Gen II 3.0 speculation(s).

psd1

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Someone has to have some information on how the approval/disapproval of the "fix" hasn't seen the light of day since July. Anyone?
 

psd1

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Nope there won't be any info until there is it's a done deal.
Since I sold my 13 Passat back at the first chance I had, I didnt follow the Gen 2.0 repair. Did they announce approval at the last minute?
 

nanunanu

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Sorry if already discussed, new here, former owner of 2014 TDI Q7. Received first payment, 50% restitution and the bosch settlement check. As to the $500 payments, will my payment be $250 or $500 if these are paid out? Are they automatically paid out as they go or all at once at the end of the 90 days? What type of payment will I receive if the buybacks are initiated due to a failure to complete a fix and will this be paid automatically? thanks in advance for the help.
 

nayr

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I have 26 vehicles at present, a mix of 2.1 SUVs, 2.2 SUVs, and 2PCs.

Per the settlement, the VW's Gen 2.2 fix needs to be approved by CARB/EPA by October 23rd. However, if the fix is not approved by this deadline, there are 2 outcomes:

1. Judge issues a "good faith" extension to VW. VW does not pay owners anything for this extension

2. Judge does not issue an extension to VW. VW pays owners $500 per vehicle per month for up to 3 months.

I assumed that there would be some sort of hearing where the judge/PSC/VW would discuss VW's progress toward finding a fix and then issue a ruling about extension/no extension. But maybe the judge will just issue a statement on the 23rd if the EPA says VW's current fix is unsatisfactory.



Right, I figured there would be some evidence of these filings or a hearing would be held for the parties to discuss fix progress (and whether or not a good faith extension would be granted), but nothing is on the calendar at present.
You dont have a 2.2 SUV and thus your dates are wrong:



They have fixed almost all the 2.0L vehicles and nothing appeared on court schedules, this is not like its my first rodeo here.. what your looking for on the calendar is not indicative of ****.
 
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psd1

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You dont have a 2.2 SUV and thus your dates are wrong:



They have fixed almost all the 2.0L vehicles and nothing appeared on court schedules, this is not like its my first rodeo here.. what your looking for on the calendar is not indicative of ****.
He does have a 2.2 though...
 

nayr

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Oh, I was going by his sidebar.. guess it wont fit his fleet, either way all his frustration is over how much $$$ he can make, whining about how much compensation he's going to get seems pretty ****ing lame since he knew what he was getting into as he amassed this fleet. not like he bought all these before the scandal broke out, dont think he's in much of a position to complain.

My mistake for mistaking his whiney tone for being an original owner with a leg to stand on.
 
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TDIforDays

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Oh, I was going by his sidebar.. guess it wont fit his fleet, either way all his frustration is over how much $$$ he can make, whining about how much compensation he's going to get seems pretty ****ing lame since he knew what he was getting into as he amassed this fleet. not like he bought all these before the scandal broke out, dont think he's in much of a position to complain.

My mistake for mistaking his whiney tone for being an original owner with a leg to stand on.
Agree with you 200%.

I'll just keeping buying all Gen 1s and 2.0s that I can get my hands on and not play this russian roulette.

If they were able to fix 2009 crap Jettas, I am pretty sure they will find a way to fix a 2015 Q7
 

MBQ

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Sorry if already discussed, new here, former owner of 2014 TDI Q7. Received first payment, 50% restitution and the bosch settlement check. As to the $500 payments, will my payment be $250 or $500 if these are paid out? Are they automatically paid out as they go or all at once at the end of the 90 days? What type of payment will I receive if the buybacks are initiated due to a failure to complete a fix and will this be paid automatically? thanks in advance for the help.
All the 500s will be paid to the CURRENT owner at once when s/he sells back the car to VW or get the fix done.
 

MBQ

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Agree with you 200%.
I'll just keeping buying all Gen 1s and 2.0s that I can get my hands on and not play this russian roulette.
If they were able to fix 2009 crap Jettas, I am pretty sure they will find a way to fix a 2015 Q7
Except to different standards/criteria
 
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Fourplay

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Oh, I was going by his sidebar.. guess it wont fit his fleet, either way all his frustration is over how much $$$ he can make, whining about how much compensation he's going to get seems pretty ****ing lame since he knew what he was getting into as he amassed this fleet. not like he bought all these before the scandal broke out, dont think he's in much of a position to complain.
My mistake for mistaking his whiney tone for being an original owner with a leg to stand on.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I definitely have Gen 2.2 SUVs; I have 2x 2015 Cayennes and 3x 2015 Touaregs.

You have an awfully low bar for what constitutes "whining" - merely wondering if there is a way to petition the judge to require VW to pay out if the fix isn't available on time. Should be a concern for all parties that the PSC/judge/VW seem to be a little too buddy-buddy.

I made my money with 2.0Ls and Gen 1s, this is icing on the cake. You seem to be pretty upset at those of us who are doing this for a profit. Why is that? Not enough funds to pursue it yourself? Or just didn't think of it until too late in the game, and now upset that others are profiting when you are not?

As far as being an "original owner", I personally owned several VAG TDIs before the scandal happened (it's the entire reason I was clued in to the "carbitrage" opportunity). Also, I have been very careful in my purchases of the 2.0L and 3.0L cars to only get them from other dealers or auctions. I never was looking to screw individual owners out of their deserved money (just dealers who were uninformed or didn't want to hold the cars long-term), if that's your problem with the whole deal.

Agree with you 200%.
I'll just keeping buying all Gen 1s and 2.0s that I can get my hands on and not play this russian roulette.
If they were able to fix 2009 crap Jettas, I am pretty sure they will find a way to fix a 2015 Q7
Haven't been able to find Gen 1s for reasonable prices in 4+ months. Duvall Ford or another dealer will snatch them up at a price that leaves little room for profit, or will even result in a loss in some cases. As for the 2.0L cars, many have been fixed and the extra layer of sifting required to make $1-2k here and there compared to the risk of buying an ineligible car isn't really worth it to me.

Yeah, going after the Gen 2 cars is risky, but not Russian roulette. The worst case scenario results in a $10k payment on a $25-30k car, which can then be resold for pretty close to what you paid for it. You're looking at a 20-30% ROI for the worst case scenario, and well over 100% in a best case. Honestly, with those odds, why not take a shot?

The crux of the issue lies in the required effectiveness of the fix. Gen 2 3.0L fix will be much more stringent than 2.0L fix. If it doesn't work out, I'll still make a little money, have a dealer license set up, and will have driven some pretty cool cars for free for a year or so. Like I said to nayr, icing on the cake.
 
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Q5TDI

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If they were able to fix 2009 crap Jettas, I am pretty sure they will find a way to fix a 2015 Q7
I would be so sure about that. The 2.0 liter engines utilized a completely different emissions treatment system, namely a NOx storage catalytic converter or a lean NOx trap, or LNT. Maybe some of them had SCR catalysts?

I believe the 3.0 vehicles are all outfitted with SCR catalysts, and that system is more complex than the Lean NOx trap system.

That said, it would seem from my experience/knowledge of the two systems, it SHOULD be easier to make the adjustment on vehicles with SCR catalysts, since the SCR system has a lower impact on fuel economy. Generally speaking, the SCR does a better job of removing NOx.

In view of all the above, I would have thought there would have been an announcement ahead of the October 23 deadline.
 

09tdi

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3 questions:

why Q5 is in the PC group 2.0?

What is the mechanic/emission difference of 2.0, 2.1 and 2.2?

Why Gen 1 still buy back even though VW has an approval fix plan?
 
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Mythdoc

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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Also, I have been very careful in my purchases of the 2.0L and 3.0L cars to only get them from other dealers or auctions. I never was looking to screw individual owners out of their deserved money (just dealers who were uninformed or didn't want to hold the cars long-term), if that's your problem with the whole deal.
I’ve been skeptical that carbitragers we’re doing this. If you have, I applaud your restraint. As an original Touareg owner who added a Q5 to the “fleet,” there is a lingering sadness that these wonderful engines are essentially done in NA, fix or no fix. But that is VWAG’s fault, as we know.
 

Q5TDI

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3 questions:

why Q5 is in the PC group 2.0?

What is the mechanic/emission difference of 2.0, 2.1 and 2.2?

Why Gen 1 still buy back even though VW has an approval fix plan?
Those are good questions. I was trying to track that info down. Was most curious why the PC group was last of the group. Maybe it was simply a way to manage the process in smaller groups.
 

psd1

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Oh, I was going by his sidebar.. guess it wont fit his fleet, either way all his frustration is over how much $$$ he can make, whining about how much compensation he's going to get seems pretty ****ing lame since he knew what he was getting into as he amassed this fleet. not like he bought all these before the scandal broke out, dont think he's in much of a position to complain.

My mistake for mistaking his whiney tone for being an original owner with a leg to stand on.
Again we have to bust balls? Is it relevant why he purchased cars? Does it mean he is less deserving? You're so quick to bust balls you chose not to even read his post.

I would guess the legal standard applies to those that were original owners as well as current owners, regardless of their reason to purchase vehicles.
 

09tdi

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VW already has an approval fix plan but why they still have buy back options for the Gen 1? If they have an approval fix plan for Gen1, they will have it for Gen 2. The key is that what forces them to have a buy back option. I am new here and review all the posts and can not find an answer.




Those are good questions. I was trying to track that info down. Was most curious why the PC group was last of the group. Maybe it was simply a way to manage the process in smaller groups.
 

MBQ

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VW already has an approval fix plan but why they still have buy back options for the Gen 1? If they have an approval fix plan for Gen1, they will have it for Gen 2. The key is that what forces them to have a buy back option. I am new here and review all the posts and can not find an answer.
They don't. They have a fix plan(to a lower standard) for 2 litter gen 1, not 3 litter gen 1.
 

Careby

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...If they were able to fix 2009 crap Jettas, I am pretty sure they will find a way to fix a 2015 Q7
No TDI Jettas have been repaired to comply with their original emissions standards, let alone the tighter standards that Gen 2 3.0 vehicles will have to meet.
I remain skeptical of an emissions compliant repair for 3.0 cars for one simple reason - if they can do it now, why did they need to cheat? There must have been some reason for the cheating.

What engineering problem did it solve? Cost savings? Apparently the fix for at least some 3.0 vehicles is expected to be software only, which in my mind rules out cost reduction as a likely reason. Fuel economy? The numbers used for marketing are from the EPA tests, during which the cars should not have been cheating. Real world fuel economy might benefit from the cheat, but marketing would not. Performance? That doesn't seem likely to me, given the fact that most owners don't push their cars to the limit.

The only thing that makes sense to me as a reason for cheating is reduced DEF consumption, which translates into a longer service interval in between DEF tank refills and reduced wear and tear on the SCR system. Maybe the cheat was cheaper than re-engineering a larger DEF tank, or a more durable SCR system. And this is what worries me about an emissions compliant repair that doesn't also address those issues.

DEF refill on my Touareg (which does not have Audi's external fill feature) is awkward, particularly if the cargo area is not empty. If DEF consumption increases significantly after the repair, refills are going to be annoying. Some have suggested it won't increase that much, based on the 2.0 SCR fixes, but I don't think that's a relevant comparison since those "fixed" cars are not emissions compliant.

As I see it, the question, which should be answered soon, is whether CARB and EPA consider DEF service interval and SCR system lifetime when they decide whether to approve VW's repair.
 
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bhuizer

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DEF usage is something I've thought about as well. As an owner, I wouldn't be too concerned about the DEF tank needing refilled at 5k miles or so. Anything less than 5k would be an annoyance. My Dads new 6.7 F250 needs refilled every 4-5 tanks of fuel. Filling the tank is easy and relatively cheap. Other than the DEF injectors/pump being cycled more I don't think that has much effect on the reliability either.

However, I don't recall reading anything in the court documents about maintaining current DEF usage as a requirement. So if there is a fix without a larger SCR system installed, DEF usage will definitely go up.

For reference, the off-highway CAT engines that we use in machines at the OEM I work for have up to 3% DEF usage. So for every 100 gallons of fuel they will use 3-gallons of DEF depending how you are using the machines. If my Touareg followed those stats, I would use approx 11-gallons of DEF every 10k miles. So needless to say, these 3.0's are well below what is typical.

Since everything has been radio-silent from VAG and the EPA I'm starting to think a fix isn't coming.
 
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Mythdoc

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What engineering problem did it solve? Cost savings? Apparently the fix for at least some 3.0 vehicles is expected to be software only, which in my mind rules out cost reduction as a likely reason.
Bingo! The cheat was all about two cost related things, which is clear if you (like me) had nothing better to do than read every article about dieselgate since it started.

1) Cost savings in the form of cheaper emissions hardware because Winterkorn wanted the cheapest possible emissions hardware that would still hold up for most drivers during the vehicle warranty.

2) Winterkorn worried that if the system pumped enough AdBlue to meet standards, either a larger tank would have to be installed or drivers would need to refill the AdBlue sooner than the 10,000 mile service interval, which he thought would lower sales. So they cheated in order to ship a smaller tank and keep to the interval.

Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that a fix is possible, particularly in conjunction with a replacement catalyst or a quicker refill interval.
 

Fourplay

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Bingo! The cheat was all about two cost related things, which is clear if you (like me) had nothing better to do than read every article about dieselgate since it started.
1) Cost savings in the form of cheaper emissions hardware because Winterkorn wanted the cheapest possible emissions hardware that would still hold up for most drivers during the vehicle warranty.
2) Winterkorn worried that if the system pumped enough AdBlue to meet standards, either a larger tank would have to be installed or drivers would need to refill the AdBlue sooner than the 10,000 mile service interval, which he thought would lower sales. So they cheated in order to ship a smaller tank and keep to the interval.
Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that a fix is possible, particularly in conjunction with a replacement catalyst or a quicker refill interval.
This article isn't cited nearly enough, so will post again:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertel...eselgate-scandal-stadler-soiled/#1476a95255f5

A fix may be technically possible, but the DEF tank will need to be refilled every other tank of diesel, which doesn't seem feasible for owners. The tanks were not designed to be easily refilled, especially on the larger SUVs.

Gotta say, I can't see soccer moms crawling around in the rear cargo area trying to fill up their DEF tank at a gas station while truckers leer at them. Seems like it could be a sticking point for this "fix".

Just 10 days remain until VW is late.

For reference, the off-highway CAT engines that we use in machines at the OEM I work for have up to 3% DEF usage. So for every 100 gallons of fuel they will use 3-gallons of DEF depending how you are using the machines. If my Touareg followed those stats, I would use approx 11-gallons of DEF every 10k miles. So needless to say, these 3.0's are well below what is typical.
Per Audi/VW engineers, DEF usage to bring nitrogen oxides down to allowable levels is 8L/1000km, while highway fuel consumption is 81L/1000km. So nearly 10% DEF usage. Seems like the engine itself may be flawed in design if it is producing that quantity of nitrogen oxides.
 
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MBQ

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Yes but the question is they did not address the DEF problem explicitly in the settlement. It's not even mentioned that DEF usage frequency is a criteria for performance.

So an approved fix is still a crapshoot. It depends upon whether the PSC lawyers truly work for the class members or not. But they got their retirement checks already, right?
 

Careby

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...Per Audi/VW engineers, DEF usage to bring nitrogen oxides down to allowable levels is 8L/1000km, while highway fuel consumption is 81L/1000km. So nearly 10% DEF usage. Seems like the engine itself may be flawed in design if it is producing that quantity of nitrogen oxides.
It may have less to do with the engine and more to do with the emissions standards these vehicles are required to meet. DEF consumption comparisons with large trucks or off-highway machines are not really apples-to-apples, since they have different standards. And comparisons with other brand diesel cars and SUVs assume that no cheating is happening there, and I'm not at all sure that's a correct assumption.

At any rate I am not going to be very happy with a fix that requires me to remove my spare tire every month.
 

tdi_sport

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Read the article. I found it strange.

My 335d (3.0 litre v6) doesnt need def nearly as often as the article stated on audi’s own 3.0 litre diesels.

The teck cant be so far apart. Wouldnt be hard to deconstruct abd rebuild a similar scr/dpf system.

I fould the article difficult to believe. Really hope its fake news.
 

Fourplay

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Read the article. I found it strange.

My 335d (3.0 litre v6) doesnt need def nearly as often as the article stated on audi’s own 3.0 litre diesels.

The teck cant be so far apart. Wouldnt be hard to deconstruct abd rebuild a similar scr/dpf system.

I fould the article difficult to believe. Really hope its fake news.
Haven't taken chemistry in a decade, so forgive any bad math, but it seems like you can approximate the required amount of DEF.

2 (NH2)2CO + 3 NO2 →  3 1⁄2 N2 + 4  H2O + 2 CO2

Tier 2, Bin 6 allows 0.08g/mi, assume 45 mph and 40x the legal limit without any SCR. That's 144g/hr of nitrogen oxides.

144g of nitrogen oxides is 3.13 moles (assuming NO2), so you'd need 2.086 moles of urea to counteract this, which is 125g of urea.

DEF is 32.5% urea by volume, so 325mL (or cm^3) of urea per liter of DEF. The density of urea is 1.32g/cm^3, so there are 429g of urea per liter of DEF.

429g of urea / 125g per hour = 3.432 hours * 45 mph = 1 L of DEF every 154 miles.

16L tank * 154 miles per L = 2471 miles to empty.

That's making a lot of assumptions (including that an engine with any SCR is only emitting at 40x the legal limit), but the VW engineers statements seem like they are realistic. Not to mention that these statements were part of legal discovery for a trial in Germany, so are almost certainly not "fake news".
 

tdi_sport

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Haven't taken chemistry in a decade, so forgive any bad math, but it seems like you can approximate the required amount of DEF.

2 (NH2)2CO + 3 NO2 →  3 1⁄2 N2 + 4  H2O + 2 CO2

Tier 2, Bin 6 allows 0.08g/mi, assume 45 mph and 40x the legal limit without any SCR. That's 144g/hr of nitrogen oxides.

144g of nitrogen oxides is 3.13 moles (assuming NO2), so you'd need 2.086 moles of urea to counteract this, which is 125g of urea.

DEF is 32.5% urea by volume, so 325mL (or cm^3) of urea per liter of DEF. The density of urea is 1.32g/cm^3, so there are 429g of urea per liter of DEF.

429g of urea / 125g per hour = 3.432 hours * 45 mph = 1 L of DEF every 154 miles.

16L tank * 154 miles per L = 2471 miles to empty.

That's making a lot of assumptions (including that an engine with any SCR is only emitting at 40x the legal limit), but the VW engineers statements seem like they are realistic. Not to mention that these statements were part of legal discovery for a trial in Germany, so are almost certainly not "fake news".

Bmw must be paying their bribes on time?
 
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