German Lawmakers Ban Internal Combustion Engines by 2030

HBarlow

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When politicians ban or require something by a date fourteen years in the future it's clear they aren't sincere but only pandering to voters.
 

kjclow

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14 years to stop production of ICE vehicles? I don't see that battery technology will advance enough to make that happen.
 

c-wagen

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Battery technology can advance, but that does not mean it wont be more expensive than ICEs... Also this will force companies to retool...which can take time.
 
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kjclow

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I'm not saying that the battery technology won't advance, just that it doesn't look like it will advance enough to satisfy the North American buying public. The ideal is something that will run at least 200 miles a charge, regardless of weather, and be able to fully recharge in less than 15 minutes. Maybe it will be a swappable battery pack or a new battery chemistry but if it takes longer than a typical fuel stop, the public won't accept it.

Anyone who drives more than three hours without a stop, to at least get out of the car and wake up, is really putting their life and ours at risk.
 

flee

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When politicians ban or require something by a date fourteen years in the future it's clear they aren't sincere but only pandering to voters.
Actually, in this case, it's called 'planning'. It could also be called facing reality.

Germany lacks much oil but is adding renewable energy at a very fast pace.

Germany is the economic engine powering Europe because of long term planning
that has allowed companies there to build some of the best products on Earth
while adhering to some of the tightest environmental standards anywhere.

Germany does this while providing free education and health care for it's people
and accepting many millions of refugees from eastern Europe and beyond.
Not to mention, the trains run on time and there are a lot of them, too.

Oh yeah, the article states that it is a ban on new IC engines, so I'd guess
there will be a lot of well-maintained old ones on the road for many more years.
 

Jimmy Coconuts

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The article states that it is a ban on new IC engines, so I'd guess there will be a lot of well-maintained old ones on the road for many more years.
Yup, I'm picturing all those "classic cars" in Cuba...
 

HBarlow

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Actually, in this case, it's called 'planning'. It could also be called facing reality.

Germany lacks much oil but is adding renewable energy at a very fast pace.

Germany is the economic engine powering Europe because of long term planning
that has allowed companies there to build some of the best products on Earth
while adhering to some of the tightest environmental standards anywhere.

Germany does this while providing free education and health care for it's people
and accepting many millions of refugees from eastern Europe and beyond.
Not to mention, the trains run on time and there are a lot of them, too.

Oh yeah, the article states that it is a ban on new IC engines, so I'd guess
there will be a lot of well-maintained old ones on the road for many more years.
I have no interest whatsoever in your wacko politics. Save it for someone else with their head in the clouds.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
California tried ramming EVs down their residents' throats a few years back. They mandated every manufacturer that was going to sell new vehicles in that state had to sell a certain percentage of EVs. It was a big deal in the trade magazines, because there is always the fear that a lot of their rules and regulations, like George Clooney's smug cloud, will drift east and become an issue for the rest of us. While sometimes this does happen, thankfully the EV nonsense fizzled pretty quickly.

It did give Californians access to hastily designed and built electric versions of Chevrolet S10s, Ford Rangers, Toyota RAV4, and others. These were of course mostly sold to gov't agencies on taxpayers dimes and I would imagine hardly any are still in use today (although the ICE version of all of these could easily still be in use, many probably are :rolleyes: ).

When the manufacturers realized that nobody was going to guy them, they just decided they would not sell cars in California. Kind of like when the CARB folks would not let Volkswagen sell new TDIs there. So, people that wanted them just paid MORE to buy "used" ones, thus not only thwarting the rules, but also robbing California of sales tax and other dealer revenue.

CARB caved, and in one magazine there was a nice article about an apology from them for such a bonehead move that clearly was doomed to failure. However, the idea was certainly sound. They just needed a little better planning, and really more time for technology to mature. California is WAY behind Germany on that front, in that Germans already tend to buy more economical cars to begin with, and do not have the huge fleet of old cars on the road. SoCal is chock full of old (and I mean OLD, pre-emission control of any kind) cars. If nothing rusts out, and you can still get parts for them, and you do not crash them....
 
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LogicBomb

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SoCal is chock full of old (and I mean OLD, pre-emission control of any kind) cars. If nothing rusts out, and you can still get parts for them, and you do not crash them....

Well there's more at play than just "what doesn't rust out", all Pre 75 vehicles are SMOG exempted, thus there's a huge user base that modifies vehicles, and can only do so, legally without paying stupid money for CARB EO parts, with a smog exempt vehicle. Even I myself have recently joined this crowd in my Search for a pre-74 BMW 2002.

But I rarely see such cars daily driven on the road. Most are weekend or show cruisers.
 

GoFaster

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I actually think that by 2030, EVs or strong hybrids (plug-in like Volt, BMW i3-Rex) will account for a majority of sales. I think that by 2030, there will be fast-charging stations EVERYwhere, and range anxiety will be a thing of the past except possibly in some limited applications (e.g. travel to the Yukon and Nunavut - unlikely to be many charging stations there). Conventional combustion-engine vehicles with no electric drive at all will be a minority of sales.

I'm not saying that by 2030 there will be hardly any combustion-engine vehicles ... not at all ... only that SALES of them will be in the minority. It takes 15 - 20 years to turn over the vehicle fleet. With the average age of a vehicle on the roads being more than 10 years, it's still going to be quite a while after that before we need every single parking space to have a charging connector and figure out how every apartment building and every urban street in areas without garages or driveways has to be able to charge vehicles up.

But I would rather that this technological shift come on its own merits, instead of being rammed down our throats.
 

flee

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This didn't come from a "lawmaker", it came from an advocacy group with no authority.
The Bundesrat is roughly akin to our U.S. Senate and legislates beside the
Bundestag which is somewhat like our U.S. House of Representatives.
 

Jetta SS

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I'd be surprised if this regime survives to implement that anyway. They've got bigger problems than IC engines.
 

romad

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When politicians ban or require something by a date fourteen years in the future it's clear they aren't sincere but only pandering to voters.
Ditto. CARB has been trying to ban ICE vehicles in favor of electric for over 20 some years and hasn't been able to get a mainstream, affordable one yet. For an EVs to fully replace the ICE passenger vehicles, they need to do the following:

1. Drive an absolute minimum of 300 miles on a full charge;
2. Recharge to 100% in less than 10 minutes, preferably 5;
3. Cost no more than $25,000;
4. Come in ALL sizes from sub-compacts to luxury sedans, pickups, vans, SUVs, sports cars, motorcycles, etc.
5. See Rembrant's post #31 below.

All that said however, if ANYBODY can do the above, it'd be the Germans.
 
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drywaller

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I'm not saying that the battery technology won't advance, just that it doesn't look like it will advance enough to satisfy the North American buying public. The ideal is something that will run at least 200 miles a charge, regardless of weather, and be able to fully recharge in less than 15 minutes. Maybe it will be a swappable battery pack or a new battery chemistry but if it takes longer than a typical fuel stop, the public won't accept it.

Anyone who drives more than three hours without a stop, to at least get out of the car and wake up, is really putting their life and ours at risk.
Anyone? Or did you mean to say many?
I as well as millions of others drive for hours on end. 4-5 is routine. Sometimes longer.
 

drywaller

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Actually, in this case, it's called 'planning'. It could also be called facing reality.

Germany lacks much oil but is adding renewable energy at a very fast pace.

Germany is the economic engine powering Europe because of long term planning
that has allowed companies there to build some of the best products on Earth
while adhering to some of the tightest environmental standards anywhere.

Germany does this while providing free education and health care for it's people
and accepting many millions of refugees from eastern Europe and beyond.
Not to mention, the trains run on time and there are a lot of them, too.

Oh yeah, the article states that it is a ban on new IC engines, so I'd guess
there will be a lot of well-maintained old ones on the road for many more years.
Dont mean to politicize your post but I for one would not cite Germany's willingness to accept refugees as one of the best moves for Germany.
Seems as of late Europe has seen mucho problems at the hands of these refugees.
I have a very good friend that used to travel all over Europe. She, as of late has had to plan her trips to avoid many of the areas where refugees are now living.
Aside from that your post is spot on.
 

turbobrick240

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Really?
On top gear a while back they were mostly soviet gasoline engines like moskvich and volga.[/QUOTE. ]
I just watched a PBS program about Cuba that delved pretty heavily into the auto scene. One guy was explaining that the entire drivetrain on his '50's Chevy was Soviet. I can't imagine not having a/c in a car in Cuba.
The Germans, Swedes, and basically all of Europe are pretty far advanced from the U.S. in regards to energy conservation and efficiency. It seems the EV technology is advancing pretty rapidly, so who knows, I may be driving one myself in a decade or so.
 

kjclow

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Our corporate policy is no more than two hours without a break. I try to do that in my family trips too. Adds a little time but it is not as taxing. Plus I find that anymore than two hours and my mind starts drifting.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Really?
On top gear a while back they were mostly soviet gasoline engines like moskvich and volga.
Yes, really. Just watched the miniseries Cuban Chrome. Recent, too (like last year). One of the main stories they were following was an older man working to "restore" his 1951 Oldsmobile so he could get in the coveted car club. He was using what looked to be a Mazda or Mitsubishi inline SOHC belt driven 4 cyl diesel bolted to a manual gearbox. There were lots of cars like that.

Some do still try and keep the old original gas (usually V8) engines alive, but as another story showed parts are very difficult to come by. What they have to work with is very little. Guy waited for months to have the town's only welder do some work to his car's frame in order to fit a steering box from something else on there, and the welder had to wait until he had welding wire, and even then they had to work quickly while the electric grid was still functional as power outages are common.

Really good series, I encourage any car lovers to check it out.
 
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