German Lawmakers Ban Internal Combustion Engines by 2030

[Rembrant]

Ditto. CARB has been trying to ban ICE vehicles in favor of electric for over 20 some years and hasn't been able to get a mainstream, affordable one yet. For an EVs to fully replace the ICE passenger vehicles, they need to do the following:

1. Drive an absolute minimum of 300 miles on a full charge;
2. Recharge to 100% in less than 10 minutes, preferably 5;
3. Cost no more than $25,000;
4. Come in ALL sizes from sub-compacts to luxury sedans, pickups, vans, SUVs, sports cars, motorcycles, etc.

All that said however, if ANYBODY can do the above, it'd be the Germans.

All good points, but don't forget how important the infrastructure would be to handle mass sales of all these EV's. Infrastructure, and power generation capabilities. In order for EV's to become mainstream, there's going to have to be charging stations everywhere....and I mean EVERYWHERE to the point we're all tripping over them.

Honda gave the Civic GX a pretty good go...many years, and in the end they gave up due to lack of infrastructure. The cars, even if loved by all are no good to anybody without convenient places to fill their tanks (errr...batteries?).

 

[romad]

All good points, but don't forget how important the infrastructure would be to handle mass sales of all these EV's. Infrastructure, and power generation capabilities. In order for EV's to become mainstream, there's going to have to be charging stations everywhere....and I mean EVERYWHERE to the point we're all tripping over them.

Honda gave the Civic GX a pretty good go...many years, and in the end they gave up due to lack of infrastructure. The cars, even if loved by all are no good to anybody without convenient places to fill their tanks (errr...batteries?).

Good points, Rembrant. So good in fact that I added a link to your post as requirement #5!

Maybe if every gasoline station replaced at least one GASOLINE pump with a charging station...

 

[rwolff]

California tried ramming EVs down their residents' throats a few years back.

Some would say that a different, lower, orifice was involved.

 

[Steve Addy]

I'd be surprised if this regime survives to implement that anyway. They've got bigger problems than IC engines.

I would tend to agree with this. Despite the fact that the Bundesrat has no power and this is basically a symbolic move which will likely be shelved as Germany now undertakes to correct their immigration problem.

Lunacy, just pure lunacy.

clearly a joke. never gonna happen anytime soon.

The thing to watch for here is that these are trial balloons that are put out there to see how the public will react, and right now Germany is the current conduit for these 'climate change' initiatives. It's similar to all the trial balloons we're getting from the EU and the US from 'alleged' experts about why we have to ban cash in favor of electronic transactions.

These calls from experts will continue to come until either the public puts the nonsense to rest or our representatives in DC decide that they need to do it and ban cash. It's akin to the banning of gold during the depression, they did it to fleece the population and dramatically devalue the dollar in one swoop.

At this point it's something to keep an eye on, you know someone in the political system here will start to talk about the need to ban ICE vehicles in the US. That's the time to worry.

Steve

 

[flee]

(edit)
These calls from experts will continue to come until either the public puts the nonsense to rest or our representatives in DC decide that they need to do it and ban cash.(edit)

The nonsense will be put to rest in about 11 days...

 

[jrm]

everyone forgets about hydrogen internal combustion- its a real thing with zero emissions

 

[GoFaster]

everyone forgets about hydrogen internal combustion- its a real thing with zero emissions

No, it's not, and it's an even poorer idea (less efficient) than using hydrogen in fuel cells.

Hydrogen used in an internal combustion engine is still subject to production of NOx as a result of high combustion temperature. Hydrogen has an even higher combustion temperature than most hydrocarbons do (worse for NOx) and the speed of combustion is extremely high and almost uncontrollable. Hydrogen has a poor antiknock rating as a result. It is not a good fuel for a piston engine. It can be done ... it has been done ... but that doesn't make it a good idea.

If you're going to have hydrogen ... you use a fuel cell to make electricity from it. THAT is not subject to NOx emissions because it is not a high-temperature combustion process. And it's more efficient than a spark-ignition piston engine.

 

[LarBear]

It must be great to live in a state where a 200 mile trip is considered a long one, not in Montana, TX, other western states where the place you're going is over 200 miles away, and more than likely 300 to 400 miles or more. There aren't towns in between a lot of times either. A rapidly replaceable battery, far more likely than one that recharges rapidly I think, is going to have a service charge for the replacement labor which will likely not be inexpensive. The thought of having a battery light the car on fire because of improper installation would likely require special service people to do the work.

Hydrogen power sounds really great, and there's a lot of it around too. The only problem is that it tends to react with a lot of other elements and requires likely more energy to get it split from what it's attached to than it will produce so it's not exactly a free ride either.

I'm sure some bright folks will come up with something that will be economical, practical, and affordable in the future. The ICE wasn't mandated by some government geniuses, and I'm sure whatever replaces it won't be either. I'll likely be long gone when it happens, but I hope for all you puppies out there that it's lovely.

 

[oilhammer]

My cars already burn hydrogen. They just have to carry along a bunch of carbon to keep it stable.

 

[romad]

It must be great to live in a state where a 200 mile trip is considered a long one, not in Montana, TX, other western states where the place you're going is over 200 miles away, and more than likely 300 to 400 miles or more. There aren't towns in between a lot of times either. A rapidly replaceable battery, far more likely than one that recharges rapidly I think, is going to have a service charge for the replacement labor which will likely not be inexpensive. The thought of having a battery light the car on fire because of improper installation would likely require special service people to do the work.

Hydrogen power sounds really great, and there's a lot of it around too. The only problem is that it tends to react with a lot of other elements and requires likely more energy to get it split from what it's attached to than it will produce so it's not exactly a free ride either.

I'm sure some bright folks will come up with something that will be economical, practical, and affordable in the future. The ICE wasn't mandated by some government geniuses, and I'm sure whatever replaces it won't be either. I'll likely be long gone when it happens, but I hope for all you puppies out there that it's lovely.

A couple of comments:

20 - 30 years ago at one of the colleges down in Southern California, engineering students built and demonstrated a car that ran on Hydrogen. IIRC, the Hydrogen was stored in some solid form that released the gas when heated, rather than in a compressed or liquid state. I don't recall if the engine was fuel cell driven or another way, but I do recall that the ONLY "emission" was water vapor.

The reason the ICE wasn't mandated by some government bureaucrats was because at that time the government followed the Constitution which has never given any power to determine what technology would be allowed. The closest it had ever gotten to that was the railroads where the construction was incentivized via the land grant process. The government never mandated use of wood over coal technology, use of steam over ICE technology, or vice versa. They knew it would be unconstitutional to try to do so.

 

[TwinTurboKen]

A couple of comments:

20 - 30 years ago at one of the colleges down in Southern California, engineering students built and demonstrated a car that ran on Hydrogen. IIRC, the Hydrogen was stored in some solid form that released the gas when heated, rather than in a compressed or liquid state. I don't recall if the engine was fuel cell driven or another way, but I do recall that the ONLY "emission" was water vapor.

The reason the ICE wasn't mandated by some government bureaucrats was because at that time the government followed the Constitution which has never given any power to determine what technology would be allowed. The closest it had ever gotten to that was the railroads where the construction was incentivized via the land grant process. The government never mandated use of wood over coal technology, use of steam over ICE technology, or vice versa. They knew it would be unconstitutional to try to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfBdPKxk35k

 

[romad]

Yep, that sounds similar to what the college students did. Thanks for the video link.

 

[TomB]

When politicians ban or require something by a date fourteen years in the future it's clear they aren't sincere but only pandering to voters.

Pander? How about representing?

Well who else should they 'pander' to?

German lawmakers take their responsibility to their constituents a lot more seriously that US lawmakers.

 

[GoFaster]

You can vote that the sky is purple with pink polka dots, and politicians can order it to be so, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

 

[romad]

CARB tried several years ago to get ICE vehicles banned by now; their latest target date is 2030.

 

[TDIDaveNH]

The nonsense will be put to rest in about 11 days...

...Sure was

 

[RabbitGTI]

CARB tried several years ago to get ICE vehicles banned by now; their latest target date is 2030.

CARB can blow me.

 

[HBarlow]

You can vote that the sky is purple with pink polka dots, and politicians can order it to be so, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Yes, that's the bottom line that some can never understand. We humans were born free with individual rights, the ability to reason and decide for ourselves, and most of us will continue to claim, defend, and exercise those rights and freedoms.

 

[romad]

CARB can blow me.

You should be safe as long as Wisconsin doesn't adopt CARB's standards and rules.

What I find interesting is this plan appears to be in direct violation of the U.S. Constitution since California will STILL have to allow vehicles from other states to drive in and through which means there will still have to be ICE fuels available. What about aircraft, marine vehicles, trains, etc. as they all use ICE to either power the vehicle or generate electrical power to drive the vehicle? Of course, California has a solid track record of violating/ignoring the Constitution's prohibitions, so they'll try to ignore the ones on interstate commerce.

 

[kjclow]

CARB also has a written track record of ignoring common solutions and write regulations based on unrealistic acheivements.

 

[SilverGhost]

Well, add France, China, UK, and Netherlands to the list of countries banning internal combustion car new sales.

France

China

UK (aka England)

Netherlands

Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Jason

 

[romad]

The silver lining will be more oil for these United States!

 

[RabbitGTI]

ICE engines with hybrid systems are the future. Standalone ICE might get banned, but ICE hybrids never will.

 

[kjclow]

One of the English economist on NPR said that if Great Britain does ban the ICE engines, it will bring their economy to a stand still. Not sure what his explanation was though.

 

[oilhammer]

One of the English economist on NPR said that if Great Britain does ban the ICE engines, it will bring their economy to a stand still. Not sure what his explanation was though.

Ever seen the Top Gear episode highlighting all the stuff built there? I think one out of every four engines Ford builds is assembled in the UK. VAG, Honda, Toyota, and others have plants there too.

So yes, it could indeed hamper their economy. Although that does not mean they could not build stuff and export it, but where does it end?

 

[flee]

Makes me wonder what happened to all the horseshoe factories, too!

 

[oilhammer]

Makes me wonder what happened to all the horseshoe factories, too!

They started making car parts.

 

[turbobrick240]

Can't stop the tide. When the cost per mile becomes 4-5x cheaper for EV's vs. ICE only vehicles nationwide.....
That may be 10-15 years out, but I'll live to see the transition.

 

[kjclow]

Ever seen the Top Gear episode highlighting all the stuff built there? I think one out of every four engines Ford builds is assembled in the UK. VAG, Honda, Toyota, and others have plants there too.

So yes, it could indeed hamper their economy. Although that does not mean they could not build stuff and export it, but where does it end?

I didn't realize their economy was still tied that closely to the automotive industry. Thanks

 

[romad]

Can't stop the tide. When the cost per mile becomes 4-5x cheaper for EV's vs. ICE only vehicles nationwide.....
That may be 10-15 years out, but I'll live to see the transition.

Only when an EV can go 300 miles on a charge and recharge to 100% in 10 minutes or less. EV's are niche vehicles good for local in-town and short distance trips only. Oh, there will be a few longer distance ones like the Tesla S but they will be pretty much restricted to Interstate routs between major cities where Tesla has Supercharger stations.

European nations don't have the long distances that Canada and these United States have plus they were able to completely rebuild their rail infrastructure after World War II so EVs will have a larger market base.