German court considers first diesel driving ban on an autobahn

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
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May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Singling out diesels for punishment not ever given to the many gasoline powered offerings caught doing similar or worse over the years sure as h3ll does make this entire thing a political exercise in the US at least!!!
Bingo, there has been a political agenda against diesels in the US and its obvious. The whole trucking industry has basically been destroyed due to ridiculous standards.

A Ford Raptor is legal but my TDI isn't? Something does not add up there.
 

rotarykid

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Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
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1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
overregulation of light duty autoclass diesels not sold in~35years,yeah non-political

Every last car makes, all of them that sells cars/suv's gasoline-powered in the US has been caught programming specifically to pass the bench test while also programming the car with gearing, mucking with shift points, mucking with fuel limits to make the vehicle more drivable in the real world. They all have been caught exceeding bench limits in real-world driving......

GM Ford & Chrysler have all been caught a few times doing these many different models over the years, were they required to buy back these cars as VWAG has been forced to buy back cars?????.....NO!.....

The worse any of these other manufacturers got for ignoring in law limits on gasoline powered offerings was a slap on the wrist fine, no buy backs, most not even a detune of any sort.....

While diesel's were specifically singled out to make example of to scare all manufacturer into thinking twice or not even trying to meet/pass these stupid not tied to any reality over regulations of vehicle emissions on vehicles not sold here in any numbers since 1983 MY...!!!!!...

If that is not political, maybe I misread the definition of a political action....LOL...
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
Northern MD (HAGERBUSH)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress)
The whole trucking industry has basically been destroyed due to ridiculous standards.
My uncle is a trucker, started with mayflower, now with united.
I talked to him yesterday and brought this up to him. His stance is that its the best thing since sliced bread. His new truck that has MANDATORY upgrades in fuel usage and what not, used 4x less fuel in all operations. He is a firm advocate for train systems. His point to me was that as the trucking industry gets slammed with this diesel gate business, trains will pick up the slack.
In reality, Trucking as ruined its self, the train and local trucking is obvious, but we as consumers must have 2 day prime shipping on all our crap. Remember the days of 6 to 8 weeks for anything you order? Yea.. I do
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
Every - (blah blah) - LOL...
RK, I do see the corruption and outright dishonesty of the players in the automotive
emissions business - it's a billion dollar game.
What I don't see is how it is political to enforce standards that were shaped over
decades and multiple administrations. Grabbing the low-hanging fruit first may not
seem fair but nothing gets changed overnight. Where I live the quality of air (and life)
has improved steadily over the years since the first emissions controls were installed.
That's despite a tripling of vehicle-miles driven over the same period. I'll take it, thanks.
 

tikal

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Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
I would venture to say that most of of the membership of TDIClub would think that VW got what it deserves (and perhaps for some people a little bit on the lenient side in terms of lack of jail time for higher/highest VW executives).

What probably the same group of folks are saying is that the people/entities that set the pollution standards in the US specifically for gasoline and gasoline-hybrids engines are not being honest and scientific to force the automotive industry to reduce some the following pollutants from gasoline combustion in a manner proportional to their vehicle numbers per capita:

* Particulate matter or PM from the gasoline (yes it is produced from gasoline and it contributes to bad air quality in places like Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego, New York and other large metropolitan areas).

* Volatile organic compounds or VOA (same issue from gasoline passenger vehicles in places like Los Angeles, etc.)

* Other ozone contributing pollutants from gasoline

Yes the cost of a gasoline powered passenger vehicles will go up if we want to reduce substantially PM, VOA and other pollutants from gasoline combustion and clean the air of Los Angeles, Sacramento, New York and other metropolitan areas of the US.

The future will be brighter with emission equipment to meaningfully reduce PM, VOA and other pollutants from gasoline powered passenger vehicles.
 

Lightflyer1

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Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I would venture to say that most of of the membership of TDIClub would think that VW got what it deserves (and perhaps for some people a little bit on the lenient side in terms of lack of jail time for higher/highest VW executives).
I personally think it was all overblown and that they got really screwed over this. Yes they lied and broke some regulations and released some tiny (by comparison) extra pollutants into the air, but in the big scheme of things the issue was tiny. I have seen and read of other lawbreakers committing worse crimes than this getting off way easier. But VW has big money in their pockets and not a US company, so make an example out of them. Even breaking the emissions rules the cars were much cleaner than many, many others out there. It also isn't like they did it all the time. Only under certain circumstances did they over pollute by much. In the big scheme of things much more pollution was caused by scrapping and crushing cars than was generated by the cheat in the first place, in my opinion.

Wasn't there a tuner out there who got caught and prosecuted but they all but reduced the fine to next to nothing due to the company claiming they would be bankrupt. This may be the one:

http://www.thedrive.com/news/23833/...roducing-and-selling-emissions-defeat-devices

I didn't hear all the complaining and whining and gnashing of teeth and money grubbing as in dieselgate. They were probably even worse. Probably a ton of owners even defending them instead of condemning them.
 

tikal

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Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Unfortunately in the US (I am not sure in Europe) the diesels not sold are mostly substituted by much less efficient gasoline vehicles that offer somewhat comparable torque (maybe). Even the most touted Jetta with the 1.4 TSI engine is averaging around 35 MPG (2017 year, 34.86 to be exact by Fuelly.com, almost 18% less than the 2015 TDI model). Plus with the payback money people are most likely buying more gasoline SUVs which have even worse efficiency than sedans!

As long as the prices of fuel are relatively low in the US, the national fleet MPG average for private passengers vehicles is not going to move much in the + direction no matter how much people in this forum or other forums concerned with transportation efficiency would wish so.
 

atc98002

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Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Location
Auburn WA
TDI
2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
I had a rental Jetta in 2017 for about a month, long enough to track the MPG. I was driving in northern VA. My hotel was in Chantilly, and I had to either drive to the Metro station in Vienna or to a facility out in Vint Hill, which was opposite direction of rush hour traffic. Calculated MPG while I had it was about 38 MPG, and that was not all smooth freeway driving. I was very impressed with it. I can't say if it was the 1.4 or 1.8L engine. But coming from my TDI Passat less than a year prior, I could have been satisfied with the engine. Not the car, because it was a typical rental trim. But in an SEL Premium trim I could have lived with it. Almost as torque-y as I remember the Passat, and almost identical MPG that I had been getting here in the Seattle area. Maybe the Passat would have done even better under the same driving conditions. But for a gas engine, I was impressed.
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
Unfortunately in the US (I am not sure in Europe) the diesels not sold are mostly substituted by much less efficient gasoline vehicles that offer somewhat comparable torque (maybe). Even the most touted Jetta with the 1.4 TSI engine is averaging around 35 MPG (2017 year, 34.86 to be exact by Fuelly.com, almost 18% less than the 2015 TDI model). Plus with the payback money people are most likely buying more gasoline SUVs which have even worse efficiency than sedans!
As long as the prices of fuel are relatively low in the US, the national fleet MPG average for private passengers vehicles is not going to move much in the + direction no matter how much people in this forum or other forums concerned with transportation efficiency would wish so.
This 18% 'less' MPG reflects the difference in the energy density of diesel vs gas.
The two engines are roughly equivalent in converting carbon bonds to usable energy.
That doesn't make gasoline engines less efficient, rather it illustrates how efficient
they have now become. Coupled with the realistic pricing of the two fuels, gasoline
can now compete on an equal footing with diesel at least in lightweight passenger cars.
Now if the car companies could just make the fuel tanks a bit bigger...
 

turbocharged798

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May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
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99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Problem is diesel efficiency went down and gas efficiency went up. 10-15 years ago, DI diesels were about 30-50% better in MPG. Huge difference. Now with DI gassers and diesel emission requirements that spread has gone down significantly.

A 2000 Jetta gasser got high 20's for MPG. A 2000 Jetta TDI got low 50's with more power. Think about that.
 

turbobrick240

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Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Problem is diesel efficiency went down and gas efficiency went up. 10-15 years ago, DI diesels were about 30-50% better in MPG. Huge difference. Now with DI gassers and diesel emission requirements that spread has gone down significantly.

A 2000 Jetta gasser got high 20's for MPG. A 2000 Jetta TDI got low 50's with more power. Think about that.
Less power, more torque- in stock format anyhow. Bottom line is all ICE are horribly inefficient, polluting, and use unsustainable fossil fuels. Thank goodness better options are coming to market.
 

tikal

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Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
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2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
This 18% 'less' MPG reflects the difference in the energy density of diesel vs gas.
The two engines are roughly equivalent in converting carbon bonds to usable energy.
That doesn't make gasoline engines less efficient, rather it illustrates how efficient
they have now become. Coupled with the realistic pricing of the two fuels, gasoline
can now compete on an equal footing with diesel at least in lightweight passenger cars.
Now if the car companies could just make the fuel tanks a bit bigger...
Thanks for your input flee. The following comes to mind:

1) See post # 72 regarding the differences in emission equipment required by United States Government law for gasoline passenger vehicles vs. light duty diesel passenger vehicles. Consequently it is not a fair comparison at the moment from this perspective.

2) The efficiency gap between gasoline and diesel passenger vehicles might be narrowing for smaller sedan vehicles that Americans have been abandoning since the 1990s (or even before) in exchange for larger, heavier, less aerodynamic gasoline powered SUVs and trucks with AWD (or similar) as daily drivers. I would not be surprised to see these modern gasoline SUVs/trucks struggling to close the efficiency gap in a noticeable way with respect to their light duty diesel counterparts (I understand not all the models are available in diesel worldwide). And this is without a gas particle filter (GPF) and other emission equipment comparable to the ones in a modern light duty diesel.

3) For those concerned with local air quality please take a look at Argonne National Labs GREET model (https://greet.es.anl.gov/) which stands for The Greenhouse gases, Regulated Emissions, and Energy use in Transportation Mode. As previous graphs posted in TDIClub forums, the GREET model shows that only electrical passenger vehicles getting their electricity from renewable sources and natural gas have a smaller environmental/health costs than modern diesel passenger vehicles (normalized per mile driven).

There might be other factors to consider such flammable (gasoline) vs combustible (diesel) safety differences in the scenario of a collision, etc.

* Gasoline vs Diesel: do your own independent investigation, the GREET model is becoming more user friendly too :)

* Electrical vehicles (EVs) in the next ten (10 years) and beyond in the United States will gather substantial rapid momentum:
1) If the cost of fossil fuels at the pump goes considerable higher (for whatever reason(s))
2) The Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards (or similar) stay in place or get tighten further
3) The cost of an average EV with ~ 300 mile range (averaged during the ownership of the vehicle) gets closer to a deal-braker for the average American consumer to buy it
4) The charging infrastructure to support EVs expands considerably outside large metropolitan areas
5) Perhaps other factors?
 
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Lightflyer1

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Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
A 2000 Jetta gasser got high 20's for MPG. A 2000 Jetta TDI got low 50's with more power. Think about that.
Neither were saddled with the emissions required today. That is where the majority of the loss occurs. At least for diesels. Gas doesn't have to meet the same standards or saddled with the same efficiency sucking equipment. People that have deleted and tuned report much better economy. The cost of diesel vs gas right now is driving some away. Gas here in the mid $1.70 and diesel at mid $2.50. That alone is causing the exodus from diesel to gas unless someone specifically needs a diesel or just wants one badly instead of gas.
 
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