German Lawmakers Ban Internal Combustion Engines by 2030

turbobrick240

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Seems sensible to me. But wood/biomass energy can be carbon neutral, and coal is seldom free.
 

dubStrom

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Seems sensible to me. But wood/biomass energy can be carbon neutral, and coal is seldom free.
By "free" I mean you only have to cut down a tree, or shovel coal from the ground. It is an available usable resource like water from a stream or well. Obviously some work involved in harvesting and transporting it, but all you have to do is light it! The plants and trees generated the oxygen that is consumed in the combustion.

If we had always made clean and renewable energy as soon as we knew how, and saved reduced carbon like coal, propane, diesel and gasoline as a chemical precursor for synthetic stuff like plastics, we would not have a baking planet, and would have those resources for other purposes.

But you will never stop people from harvesting the free easy stuff like trees and gasoline without trying. What I am saying is that when the representatives of the people in Germany set this goal, it is a good thing. Of course there are people that will laugh it up, or dismiss it as posturing or pandering, or worse yet label it misguided because they don't believe the science, but those politicians are responding to their constituents.
 
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turbobrick240

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Sunlight, wind, and geothermal energy are basically free as well. Thanks to progressive countries like Germany, the economics of those renewable energy sources are becoming favorable vs. traditionally cheap, carbon emitting energy sources like coal and oil. But change is difficult for some, even when it's in a positive direction.
 

flee

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This scenario is a lot like evolution. Vehicle technology is constantly evolving and
the German government can be looked at like an evolutionary 'pressure' to E-car
development. This will likely result in better, cheaper E-cars available sooner than
we would have seen them otherwise.
But we will see them. Evolution happens with or without government intervention.
 

Mark_J

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In my neck of the woods most power is hydro, some nuclear, and some natural gas as needed in peak demands, so charging a EV is pretty darn clean. But people forget in parts of the USA and the world where hydrocarbons are burned to produce electricity, the studies have shown that in these areas charging the EV's puts more pollutants into the air than a gas or diesel vehicle. So the power generation would have to be cleaned up as well.
 

romad

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In my neck of the woods most power is hydro, some nuclear, and some natural gas as needed in peak demands, so charging a EV is pretty darn clean. But people forget in parts of the USA and the world where hydrocarbons are burned to produce electricity, the studies have shown that in these areas charging the EV's puts more pollutants into the air than a gas or diesel vehicle. So the power generation would have to be cleaned up as well.
Doesn't burning natural gas release hydrocarbons?

But yes when the nannies try to push electric over everything else, they bury the fact that the majority of electricity is produced using coal and other fossil fuel plants.
 

Mark_J

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Yes natural gas releases hydrocarbons, but it is much cleaner than oil and coal. And they only fire up the nat gas if the existing hydro and nuclear can't keep up with demand, which is not very often.
 

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:D I had originally written 600 miles but changed it to a more realistic 300 for a general average.
300 is realistic if you live in the city. If you live rural, 600 is more realistic.

So when municipalities force big rig trucks to go electric, I wonder if that will substantially raise shipping costs? Or maybe make shipping costs go down? And whether it will require government subsidies or not.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Yes natural gas releases hydrocarbons, but it is much cleaner than oil and coal. And they only fire up the nat gas if the existing hydro and nuclear can't keep up with demand, which is not very often.

To be clear, you do not just "fire up" a steam turbine system when demand is there. They are generally left "fired" on stand by, because you cannot boil water to make steam to turn the turbine with a flip of a switch.

Chances are they are running, burning fuel, boiling water, making steam, all the time... just not as much. That is often the problem with grids (as we have them now) and wind/solar hooked to them. In order to keep the line voltage constant, there has to be a backup ready to go much of the time.

One of the mods here is a power station manager, he can weigh in if he wants on the particulars.
 

pkhoury

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I know that, love the sound of trains as they power up. The irony is that electric trucks was brought up and that they'd be powered or are powered by diesel generators. So they aren't truly clean electric trucks are they! ;)
Yup, I second that. I've started up a few engines while volunteering at the train museum. I pretty much have that startup sound engrained in my head!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxSklJP_-D0

Our museum also has electric traction, although all of our electric locomotives (except one, which has no train brakes, only locomotive brakes) are currently out of service indefinitely. The street cars are pretty darn quiet, and even our steam locomotive is reasonably quiet, compared to our diesel-electrics.

At one point, there were direct drive diesel locomotives (and we even have an example of a direct drive gasoline locomotive, ironically used by Southern California Edison, the regional electric utility), but they aren't that efficient, thus, nobody uses them anymore.
(This is similar to what we have - http://www.azrymuseum.org/Projects/Plymouth/Plymouth.htm)

Isn't the Chevy Volt supposed to function in a similar fashion? Rather than being a hybrid, it's a gas-electric vehicle? Except that trains don't operate on battery packs alone. That was tried with the Green Goat, which didn't last long, and took its manufacturer into bankruptcy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railpower_GG20B
http://www.american-rails.com/gensets.html
https://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/hybrid-locomotive-maker-loses-steam/?mcubz=1
 
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nwdiver

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To be clear, you do not just "fire up" a steam turbine system when demand is there. They are generally left "fired" on stand by, because you cannot boil water to make steam to turn the turbine with a flip of a switch.
Most natural gas is burned in gas turbines... not steam turbines. They can be online and generating electricity in <5 minutes.

Even combined cycle plants which use the exhaust from the gas turbine to heat water and run a steam turbine for increased efficiency can be operated as simple cycle until the steam turbine is ready.
 

pkhoury

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Ditto. CARB has been trying to ban ICE vehicles in favor of electric for over 20 some years and hasn't been able to get a mainstream, affordable one yet. For an EVs to fully replace the ICE passenger vehicles, they need to do the following:

1. Drive an absolute minimum of 300 miles on a full charge;
2. Recharge to 100% in less than 10 minutes, preferably 5;
3. Cost no more than $25,000;
4. Come in ALL sizes from sub-compacts to luxury sedans, pickups, vans, SUVs, sports cars, motorcycles, etc.
5. See Rembrant's post #31 below.

All that said however, if ANYBODY can do the above, it'd be the Germans.
Or the Chinese. Hey, if they can make the Buick Envision, they can make a cheap Chinese built EV suitable for the US market. How long the vehicle itself lasts is another story. With our luck, it'd end up like a Hyundai from the late 80s!


A couple of comments:

20 - 30 years ago at one of the colleges down in Southern California, engineering students built and demonstrated a car that ran on Hydrogen. IIRC, the Hydrogen was stored in some solid form that released the gas when heated, rather than in a compressed or liquid state. I don't recall if the engine was fuel cell driven or another way, but I do recall that the ONLY "emission" was water vapor.
I don't suppose this was Cal State LA, was it? I remember taking photos for the school paper during Investiture, in which our University President (new at the time) dedicated our hydrogen refueling station, the largest of any college campus refueling station in the US. I remember there were representatives there from GM, BMW and I think Mercedes. I know they've been experimenting with solar, electric and hydrogen for 20-30 years, as a joint venture between Technology (my department) and Mechanical Engineering (both part of ECST - the College of Engineering, Computer Science and Technology).
 

turbobrick240

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Ah, good to know. We just burn good ol' coal here, with a couple nukes mixed in.
Yeah, there are still about a dozen states getting most of their grid power from coal. Coal is falling off fast though. We get pretty close to 0% from coal in Maine. Nat. gas, hydro, and other* dominate supply here. Maine leads in the other category at slightly over 25%. The categories are Nat. gas, coal, nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, oil, and other. I'm thinking most of the other here is from burning wood chips.
 
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Mark_J

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oilhammer, I never said that you just "fire up" a steam turbine system when demand is there". I realize they are on standby. I have and still do operate boilers at the plant where I work. Yes they are idling and producing steam and keeping the steam turbines hot and ready to go, but we are not producing electricity.
 

dubStrom

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The fundamental chemistry of combustion should be common knowledge. We do it SO much. Reduced carbon is oxidized, where the stoichiometry (ratio) of the balanced equation depends on the fuel. Combustion of cellulose (hydrated carbon) yields less energy, but the fundamental equation is the same.

Burning wood (paper) doesn't yield as much energy as fully reduced carbon like diesel oil or methane (natural gas). But the reaction is essentially the same:
[/url]methanecombustion by gs1100ghoot, on Flickr[/IMG]

That is the COMPLETE oxidation of methane. "CLEAN" because there is no Mercury, or other heavy metals and crap in the fuel (coal), but anthropogenic Carbon dioxide and water is inevitably there. It can be partial combustion at some efficiency level (some Carbon monoxide). WATER and Carbon dioxide and/or Carbon monoxide and water are the products every time, no matter which reduced or partially reduced/hydrated hydrocarbon is the fuel. The general formula for carbohydrates like sugar or cellulose (wood) is Cn(H20)n. Not as reduced as methane, propane, or diesel, for instance, but certainly combustible, and the stuff on the right is anthropogenic when we are the source. Inexorable.

I've always wondered if the increased vapor in our atmosphere is solely due to warmer air sweeping across the oceans and anthropomorphic enhanced energy in the atmosphere, or compounded by the production of so much "anthropomorphic" water from our tail pipes and smoke stacks (even "clean" smoke stacks!!) :confused:
 
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LeeM

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The numbers in the bottom right of the combustion diagram should have 2O not 2C. Wonder how long its been that way in the source?
 

dubStrom

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The numbers in the bottom right of the combustion diagram should have 2O not 2C. Wonder how long its been that way in the source?
Good eye. Fixed. Clearly no Carbon in water! It's Elemental

Boring to some people, but the chemistry of burning is important. Our mitochondria do it all the time (making CO2 and water).

Here's a balance equation for combustion of carbs Cn(H2O)n. Same products if complete oxidation.
[/url]glucosecombustion by gs1100ghoot, on Flickr[/IMG]

This reaction happens in our body at an alarming rate!! Yup. We are little CO2 makers (and water). Ever wonder why you have to get up in the middle of the night even if you drink no water or beer? Metabolic water!
 
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mr_y82

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To be clear, this is the same Germany that is home to the folks at Bosch and Volkswagen who knowingly cheated on emissions standards, correct?

Just want to clarify. ;)
Also want to add, that Germany is back peddling on the millions of immigrants it has let in and Merkel is in deep do do. ;) As a matter of fact, a few European Country's are now back peddling too but that's for a different thread.
Touche... to an extent... AFD IS in Parliament now, but I would say the government does not necessarily support or condone the decisions of all corporations! I stand by the statement that the comment I responded to was asinine, differences of opinion aside! This was well said:

The people at Bosch and VW involved in perpetrating dieselgate are NOT representative of your average German, or Bosch/VW employee for that matter.

If they were, would you still be driving a VW? Maybe. It happens to be a pretty good car:D:D

What is bad or wrong about setting goals to wean humans from fossil fuel powered ICEs? The physics behind global warming are sound, and the extraordinary speed of the climate change we are observing is ominous. Changes like this typically take thousands of years (except when a meteor hits the earth:eek:). This is happening in a few hundred years, uh, since we started liberating CO2, it turns out. Starting with coal... the industrial revolution.

Burning wood or coal for heat is essentially "free". But does that mean we should chop all the trees down or keep burning coal? Of course not. Frankly, reduced carbon sources we use for fuel out of convenience are excellent starting compounds for synthesis of natural products in our oxidizing environment. There is lots of energy stored in those hydrocarbons. And it was the plants and trees that created this oxidizing environment in the first place, creating an environment for animals (oxygen) !! If anything, we should be planting trees and plants as if our lives depended on it. Ya think?
I agree with all this... I always enjoyed Jeremy Clarkson AND thought his climate change denial was ludicrous. Not a bad goal to move away from the ICE, but those of us that have gotten used to the ICE experience will be hard to please with alternatives... I think we will do more good faster by focusing on getting the grid onto renewables, especially since that's where the charge for the electric cars comes from anyway. I don't remember the exact stats, but it seems like cars are responsible for 1/5th, or so, of greenhouse emissions. Electricity from fossil fuels, powering electric cars, does not solve the problem (not saying the ICE is helping, but I am attached to my cars... well then again I sold the Golf back to VW......). Sorry about the JSW!!! Cheers!

I see Mark_J beat me to that spiel about ECs...

Sunlight, wind, and geothermal energy are basically free as well. Thanks to progressive countries like Germany, the economics of those renewable energy sources are becoming favorable vs. traditionally cheap, carbon emitting energy sources like coal and oil. But change is difficult for some, even when it's in a positive direction.
Reminds me of Jay Leno saying electric cars are great so there will still be fuel left for motorheads and weekend fun.

Make Germany Great Again! Oh, wait a minute- scratch that. Carry on Germany. :D
Indeed, lol... reminded me of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bEVI5Kls_A
 

[486]

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To be clear, you do not just "fire up" a steam turbine system when demand is there. They are generally left "fired" on stand by, because you cannot boil water to make steam to turn the turbine with a flip of a switch.
Chances are they are running, burning fuel, boiling water, making steam, all the time... just not as much. That is often the problem with grids (as we have them now) and wind/solar hooked to them. In order to keep the line voltage constant, there has to be a backup ready to go much of the time.
One of the mods here is a power station manager, he can weigh in if he wants on the particulars.
pretty sure but going by memory, they've got NG fired turbine engine "peaking stations" just a gas generator and power turbine directly coupled to a generator, then they also use the exhaust heat from that to make steam to run a steam turbine because why not

"combined cycle" or something like that

ETA: oh wow there's another page I didn't see
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Reminds me of Jay Leno saying electric cars are great so there will still be fuel left for motorheads and weekend fun.
Yep, I agree. Same way I feel about people clustering to live in urban areas. Have at it, better for those of us that want to live in the sticks with no neighbors! :p
 

TomJD

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Some discussion above on what we use here in Missouri. The work horses are powered by steam produced from coal combustion boilers (4800 megawatts). There is also the nuclear plant (1200 megawatts) where the steam is produced from the heat generated by the nuclear reaction. Four hydro plants including Bagnell Dam can generate up to 800 megawatts but average output is about half that amount. Two boilers at Meramec use natural gas (250 megawatts) but they are seldom used because of high cost to operate. There is a 3 megawatt solar field in O'Fallon. There are 42 combustion turbine generators (CTG) scattered throughout Ameren's service territory. The size of these units varies from 43 to 134 megawatts. They only run as demand peaks above what can be supplied by nuclear, coal, and hydro. In addition to Ameren's generation there are other large electric power generation companies in Ameren's territory that sell electric to Ameren Distribution under various contractual agreements.
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The coal trains going to Labadie roll right behind my house. I think it may be a "siding" track, though, as it is rarely used and often they have coal cars parked there for says on end. Sometimes full, sometimes empty.
 

dubStrom

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The Bundesrat's resolution is directly aimed at influencing the EU in adopting the plan to phase out all new fossil fuel ICE auto sales. Chances are, it will happen, with possible exceptions for some emergency vehicles and of course, defense related vehicles and other exempt categories. Germany is the EU's most powerful member in economic scale, and political influence. This law will usher in a new era.

In adopting this resolution, those lawmakers are aiming to comply with the Paris Climate Agreement. Germany must reduce CO2 emissions by 95% by 2050, and they've made excellent progress with PV-based electricity production (though more annual solar exposure could not hurt that effort!). Unlike some other nations around the world (wink), Germans are on track to make real progress on fighting climate change.

Volkswagen has played an important role in spurring this "law". The NOx emission scandal is mentioned in most of the articles I've read on this topic. Interesting that VW had planned on using "clean diesel" technology to expand sales in NA, and the short-sighted EPA spoofing engineers have derailed that plan handily.
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The irony is that "cheating" diesels make LESS CO2.

However, I also think that any comparisons made to other countries needs to be put in context. Germany does not have the extreme temps that we see in areas of our country. So building a house in an efficient manner is easier, thus making it less energy dependent. Germans also seem to be OK with point-of-use water heaters, so taking short lukewarm showers is OK. A friend of mine (and who used to frequent here) who goes back and forth from Germany regularly said the thing she misses most is a long hot shower. :p

They also do not have the wide expanses of real estate to cover, and also do not support a giant military (thankfully).

I admire a lot of what the Germans have done, especially for the automotive world. But I do not think I'd want to live there.
 

dubStrom

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That IS ironic. And it's one of the reasons why I want to get a tune on my GSW, in particular. It is gutless in low rpm range, and impossibly long turbo lag which doesn't seem to spool up at all until rpms get going.

I finally got a 41mpg tank in the GSW (still under 3000 miles). Maybe the engine is loosening up a little bit. I have found that using higher rpm with mpg in the teens and 20s long enough to get up to speed or above, then dropping way back and milking it at 50-120mpg carefully works with this "fixed" ECU. The instantaneous readout mpg may not be accurate, but it does help me track fuel consumption. I am starting to see the potential of this engine (once I get a tune), and then I will be spewing less CO2.:rolleyes:
 
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timmyc4

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Let's see... First VW Says it's not going to sell Diesels anymore in the USA... (I'll call B.S. since they have the fix now for the Dieselgate buyback cars and they want (NEED) to recoup the money they spent buying them back by reselling them with HUGE incentives i.e. BUMPER to BUMPER Warranties added after factory warranty ends...
They are going to TELL you they will not make them any more as they want to SELL all the old stuff first.

Then German "Lawmakers" say they're gonna ban ICE's (which may be true in the politions utopian minds as they are letting, helping, promoting Muslims to INVADE their country INVITING Genocide by the name of "Diversity" on the German people).

Time for people with 1/2 a brain to wake up and quit listening to the B.S.
Add on top of that... they pull off Dieselgate, then we're supposed to believe them?
 

Lightflyer1

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The fix still doesn't even meet the standards for the original emissions levels. I don't see how that is going to get them to pass current and future requirements.

I bought a left over new 2015 Beetle, so I don't have to worry about which conspiracy theory may come true.
 

dubStrom

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Let's see... First VW Says it's not going to sell Diesels anymore in the USA... (I'll call B.S. since they have the fix now for the Dieselgate buyback cars and they want (NEED) to recoup the money they spent buying them back by reselling them with HUGE incentives i.e. BUMPER to BUMPER Warranties added after factory warranty ends...
They are going to TELL you they will not make them any more as they want to SELL all the old stuff first.

Then German "Lawmakers" say they're gonna ban ICE's (which may be true in the politions utopian minds as they are letting, helping, promoting Muslims to INVADE their country INVITING Genocide by the name of "Diversity" on the German people).

Time for people with 1/2 a brain to wake up and quit listening to the B.S.
Add on top of that... they pull off Dieselgate, then we're supposed to believe them?
What BS? and Who's "they" ? FYI, the engineers at Bosch and Volkswagen are not the same people as the representatives in Bundesrat. And by the way... do not expect any more new diesel Volkswagens in the USA. Really, it is not a conspiracy. And no, it is NOT a bumper to bumper warantee. Who told you that?? Genocide? No genocide happening or even on the horizon in Germany. What are you talking about?

And, the paultry 2015 fixed model sales can't possibly make back the money lost in the buyback of 2010 to 2015. Not even close. I am certainly glad they decided to sell them when EPA gave them the green light!! I bought one, and it has and extended emissions systems warantee.

If by "they", you mean VAG marketing, then yes, you can believe them when they say no more diesel cars. Selling diesel cars in the US is not possible anymore. VW can't meet the emissions and dieselgate has tainted the waters. They know it.
 
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