ECST - the College of Engineering, Computer Science and Technology).A couple of comments:
20 - 30 years ago at one of the colleges down in Southern California, engineering students built and demonstrated a car that ran on Hydrogen. IIRC, the Hydrogen was stored in some solid form that released the gas when heated, rather than in a compressed or liquid state. I don't recall if the engine was fuel cell driven or another way, but I do recall that the ONLY "emission" was water vapor.
Yeah, there are still about a dozen states getting most of their grid power from coal. Coal is falling off fast though. We get pretty close to 0% from coal in Maine. Nat. gas, hydro, and other* dominate supply here. Maine leads in the other category at slightly over 25%. The categories are Nat. gas, coal, nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, oil, and other. I'm thinking most of the other here is from burning wood chips.Ah, good to know. We just burn good ol' coal here, with a couple nukes mixed in.
Good eye. Fixed. Clearly no Carbon in water! It's ElementalThe numbers in the bottom right of the combustion diagram should have 2O not 2C. Wonder how long its been that way in the source?
To be clear, this is the same Germany that is home to the folks at Bosch and Volkswagen who knowingly cheated on emissions standards, correct?
Just want to clarify.
Touche... to an extent... AFD IS in Parliament now, but I would say the government does not necessarily support or condone the decisions of all corporations! I stand by the statement that the comment I responded to was asinine, differences of opinion aside! This was well said:Also want to add, that Germany is back peddling on the millions of immigrants it has let in and Merkel is in deep do do. As a matter of fact, a few European Country's are now back peddling too but that's for a different thread.
I agree with all this... I always enjoyed Jeremy Clarkson AND thought his climate change denial was ludicrous. Not a bad goal to move away from the ICE, but those of us that have gotten used to the ICE experience will be hard to please with alternatives... I think we will do more good faster by focusing on getting the grid onto renewables, especially since that's where the charge for the electric cars comes from anyway. I don't remember the exact stats, but it seems like cars are responsible for 1/5th, or so, of greenhouse emissions. Electricity from fossil fuels, powering electric cars, does not solve the problem (not saying the ICE is helping, but I am attached to my cars... well then again I sold the Golf back to VW......). Sorry about the JSW!!! Cheers!The people at Bosch and VW involved in perpetrating dieselgate are NOT representative of your average German, or Bosch/VW employee for that matter.
If they were, would you still be driving a VW? Maybe. It happens to be a pretty good car
What is bad or wrong about setting goals to wean humans from fossil fuel powered ICEs? The physics behind global warming are sound, and the extraordinary speed of the climate change we are observing is ominous. Changes like this typically take thousands of years (except when a meteor hits the earth). This is happening in a few hundred years, uh, since we started liberating CO2, it turns out. Starting with coal... the industrial revolution.
Burning wood or coal for heat is essentially "free". But does that mean we should chop all the trees down or keep burning coal? Of course not. Frankly, reduced carbon sources we use for fuel out of convenience are excellent starting compounds for synthesis of natural products in our oxidizing environment. There is lots of energy stored in those hydrocarbons. And it was the plants and trees that created this oxidizing environment in the first place, creating an environment for animals (oxygen) !! If anything, we should be planting trees and plants as if our lives depended on it. Ya think?
Reminds me of Jay Leno saying electric cars are great so there will still be fuel left for motorheads and weekend fun.Sunlight, wind, and geothermal energy are basically free as well. Thanks to progressive countries like Germany, the economics of those renewable energy sources are becoming favorable vs. traditionally cheap, carbon emitting energy sources like coal and oil. But change is difficult for some, even when it's in a positive direction.
Indeed, lol... reminded me of this...Make Germany Great Again! Oh, wait a minute- scratch that. Carry on Germany.
pretty sure but going by memory, they've got NG fired turbine engine "peaking stations" just a gas generator and power turbine directly coupled to a generator, then they also use the exhaust heat from that to make steam to run a steam turbine because why notTo be clear, you do not just "fire up" a steam turbine system when demand is there. They are generally left "fired" on stand by, because you cannot boil water to make steam to turn the turbine with a flip of a switch.
Chances are they are running, burning fuel, boiling water, making steam, all the time... just not as much. That is often the problem with grids (as we have them now) and wind/solar hooked to them. In order to keep the line voltage constant, there has to be a backup ready to go much of the time.
One of the mods here is a power station manager, he can weigh in if he wants on the particulars.
Yep, I agree. Same way I feel about people clustering to live in urban areas. Have at it, better for those of us that want to live in the sticks with no neighbors!Reminds me of Jay Leno saying electric cars are great so there will still be fuel left for motorheads and weekend fun.
What BS? and Who's "they" ? FYI, the engineers at Bosch and Volkswagen are not the same people as the representatives in Bundesrat. And by the way... do not expect any more new diesel Volkswagens in the USA. Really, it is not a conspiracy. And no, it is NOT a bumper to bumper warantee. Who told you that?? Genocide? No genocide happening or even on the horizon in Germany. What are you talking about?Let's see... First VW Says it's not going to sell Diesels anymore in the USA... (I'll call B.S. since they have the fix now for the Dieselgate buyback cars and they want (NEED) to recoup the money they spent buying them back by reselling them with HUGE incentives i.e. BUMPER to BUMPER Warranties added after factory warranty ends...
They are going to TELL you they will not make them any more as they want to SELL all the old stuff first.
Then German "Lawmakers" say they're gonna ban ICE's (which may be true in the politions utopian minds as they are letting, helping, promoting Muslims to INVADE their country INVITING Genocide by the name of "Diversity" on the German people).
Time for people with 1/2 a brain to wake up and quit listening to the B.S.
Add on top of that... they pull off Dieselgate, then we're supposed to believe them?