German court considers first diesel driving ban on an autobahn

eddie_1

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There's >40GWh of capacity available off-peak everyday. The average daily round-trip commute is ~34km which would require ~7kWh of energy. So the German grid without any upgrades can easily support >5M EVs. Vastly more with smart charging.
You have to remember most of the population don't live in Single Family Homes with a nice driveway to park and charge. The population density is in the big cities and like the Ruhr region which is one of the most densely populated in the world. Most people live in multiple family buildings (Mehrfamilienhäuser) or Apartment Bldgs. Cars are parked in communal lots or scattered all over the streets. Right now my colleague would like to buy some VW electro-UP but he wouldn't be able to get a cable to it from where he lives in the Bldg. Charging locations are few and far between.

Nice data plots, thanks, but it would need more specific load flow analysis to the specific population density areas (hot spots) to see if power can be delivered.
 

nwdiver

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Charging locations are few and far between.
I doesn't take much. Especially in Europe where standard voltage is 230v. To get the average required energy of 7kWh over an 8 hour window is 875w or <4A. Some areas have been retrofitting street lamps as charging points since they were designed for ~200w sodium lamps but have been converted to 15w LEDs. Every 4 converted lamps now leaves enough spare ampacity to charge an EV.

The grid will be fine; And charging points are super easy to install.
 

eddie_1

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I doesn't take much. Especially in Europe where standard voltage is 230v. To get the average required energy of 7kWh over an 8 hour window is 875w or <4A. Some areas have been retrofitting street lamps as charging points since they were designed for ~200w sodium lamps but have been converted to 15w LEDs. Every 4 converted lamps now leaves enough spare ampacity to charge an EV.
The grid will be fine; And charging points are super easy to install.
An actual case is someone I know who has a Smart EV. It takes about 5 hours to charge to about 12kWh. In fact homes get 3 phase but the Smart can only take single phase. Then they got a special wall unit installed from Mercedes to optimize the single phase. It improved the time maybe an hour. It has a range on paper of about 150Kms but with cold weather and heating maybe 80Kms. Already got stuck a couple of times. It's ok for shopping and going to work. This is Autobahn country. It's a hard sell. Have you seen the density of charging places in Holland vs Germany?

https://www.plugsurfing.com/de/privatkunden/ladestations-karte.html
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The temp extremes are why a local company ditched their EV Focus fleet. If it was above 75, or below 35, their range was effectively cut in half. So they had to have a regular car on stand-by for every EV they had, since the down time to charge them was greater than the time they were actually able to be used. They can "hot seat" the ones with engines, too. That is how they can pile 100k miles on a car in a year. It was a noble idea, but doomed to fail, because it makes no financial sense to have three electric Focuses licensed and insured to do the job that one gasoline fueled version can do.

I was actually shocked just how bad the range tanked at the temp extremes. Curious to see how the new electric Sprinter does (we won't get them here).
 

turbobrick240

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A whole lot of American iron in the form of Model 3's is about to hit European shores. Those will give Europeans a pretty good idea of what a quality EV can do. They certainly won't take 5 hours to charge 12 kWh.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I don't think there is a whole lot of "American iron" in those things. Never been under a 3, but the S underpinnings are all from somewhere else.... and none of it looked to be iron. :p I saw Canada, Germany, France, Spain, China, Italy, Mexico, and others.

Of course, this isn't really any different than any other "American" brand of car. Or any other brand for that matter.
 

eddie_1

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Just a colorful turn of phrase. Unlike the model S, the Model 3 is iron/steel rich. The last time this much American iron was headed for European shores they caught Rommel snoozing. :D
https://electrek.co/2017/12/05/tesla-linked-steel-factory-project-michigan/
Not sure how much German you can follow, but the national TV did a fairly negative piece on Tesla a few days ago. Maybe they were preparing people for the model 3. :) It was done by Southwest National TV, so probably pro Mercedes and a bit worried, but implied the big 3 in Germany will hit Tesla hard.

Essentially said the Tesla S was a German car.

Highlighted:
- Work practices. A guy who worked until he dropped in the production line and generally working on steroids.
- Californian style innovation. Paradox of brutal business environment and selling ideals of saving the planet.
- Tech, Engineers and Automation is from Germany.
- Low Transparency.
- Micro-management by Musk limiting growth.

Tesla unter Strom. 'Unter Strom' means Under Pressure but Strom is the word for current.
https://www.daserste.de/information/reportage-dokumentation/dokus/sendung/tesla-unter-strom-100.html
 

nwdiver

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An actual case is someone I know who has a Smart EV. It takes about 5 hours to charge to about 12kWh. In fact homes get 3 phase but the Smart can only take single phase. Then they got a special wall unit installed from Mercedes to optimize the single phase. It improved the time maybe an hour. It has a range on paper of about 150Kms but with cold weather and heating maybe 80Kms. Already got stuck a couple of times. It's ok for shopping and going to work. This is Autobahn country. It's a hard sell. Have you seen the density of charging places in Holland vs Germany?
https://www.plugsurfing.com/de/privatkunden/ladestations-karte.html
Pretty.... pretty big viability difference between an EV with <100km range and >400km range. 12kWh in 5 hours is more than sufficient for daily charging you don't need 3 phase charging 230v is fine. For long distance driving there are more than enough fast chargers in Europe.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Last summer one of our sales reps from a German supplier was in and we were talking about Tesla. He was totally negative. In his personal case (which is probably unusual) he lives in Belgium and has to travel to his employer in Germany periodically. The trip is well beyond the range of the best Tesla, even in temperate weather. Second, he said that many people are (perhaps justifiably) skeptical of both range and Tesla's ability to sustain high speeds on the autobahn, range notwithstanding. He joked about running at 200 kph for 3 hours. Probably isn't going to happen.

Admittedly this is a guy who sells parts for gasoline and diesel powered cars, so there's got to be some bias there. But he's also a reasonable person and I think may have reflected a lot of European's thinking about Tesla as a performance car. And keep in mind that cars manufactured in the US have never gotten very positive reviews in Europe. Tesla would have to overcome that bias, too.
 

turbobrick240

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If that salesman is driving at a sustained 125 mph for 3 hours straight, he must be a millionaire (fuel is not cheap in europe) with no concern for the environment. Honestly though, he has every right to feel threatened by the EV invasion.
 

nwdiver

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Then all your previous arguments about trickle charging don't hold.
???? How so? The AVERAGE daily use is ~7kWh. If you're traveling and need the extra range you're gonna be using a fast charger.
 

tikal

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No disagreements. There are probably more than one factor in North America leading to making the transition to EVs very slooooooooooooow!

I agree, but for slight different reasons. In North America, especially the western half, travel distances can often exceed the abilities of virtually all currently available EVs. Seattle to the nearest major metropolitan area (Portland) is reachable, but that's about it. Vancouver BC would be questionable, because of potentially long delays at the border. Spokane to the east is close to 300 miles. Nothing but a Tesla currently has that range.
And I can't even reach the California border, let alone actually make it to a major city, with any current EV. All of these can be reached with a gas powered car with no more than a 5 minute stop for fuel. And my former Passat TDI would have made it to San Francisco without stopping.
Of course, the argument can be made (and accurately) that the majority of people don't drive those kind of distances with regularity. For me, the longest distance that I might travel in a day is to go to my parents home. It's about 140 miles round trip, so there are EVs that can satisfy that distance. Can't charge at their place, so would need enough range for the round trip.
Yesterday I drove about 130 miles, all just on errands. A bit higher than my typical weekend day, but still common enough. So for me, I need (want) an EV with at least 200 real world mile range, meaning the heat or AC is running at maximum and typical traffic levels. VW might have one coming in the next year or so, so we'll just wait and see. I don't care for the Bolt, the Niro EV might not be large enough, and Tesla is more than I want to pay.
 

flee

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???? How so? The AVERAGE daily use is ~7kWh. If you're traveling and need the extra range you're gonna be using a fast charger.
Fortunately, no one reading (or writing) here will have the slightest impact on the
present or future adoption of the next new normal in transportation. The better and
ultimately cheaper technology will take over in its own time; resistance will be futile.
None of us need to worry any more about mending traces and forking hay.
If you think about it, generating and distributing incrementally more electricity over
time is a lot less complex than the infrastructure we have established to support our
internal combustion dream machines.
The fact that electric vehicles can already dominate certain short races is the icing.
 

eddie_1

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If that salesman is driving at a sustained 125 mph for 3 hours straight, he must be a millionaire (fuel is not cheap in europe) with no concern for the environment. Honestly though, he has every right to feel threatened by the EV invasion.
Almost all sales, marketing and application engineers in Germany, also other countries, drive a company car. They get a free fuel card and spend alot of time on the Autobahn.

In fact most of the better end cars are still bought in fleet sales for companies. Regular folks can't afford them. Then they can put about 50K kms a year on them.
 

turbobrick240

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Almost all sales, marketing and application engineers in Germany, also other countries, drive a company car. They get a free fuel card and spend alot of time on the Autobahn.
In fact most of the better end cars are still bought in fleet sales for companies. Regular folks can't afford them. Then they can put about 50K kms a year on them.
It sounds like the guy may have been half joking anyhow. I doubt there are even long enough stretches of unrestricted autobahn to allow for that sort of driving. Even where they are unrestricted, there is the expectation that driver's won't endanger the safety of other motorists. He could have made other superfluous arguments that these new fangled EV's lack the capabilities of a unimog, amphicar, or F16, but it's really just grasping at straws. Though, for a salesperson that spends all day driving around in their car, I can understand why range would be a concern.
 
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showdown 42

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I'd be for making the autobahns bike only all the time,maybe scooters during rush hour. ..Keep everyone close to home in tiptop health, no head on fatal crashes and a financial depression,so everyone has something to complain about. Greens can take credit for economy.
 

bmw

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I'd be for making the autobahns bike only all the time,maybe scooters during rush hour. ..Keep everyone close to home in tiptop health, no head on fatal crashes and a financial depression,so everyone has something to complain about. Greens can take credit for economy.
I can't imagine riding a bike on snow would be very safe lol
 

PC Passat

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Remember that it was Tesla that converted the first Smart Car to electric for the germans. This led to Mercedes investing in Tesla early on and according to Musk "They saved Tesla from going under very early on".
Tesla's at this point are probably not for the long haul salesmen or twenty-four hour service vehicles, but that is not what our highways are full of. I always thought that a Tdi wagon was the best salesman vehicle around. Just think if they reimbursed you for the miles based on averages!
Tesla just bought a high tech capacitor manufacture. Switching from batteries to capacitors could be a real game changer. I'm not so sure that this not the path VW is taking as well.
 

turbobrick240

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Teslas acquisition of Maxwell is pretty exciting. Hard to say if they were more interested in the ultracapacitors, dry electrode graphite batteries, or both. I don't think we'll see a switch to capacitors so much as a marriage of capacitors and batteries. Batteries have better overall energy density, and capacitors have better charge/discharge capabilities.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Teslas acquisition of Maxwell is pretty exciting. Hard to say if they were more interested in the ultracapacitors, dry electrode graphite batteries, or both. I don't think we'll see a switch to capacitors so much as a marriage of capacitors and batteries. Batteries have better overall energy density, and capacitors have better charge/discharge capabilities.
I think their interest is primarily in the electrode part of Maxwell. Capacitors have limited benefit in an EV, given their relatively low energy density.
 

wxman

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Thank you for that link.

It still doesn't explain why the EU adopted the WHO guidelines as an ambient air quality standard for NO2, but NOT for any of the other criteria pollutants, especially as noted in the video that the WHO guidelines for NO2 are controversial (40 µg/m3).

In fact, if Europe had adopted the WHO AQG for the other criteria pollutants, 48% of Europe's urban population would live in an area that exceeds the WHO AQG for PM10, 68% that exceeds PM2.5, 96% that exceeds ozone, and 37% that exceeds SO2. NO2 would be the least of their worries if the WHO guidelines were used for all criteria pollutants.
 
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tikal

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Thanks wxman for the 'make you think' posts that are very useful and frank.


I presume in Europe the majority of modern light duty diesel vehicles (10-15 years or younger) are going to be replaced in the next decade or so by gasoline and gasoline-hybrids without gas particle filters (GPF).


Is the overall air quality and GHG emissions going to improve with the above scenario?
 

rotarykid

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a lot of relevant facts not discussed in that german political piece linked to...


Also the mentioning of CARB not having a UFpm limit leaves out the volumes of reasons this is irrelevant to the US auto/transport market.
1) we have not had any numbers of auto class diesels sold here since 1983 MY, the last year without the truck loophole.....

2) and this is the real biggie, gasoline-powered vehicles make up ~32-37 % while diesel-powered autos make up ~60 % of what is on the roads in germany. None of the diesel vehicles they are talking about banning in certain cities were ever offered, much less ever sold here by any make. So our market in no way is an analog for where they are referring to in this piece of political fluff against diesels in general....

3) as said and as we all here for the most part know our UFpm issue has not a thing to do with the diesel offerings we never were allowed to buy here over the last three plus decades.....diesels which today in the auto class make up less than 0.03 % of what is on the road new today.....


Gasoline powered vehicles today make up 99.97 % of all new offering in the auto class..!!!....Not a lot of clean air to be gotten from the over regulation of diesel powered vehicles not sold here in any numbers for close to 35 years now!!!! .....

FACT if you are going to watch that movie on german government policies being considered you have to know that If we are ever are going to clean up the air here gasoline engine'd vehicles must be required to have the same after-treatment crap they forced onto the miniscule numbers of light duty auto class diesels that were allowed to exist here since their crucification of all diesels by the politically based dieselgate attack
 

flee

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Catching and punishing deliberate long-term cheating is political now?
The achievable standards that were intentionally circumvented were established over
several administrations - that a politically motivated poster sees politics comes as no
surprise.
 

tikal

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Justice needs to be handed every time to the dishonest.


The above is not incompatible with a holistic and scientifically honest assessment of the environmental impact of alternative energy sources for transportation:


https://greet.es.anl.gov/net
 

rotarykid

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Catching and punishing deliberate long-term cheating is political now?
The achievable standards that were intentionally circumvented were established over
several administrations - that a politically motivated poster sees politics comes as no
surprise.

Singling out diesels for punishment not ever given to the many gasoline powered offerings caught doing similar or worse over the years sure as h3ll does make this entire thing a political exercise in the US at least!!!
 
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