Geo Metro diesel...

bhtooefr

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Pretty sure it is the same bolt pattern, but...

The VW EA827 engine is a LOT bigger than the Suzuki G10 or G13. And, it's a LOT heavier. We're literally talking 300-400 pounds versus 100 or so.

Even the EA827-derived 3-cylinder aluminum block 1.2 PD-TDI was over 200 pounds.

I decided long ago that VW didn't make an engine suitable for this.

Optimal would be the ~120 pound Mercedes-Benz OM660, as used in the Smart ForTwo, but...

Keep in mind that my own project has been cancelled, I've moved on to bigger and smaller and better things. ;)
 
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TurbinePower said:
I have to roll my eyes at folks referring to "painstakingly slow acceleration" on these kind of swaps.

But I guess I have a different perspective, I consider my bus' acceleration more than acceptable, with 250hp to move 26k pounds. Over a hundred pounds per horsepower, yet I can merge and cross traffic adequately and safely.
Well where is your cheesy eye rolling face then? Sorry, I need to go faster than 50mph. A 3cyl gas metro will attain 50mpg hwy, anyways....
 

TurbinePower

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Revolutionary_mind said:
Well where is your cheesy eye rolling face then? Sorry, I need to go faster than 50mph. A 3cyl gas metro will attain 50mpg hwy, anyways....
I won't even touch the "need" part of that... but we hit a wall at @65mph. The power is there to get us past that point, but the gearing is so short for quicker takeoffs in-city that the engines are topped out and gasping for top-end breath at that point.

The designers never intended their buses to be used past 45mph, a city-only environment, but we take them on local highways to connect our service area cities. They loaf right along at 35-45, cruising right in the sweet spot for torque and power.
 

VeeDubTDI

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bhtooefr said:
Keep in mind that my own project has been cancelled, I've moved on to bigger and smaller and better things. ;)
I goat powered unicycle? :eek:
 

bhtooefr

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The problem is, they'd fuel themselves off of everything you DON'T want them to be fueled off of.

Want them to eat grain or hay? Nope, they'll go for the neighbor's prize flowers, instead.
 

TurbinePower

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bhtooefr said:
The problem is, they'd fuel themselves off of everything you DON'T want them to be fueled off of.

Want them to eat grain or hay? Nope, they'll go for the neighbor's prize flowers, instead.

This might be a selling point, with some folks and their neighbors...
 

Logdog

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None at this time, but I'm putting a TDI and Toyota 5 speed into my 122 Volvo Wagon.
......Which would most likely result in fresh meat on someone's dinner table and the other person hitchhiking to work the next day.
 

bhtooefr

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TurbinePower said:
This might be a selling point, with some folks and their neighbors...
Nope, because if you want them to do that, they won't do it.

Goats have an extremely uncanny knack for doing exactly the opposite of what you want them to do (and reverse psychology is unreliable at best.) :p
 

Logdog

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None at this time, but I'm putting a TDI and Toyota 5 speed into my 122 Volvo Wagon.
"....unrelaible at best." That sounds like the neighbor with his 30-30.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Logdog said:
......Which would most likely result in fresh meat on someone's dinner table and the other person hitchhiking to work the next day.
That made me laugh out loud.
 
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bhtooefr said:
Nope, because if you want them to do that, they won't do it.

Goats have an extremely uncanny knack for doing exactly the opposite of what you want them to do (and reverse psychology is unreliable at best.) :p
Check your PMs!
Looking for parts!
Thanks
 

greg123

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The main problem that I see is that the Kubota is an antiquated and not particularly efficient engine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a fixed timing injection system not designed for variable advance for load/speed, meaning it's generally used @3,000rpm or similar on tractors or gensets. All the motorcycles I have seen with this fitted only manage 60mpg or so and are heavier than a traditional 1100cc bike which ridden at the same dog slow speeds would also get 60mpg....

By the time you are trying to rev it up and down, spending most of the time outside of it's efficiency range, dragging a heavy (for it) body around I think 2 things will happen. 1) it will go slowly, very slowly. 2) it will struggle to get 60mpg.

Recently in a Octavia II 105pd I was able to cruise over 80mph @ a steady 65mpg (private road...). The way in which the car pulled hard, even with a set of people on board, and got up to outside lane speed on the freeway really made me question my interest in small car projects (of which I'm a fan). Compared to decent modern engine, just because we can find a small diesel and put it in a car, doesn't mean it will be efficient. Moving a small car regularly needs 30hp to generate some sort of acceleration and frankly I think even a 1.9tdi would work out way more economic at generating 30hp across a range of revs than virtually any stationary/genset engine.

The good thing about these engines is that they are small and will fit in a lawnmower. But, they have little development - a purchaser won't spend an extra 1,000 on a 4 valve, all alloy, ecu controled, direct injection, ceramic coated lawnmower. So, he might save a gallon a week mowing his verges, but it's obvious that the cheapest out the box which doesn't break is the point of interest.

This doesn't mean the equasion is the same scaled up to a car, using a top end mower engine may not be a good mix for a low end car....

FWIW, the 1.4 Citroen AX we used to run for a year regularly did 500 mile round trips (every other weekend) as well as 200 commuting each week through windy woods roads. Freeway was at outside lane speed. Average economy was minimum 65mpg. On a long run it would do 71mpg 2 up with luggage. It has CD of 0.30 and weighs 750kg and is a VERY under-rated car. 54hp = 72hp/ton, top speed just under 100mph.

Putting a kubota in I'm sure would only make it worse in every way, so I can't see you getting better figures in the metro and I lost interest in the AX when a UK spec Passat 110 gave me 71mpg at 55mph and averaged 62 on a run, considering it will happy cruise @ 100mph if needed and carry 5 + luggage. The equasion for the difference in fuel makes the AX pointless now and is, ultimately, why I became a tdi man.

Quick note for anyone interested, the 1.4 TUD's have awful alloy block and massive liner trouble. They can be replaced by a cast 1.4GTI block, the 1.5TUD is fine as it has a cast block but it is not quite as economic or 'revvy' as the 1.4, I'm not sure why. Head design and manifold, pump and gearing are all different. Still a good motor though.

I'm still tempted to do something with the one remaining 1.4 TUD3 AX I have, with a spare cast GTi block for it. My target has to be 100mpg though, if it can't hit that, considering what I can get out of a good tdi110 - it's just not worth the effort.

Greg.

bhtooefr said:
OK, I've already posted this to TeamSwift and The Car Lounge (related to the Whoretex)...

Here's the deal. 40 MPG isn't enough. Heck, 50 or 60 MPG isn't enough.

Give me 80 or 90 MPG.

Unfortunately, the Lupo 3L TDI isn't available in the US. And, even if it was, I wouldn't be able to afford it.



So, I have to make my own.

What car did we have in the US that was known for being lightweight, relatively aerodynamic, and super fuel efficient?



I've actually looked up the specs... A stock Geo Metro is slightly worse when it comes to aerodynamics than a Lupo 3L TDI, but it weighs 200 pounds less.

So... that leaves an engine. Which engine, is the question...

I'm thinking Kubota D950. And there's a reason. I've got four of them, three are in non-running tractors, and one is in a derelict wreck that'll never be usable and has very little useful parts. :D

http://media.putfile.com/Kubota-D950-Startup <-- video of the running D950 starting... yes, that's a lot of smoke. I suspect that that engine needs a reringing.

So, today I've been fighting with the engine in the derelict chassis. Got oil, got coolant, got some fresh fuel and additivized (hasn't been run in roughly 2 years), and threw a battery on. Tried to crank and... nothing. :( Turns out, the ignition switch was busted, so I got 12V to the starter, and all that jazz. After various attempts at getting more juice to it, I finally got it turning. Got tiny puffs of grey smoke, but no fire. :(

Anyway, that's not what this thread is about. That's a minor issue.

I need to know if anyone can recommend companies that can make a custom adapter plate, engine mounts, and other necessary stuff to connect this engine to a Suzuki tranny.

It uses a SAE #5 bellhousing, FWIW...
 
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bhtooefr

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The project's dead, although I've been told that my engine DOES have a load-dependent timing advance device of some sort.
 

96passat1z

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*Insert Family Feud "Red X" buzzer sound effect here.*

Trackers and Samurais are longitudinally-mounted 4 cylinders. The Metro is a transverse mounted three cylinder. Totally different animal!
Bummer! I have a running 1Z & 5sp still in a '96 Passat wagon looking for a decent ride to go in, and a neighboring house has a Metro coupe that hasn't been moved in a long time. I guess it isn't meant to be...
 

samuraitd

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Bummer! I have a running 1Z & 5sp still in a '96 Passat wagon looking for a decent ride to go in, and a neighboring house has a Metro coupe that hasn't been moved in a long time. I guess it isn't meant to be...
Don't listen to him. I've been working on my samurais long before I've worked on my vee dubs. The geo motor will bolt straight up to a samurai transmission. In theory, you can use an acme adapter plate to couple the vw motor to the geo transaxle, but you'd be better off swapping in the entire engine and vw transaxle.
 

peterdaniel

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Greenphantom

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I can't believe noboby has brought this up before; bhtooefr have a look at this-
http://www.rqriley.com/cent.html
I have Centurion #4 That I am fixing up at the moment and when I am done with it the car will do over 250mpg :D

Centurion #3 has broke 200mpg at the Toyota Green Grand Prix in upstate New York 2 years in a row now:)

Centurion #2 is located at the Lane Motor Museum in Nashville TN.

Centurion #1 is some where in California last spotted years ago up for auction on Craigslist. this was the car in Total Recall back in the day.

These cars can not be beat for all out fuel economy and cost. They are cheap to build, modify and operate.
 

Greenphantom

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To bad this project is dead I would like to see another Geo Metro Kubota powered car. Kimmer did one back in the day with I think the same sized engine or really close. I don't think he was to impressed with the results though it was really gutless in the Metro. The D1105 T tuned would be a better choice for the Metro I think.
 

geoman

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I have Centurion #4 That I am fixing up at the moment and when I am done with it the car will do over 250mpg :D

Centurion #3 has broke 200mpg at the Toyota Green Grand Prix in upstate New York 2 years in a row now:)

Centurion #2 is located at the Lane Motor Museum in Nashville TN.

Centurion #1 is some where in California last spotted years ago up for auction on Craigslist. this was the car in Total Recall back in the day.

These cars can not be beat for all out fuel economy and cost. They are cheap to build, modify and operate.
please post pics of #4 along the way if you can! heck with that king of mileage you could prob hop in the car & drop them off in my mailbox & still have change left over for coffee!
 

Greenphantom

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I will post some pics of it once it is farther along :) So far just collecting parts for it but hopefully soon maybe by end of summer I will have enough to get some kind of action out of it.
 

Machineman

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Why not just buy a older smart car it has a 800cc 3cyl common rail
With a 6 speed automated manual . Im using one of these engines in my 4x4 golf cart build i bought the whole car for 500 bucks .. just my 2 cents
 

bhtooefr

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Those aren't legal to import into the US, for what it's worth. (Canada allows both European and US spec for safety, and those are European spec, as I understand.)
 
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